Search on Personal Information Based on NIC

[raniwza]

Hi

I have always wondered if Home Office has the ability to search and interprete information based on individuals' National Insurance Contribution number given to them?

Are there such resources employed by Home Office that will go into detail finding if someone, say on student visa on PhD (doctorate degree) works over 20 hours a week? Because having considered the structure of a course (when length of studies differ significantly for different courses), that international student can work 40 hours a week when there are no classes i.e term break or when completing a dissertation period? Furthermore, how do you define term break or vacation period? It is not very clear what to expect as when you can work for more that 20 hours or not. For some people, not having classes for that week means a break ie no attendances required for a certain course.

Is that 20 hour a week rule is literally 20 hour a week or it is just a guideline for over say, 3 months of course (term time) i.e somebody can work one week full time if there are no classes structured to attend in that particular course therefore 0 hours on other weeks when there are indeed classes compulsorily to attend everyday during a certain week?

After all, if NIC will only provide information on how much salary a person gets (if this is true?), sometimes people can get paid say, £7.50 an hour to £30 an hour dependant on that what job and whether the job uses/requires certain level of qualifications or experiences/expertise or not. Hence, how will officers in charge would be able to tell how many hours a person work? Would it not cost Home Office more money to go into details and asks for more information from different employers that individual might have worked for?

Any thoughts?

Thanks
raniwza

[maveli62]

This may give some clue. However I don't know how they calculated the hours worked from Ni contribution

LONDON -- Reports have emerged that two students, returning after holidays from Kerala have been deported on the basis that they have violated the working hour norms set out for students by the Home Office.

Deportation of students on account of working more than 20 hours was something which we have just heard of before, but it is now evident as there is first hand information that two Keralite students were sent off after their visa being cancelled. One of them was sent off from the Heathrow airport and the other one from Gatwick (he must have mistakenly thought it a safer port).

One of them who arrived at the airport in the evening was sent back forcefully next day morning. They had to go through the agony of interrogation, detention and at the end a forceful sent-off without being allowed to covey information outside the airport.



According to the reports he was caught red handed by the immigration officials with regard to him working for more than the allotted hours and their records revealed even his nature of contract with his employer.

Ironically both of them had Visas till mid 2008. The big question remains how can they regain their certificates and other stuffs they left in the UK.

The incidents show blatantly the sharing of information between the Inland Revenue Department and the Immigration and Nationality Directorate to keep a check on the violation of immigration rules. This also shows the tightening up of immigration rules for students.

The amount of National Insurance (NI) contributions are been verified by the Home Office, and in any case unfortunately if the data goes against the permitted working hours, termination of leave seems imminent. This is what would have happened in the above cases.

The immigration rules which a student is supposed to skip through before applying for leave specifically forbids the community to work for more than 20 hours a week during term time. Students are banned from doing business or taking full time employment unless it is been a part of curriculum which lead them to graduation.

This all points out to the intention of Home Office while granting student leave, it is for the sole purpose of attainment of UK education. (let alone the worthiness of the same, which we can discuss later in other occasion).

Students need to be aware that the Home Office will not necessarily track down persons who have worked for more than 20 hours when they are in the UK. The individual's records are checked either when they approach the Home office for renewal of visas or when they go for holidays and return, which is the case here with the two students.

The students who have returned to India has advised their mates here, "It is to be noted that Home office is not to be underestimated. Such a view is erroneous. We are monitored at every action. We are perpetually under their scanner. Our escapes are their allowances and not their mistakes. Any one of us can be the next in queue if not sooner surely later".

[try-one]

The rule is 20 hrs for as long as your visa is valid (as long as you are studying at the place you originally mentioned during the visa application). It is not flexible rule or a sugestion as to how many hours are recommended.
Many people have been removed after breaking this rule.
NIC and payslips have the hability of showing how many hours you have worked; in my case I get a flat fee regarding the hours (full time employment); but the system, the payslip and the NIC has the hability to show how many hours, hourly rate and final pay.

[sakura]

Don't you get payslips? They always show (at least mine does) the number of hours worked or contracted hours, and the hourly rate. Mine also shows the number of hours worked so far in the financial year. So, if I was an International student and showed them my monthly payslips, it would (or should) have my total monthly hours worked.

As for how many hours you can work - you can work up to 40 hours during Christmas, Easter and Summer breaks, and no other time, even if you have one week off without classes (which, actually, is Reading Week - or some other name - but is not a 'term break' as such).

BUT - if you are a research student, or if you have a dissertation, clearly you do NOT have Summer breaks (i.e. a Master's course is 12 months, and during the Summer, unlike Bachelor's courses, you actually write up your dissertation), so clearly if you are doing a Master's or higher (including PhD) you can not work full-time during the summer. Dissertation is a full-time period of study - many people don't know that - so they cannot work more than 20 hours.

20 hours is the rule, and normally - break it, get caught, get deported. I read on another post the BIA are now checking NI and payslips to verify things - and of course they can contact other relevant departments, or even your workplace.

[Dawie]

The information you see on your payslip is not the same information that the Inland Revenue sees. The information that Inland Revenue sees is more or less what you see on your P60 form at the end of each tax year.

Furthermore, although your employer has to hand over the PAYE tax that they collect from you every month, Inland Revenue has no idea what proportion of the all the PAYE tax your employer hands over to them is allocated to each employee until the end of the tax year when all the P60's are handed in.

Therefore realistically Inland Revenue, and therefore the Home Office, can only really build up a picture of your tax affairs at the end of each tax year. But even then they have no way of knowing how many hours you have worked.

Bear in mind the 20 hour rule does not apply during holidays when students may work as many hours as they wish.

[Jeff Albright]

Therefore realistically Inland Revenue, and therefore the Home Office, can only really build up a picture of your tax affairs at the end of each tax year. But even then they have no way of knowing how many hours you have worked.
Bear in mind the 20 hour rule does not apply during holidays when students may work as many hours as they wish.

Totally agree to this. I have received exactly the same information from someone before, who knew the details.

So I gather it would have been very difficult for the Home Office to get to those guys without a tip-off.

[Dawie]

Therefore realistically Inland Revenue, and therefore the Home Office, can only really build up a picture of your tax affairs at the end of each tax year. But even then they have no way of knowing how many hours you have worked.
Bear in mind the 20 hour rule does not apply during holidays when students may work as many hours as they wish.

Totally agree to this. I have received exactly the same information from someone before, who knew the details.

So I gather it would have been very difficult for the Home Office to get to those guys without a tip-off.

I agree, a tip-off is the most likely reason for these people getting busted.

For the same reasons outlined above, it is nearly impossible for the Home Office to police and prevent people on 2 year working holiday visas from working more than the 12 month limit.

The 12 months can be worked on and off during the 2 year period, so you could work one month, take one month off, etc. However there is simply no way for the Home Office (or Inland Revenue) to tell just from looking at your tax records how many hours you have worked.

The tax system is not designed to record how many hours people work and therefore any attempt to try and infer how many hours someone has worked by looking at their tax records is speculative at best.

[raniwza]

WOW!! I am impressed on how much responds we are getting from this topic - The reason I put this topic forward is because there are so many rules that we get confused ourselves.

I am considering to apply for a permanent residence status based under 10 years long residence. And I have a few friends who'd already got them. Looking at their cases, they have been living in the UK under different visas; spouse visa, student and working holidays visas-i have wondered how would Home Office manage to see if their status during 10 years are violated because they had lived under different rules including that 20 hour rule?

Furthermore, how would you know if somebody is on holiday or not? Different courses certainly have different length of structure-i know a few courses run 3 months study and 3 months holidays etc. How would you consider a course start or finish if different courses start or finish differently? And how would you justify (my cousin) who had finished her course in December and was given clearance until July for a graduation day? Can she work full time during that 7 months (no study commitment whatsoever)!

In regards to payslips, why would you want to keep all of your monthly or weekly records unless if they are recent employment? Who would bother to keep tap? Surely you would have salary calculated on your P60 yearly but there are no indication of hours and how much you are being paid per hour?

Is this why we have different outcomes for same application and circumstances - at discretionary of case worker? Does it mean bias in the system?

[sakura]

WOW!! I am impressed on how much responds we are getting from this topic - The reason I put this topic forward is because there are so many rules that we get confused ourselves.

I am considering to apply for a permanent residence status based under 10 years long residence. And I have a few friends who'd already got them. Looking at their cases, they have been living in the UK under different visas; spouse visa, student and working holidays visas-i have wondered how would Home Office manage to see if their status during 10 years are violated because they had lived under different rules including that 20 hour rule?

Furthermore, how would you know if somebody is on holiday or not? Different courses certainly have different length of structure-i know a few courses run 3 months study and 3 months holidays etc. How would you consider a course start or finish if different courses start or finish differently? And how would you justify (my cousin) who had finished her course in December and was given clearance until July for a graduation day? Can she work full time during that 7 months (no study commitment whatsoever)!

In regards to payslips, why would you want to keep all of your monthly or weekly records unless if they are recent employment? Who would bother to keep tap? Surely you would have salary calculated on your P60 yearly but there are no indication of hours and how much you are being paid per hour?

Is this why we have different outcomes for same application and circumstances - at discretionary of case worker? Does it mean bias in the system?

Yeah well obviously I didn't mean keep all your payslips from the past 10 years. Of course it is recent payslips I am referring to.

As for when you can or cannot work full-time - well, it depends on your type of course. If you provide more information then I can ascertain. But - for PhD students it is more complex because of the nature of study - you generally do not have any lectures or classes, but you are still supposed to spend the equivalent of "full-time study" on your thesis. So, really, your period for full-time work would be the official term breaks, such as Christmas and Easter. Summer (3 months) does not count because the course of study is 3 full years, which, unlike Bachelor's, still includes study during the Summer. This is written also in the UKCOSA guidelines, if you want more details.

About your cousin - has she been working full-time during the 7 months since her course finished, or are you just asking?

[jes2jes]

The information you see on your payslip is not the same information that the Inland Revenue sees. The information that Inland Revenue sees is more or less what you see on your P60 form at the end of each tax year.

Furthermore, although your employer has to hand over the PAYE tax that they collect from you every month, Inland Revenue has no idea what proportion of the all the PAYE tax your employer hands over to them is allocated to each employee until the end of the tax year when all the P60's are handed in.

Therefore realistically Inland Revenue, and therefore the Home Office, can only really build up a picture of your tax affairs at the end of each tax year. But even then they have no way of knowing how many hours you have worked.

Bear in mind the 20 hour rule does not apply during holidays when students may work as many hours as they wish.

Someone asked me this question yesterday and since I was no accountant I referred this to my CA younger brother. He collaborated the above and also said that, the Information for a tax year is not available to the IR until the end of the tax year i.e in April. So in short, the BIA cannot tell how many hours an individual is working until they receive such info. But he also mentioned that, they can get IR contributions from previous years and used that for their estimates and there lie the beast of catching up with people.

[Wanderer]

The information you see on your payslip is not the same information that the Inland Revenue sees. The information that Inland Revenue sees is more or less what you see on your P60 form at the end of each tax year.

Furthermore, although your employer has to hand over the PAYE tax that they collect from you every month, Inland Revenue has no idea what proportion of the all the PAYE tax your employer hands over to them is allocated to each employee until the end of the tax year when all the P60's are handed in.

Therefore realistically Inland Revenue, and therefore the Home Office, can only really build up a picture of your tax affairs at the end of each tax year. But even then they have no way of knowing how many hours you have worked.

Bear in mind the 20 hour rule does not apply during holidays when students may work as many hours as they wish.

Someone asked me this question yesterday and since I was no accountant I referred this to my CA younger brother. He collaborated the above and also said that, the Information for a tax year is not available to the IR until the end of the tax year i.e in April. So in short, the BIA cannot tell how many hours an individual is working until they receive such info. But he also mentioned that, they can get IR contributions from previous years and used that for their estimates and there lie the beast of catching up with people.

But if a student has earnings of say 30k pa visible to the IR there's a fair chance more than 20hrs pw were worked to earn that amount.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

As an employer you do not report the number of hours worked, even at the end of the year. You just report the person's gross salary and what you have deducted (if any) for National Insurance and PAYE, and any benefits the person was "paid".

Some students may be able to get jobs which pay a lot more than minimum wage, but they will be rare. Most students will be paid somewhere near minimum wage.

[sashank]

that international student can work 40 hours a week when there are no classes i.e term break or when completing a dissertation period?
Any thoughts?

Where did you get this 40 hrs line? I understand that there is 20 hrs rule during term time but full time during holiday or term break.

As per the april/07 IDI, Chapter 3,Section 3

Students over the age of 16 who are on code 2 conditions may take part-time or full
time vacation work without needing to seek the permission of the local Jobcentre.
Similarly they will be able to take up work placements which are part of a sandwich
course or to undertake internship placements without the need to obtain permission
from Work Permits (UK).
Students should not work for more than 20 hours a week during term time, except
where a work placement meets the definition of a sandwich course or internship
(please see paragraphs 18.2 and 18.3 below for these definitions). They may work
full time during their vacation period and during the additional 2 or 4 months following
completion of their studies whilst waiting for their examination results, prior to
attending their graduation ceremony or before commencement of their new course. A
student must not engage in business, self-employment or the provision of services as
a professional sports person or entertainer. A student is not permitted to pursue a
career by filling a permanent full-time vacancy.

Any one would like to clarify if this is not 40 hrs but full time hours therefore there is no restriction on hours during vacation.

Thanking in advance
SAS

[Wanderer]

that international student can work 40 hours a week when there are no classes i.e term break or when completing a dissertation period?
Any thoughts?

Where did you get this 40 hrs line? I understand that there is 20 hrs rule during term time but full time during holiday or term break.

As per the april/07 IDI, Chapter 3,Section 3

Students over the age of 16 who are on code 2 conditions may take part-time or full
time vacation work without needing to seek the permission of the local Jobcentre.
Similarly they will be able to take up work placements which are part of a sandwich
course or to undertake internship placements without the need to obtain permission
from Work Permits (UK).
Students should not work for more than 20 hours a week during term time, except
where a work placement meets the definition of a sandwich course or internship
(please see paragraphs 18.2 and 18.3 below for these definitions). They may work
full time during their vacation period and during the additional 2 or 4 months following
completion of their studies whilst waiting for their examination results, prior to
attending their graduation ceremony or before commencement of their new course. A
student must not engage in business, self-employment or the provision of services as
a professional sports person or entertainer. A student is not permitted to pursue a
career by filling a permanent full-time vacancy.

Any one would like to clarify if this is not 40 hrs but full time hours therefore there is no restriction on hours during vacation.

Thanking in advance

SAS

Isn't there the EU restriction on working week, 48 hours?

Dunno how's applied tho - I do loads of hours cos I'm a contractor!

[raniwza]

Hiya

I am just piling up questions my friends have been wondered about and post them (the ones relevant under this work without permission required/under this topic).

I mean working 40 hrs for term break=vacation period (summer,easter etc) - well now I know that writing up dissertation period is NOT considered a vacation period, a friend was asking the other day. She has got extension to write up her dissertation but did not know whether she could work full time.

Yes, my cousin did work during those 7 months before she graduated but she also was lucky enough to finally found an employer who would sponsor her work permit after the graduation. (She has been on work permit for 2 years now).

Another friend, she will almost be on the same boat as some of us getting the 10 year long residence next year, she had worked for one year full time under her sandwich course. Therefore, when she graduated it was easy for her to land on temporary accountant contracts which she did over vacation periods etc. Even at one time she managed to gain work with employer whom had been willing to be flexible with her therefore letting her stay working full time over the 3 month break waiting for results and work part time during her 3 month course (chartered accountant course) under her student visa. (This course is generally alternate 3 month course, exam then holidays and so on.)

She also managed to get paid pretty high per hour due to her experiences and qualification. How would Home Office justify her hours based on her year end salary when she is earning so much whilst conforming to the rules of the hours on student visa? Bear in mind she had spouse visa at a point of time not a student visa etc. She had also told me that at one time she worked temporarily for a firm during summer break who was applying for her work permit. But what happened was. they could not meet the criterias, the application had been refused. HOWEVER, they were kind enough to pay her 3 month worth of salary without having to come in to work as some sort of compensation/good work she had done etc. How would Home Office know this? Would she have trouble applying for that permanent residence next year?

Nevertheless, as long as someone has letters from the schools/colleges/universities confirming full attendance covering that 10 years; think there shouldn't be a problem? After all these are the hard evidences rather than speculation on P60?

Any thoughts?

Thanks

[Dawie]

that international student can work 40 hours a week when there are no classes i.e term break or when completing a dissertation period?
Any thoughts?

Where did you get this 40 hrs line? I understand that there is 20 hrs rule during term time but full time during holiday or term break.

As per the april/07 IDI, Chapter 3,Section 3

Students over the age of 16 who are on code 2 conditions may take part-time or full
time vacation work without needing to seek the permission of the local Jobcentre.
Similarly they will be able to take up work placements which are part of a sandwich
course or to undertake internship placements without the need to obtain permission
from Work Permits (UK).
Students should not work for more than 20 hours a week during term time, except
where a work placement meets the definition of a sandwich course or internship
(please see paragraphs 18.2 and 18.3 below for these definitions). They may work
full time during their vacation period and during the additional 2 or 4 months following
completion of their studies whilst waiting for their examination results, prior to
attending their graduation ceremony or before commencement of their new course. A
student must not engage in business, self-employment or the provision of services as
a professional sports person or entertainer. A student is not permitted to pursue a
career by filling a permanent full-time vacancy.

Any one would like to clarify if this is not 40 hrs but full time hours therefore there is no restriction on hours during vacation.

Thanking in advance

SAS

Isn't there the EU restriction on working week, 48 hours?

Dunno how's applied tho - I do loads of hours cos I'm a contractor!

I think only the French pay much attention to that. And it's 35 hours, isn't it?

[avjones]

No, the maximum working week is 48 hours. It's an EU directive, and incorporated into UK law. In some circs, it can be waived.

[zara]

if a person has ni number and is overstayed can he still work or he will get caught cos he worked on his NI will that trigger anything

[SYH]

if a person has ni number and is overstayed can he still work or he will get caught cos he worked on his NI will that trigger anything

Are you serious?
If you have overstayed, then you shouldn't work. Pretty simple
You could probably still work but you know they are trying to connect the system together so that they can track via your NIN so to be contemplating such a scenario is just daft.

[Wanderer]

if a person has ni number and is overstayed can he still work or he will get caught cos he worked on his NI will that trigger anything

If he's overstayed he's in trouble and if he's working too he's in double trouble.

Employers are in perilous waters if caught employing illegals - the net will close....

[VictoriaS]

The problem with this situation is that it's not up to the Home Office to prove that the student was breaking the law, it is up to the student to prove that he wasn't. I have known students be refused extensions because they have submitted payslips which are deemed 'too high'. For example, a guy who was working within the rules but was being paid £14 per hour as an IT consultant. He won his appeal because he proved his hourly rate. The Home Office will assume that anything which amounts to much more than minimum wage is suspicious, so if you are in this situation you should send an employer's letter confirming salary along with your application.

They are checking IR records more and more, so it is best to have everything covered.

Victoria

[raniwza]

Sorry Dawie - I got the 40 hours as basis average full time hours-remembered that my last employments under spouse visa/vacation periods vary from 37.5, 35 and 45 hours. These are just double the 20 hours (part time) equals full time - if you catch my drift?

Hope it is clearer now. Overstaying is bad news mate - but if you are under appeal process it is a lawful/legal stay because Home Office is aware you are stucked waiting for them to come back for you. You could continue with your previous visa granted to you, as some people are told

[raniwza]

Thanks Victoria

Would you know if I have to contact all of employers I had been working for during my 10 years of stay? I can contact my most recent ones but the ones whom are from years before would be a bit tricky under my case. Although I have some of payslips - there are payslips in the past that only says 1.00 under hours column - think it means 1 month but there are no indication of number of hours. I would think the employer might have forgotten the number of hours i have worked? What other ways i can resolve this?

Please advise?

Thanks

[VictoriaS]

I can't advise you on this. You need to decide if there is anything which indicates that you have been working illegally in the past. However, it is a good rule of theumb that if you have been granted a visa extension in the past then they are unlikely to investigate before this.

Victoria

[raniwza]

Thanks Victoria

I have contacted the employers on my P60 for the past 2 years and they are issuing me the letters now to confirm hours according to Home Office rules.

About the pay, one of them cannot confirm because they pay me fixed monthly regardless number of hours I worked because I won't be at work when attending classes therefore usually limit to 20 hours a week. With them being a small firm ; sometimes the practice manager had the authority/flexibility to let us go home early on fridays.

Will this be sufficient?