Post
by mon-keyhanger » Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:21 pm
SECOND ATTEMPT AT POSTING
SHORTENED VERSION
REPLY FROM SIGNPOST SERVICES
Enquiry
42602: I am a EE national from UK. I have been told by Spanish Embassy in Kuwait that there is no such thing as an application for spouse of EE/EEA national schengen visa. The suggestion of it existing and being FREE certainly was greeted with absolute dismissal.
She submitted an application. On this application it stated in Spanish that certain parts did not require completion if this was an application from the spouse of an EE/EAA national, this was subsequently not accepted as application was not complete. Parts in question -accom. finance etc.
Evidence of a 10 year marriage was shown (original certificate)authorised attesting etc My female spouse is of Philipines nationality with current multi-entry visa for UK.
I did hear in the background comments(en espanol) of our application mentioning the fact my spouse is Filipino. Comments to me when I asking why my spouse couldn't apply on the fact she is a spouse of EU/EEA national, I was greeted with "But she a Filipino" If Philippines Nationals are excluded from the domain of SPOUSES OF EE/EEA Nationals, why isn't this a catergorical statement. Does a spouse of EE/EEA national category exist let alone a FREE visa one? If it doesn't, why issue all these Schengen directives saying it does?
I accept that the spouse of EE?EEA national application may be the same physical application as normal schengen tourist visa, but why have all the relevant conditions of being a spouse of EE/EEA national ignored if they are on the form for a reason? One last question that I don't seriously expect to be replied to. Even though consular officials have a very tough old job to do that is absolutely necessary, why do they think that all applicants are stupid?
Reply
Thank you for your inquiry.
I am surprised to learn about your difficulty, which I imagine has probably arisen due to the unfamiliarity in the Consulate with the provisions of Directive 2004/38/EC.
In reading your inquiry, I see that you have already provided proof of your relationship (the marriage certificate). This, together with your passports (your and your wife’s), should have been sufficient. You might also wish to include a copy of the air tickets to illustrate that both you and your wife will be travelling together.
Your wife should be allowed entry, irrespective of her nationality. It is the fact that she is the wife of an EU national that matters.
Regarding the cost of the visa for your wife, once again, as she is your wife the visa should be free.
If your wife is refused a visa for any reason, the reason must be explained unless it is due to national security provisions.
________
We did submit hotel- flight tkts- insurance receipts -both names where
possible. THE POINT IS THE EMBASSY SAID NO SUCH ROUTE TO A VISA HERE. She couldn't be refused on that route because there would be no application---THEY ONLY accept applications with no consideration that my spouse is married to EE national. If we don't put an application in without the spouse of an EE national - THERE WON"T BE AN APPLICATION. The Signpost people just don't get it! WE KNOW WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN BUT ITS NOT. I'm sure she will not be refused a visa but that not the point is it- the point is SHE CAN"T GET AN APPLICATION STARTED AS a NON EE SPOUSE OF EE NATIONAL
Interesting to UK nationals and justice seekers. I was told by an official on my perseverence this interesting tidbit. (liability fears force me not to state who etc.)
It is a question of repricosity- as the British Embassy ignore the Schengen/EE/EEA free spouse route to visa- so does the Spanish Embassy! ---I don't think this is local to Kuwait Spanish Embassy as other posts have stated similar problems.
The Spanish Embassies outside EE logically will only get spouses of Brits applying or the odd other non- Schengen signatory nations (Norway Ireland Swiss not sure who they at moment) who are thin on the ground, as non ee spouses of other signatory nationals use their own Embassy by default. It therefore quite easy to have blanket contrived staff ignorance on 2004/38/EU etc
My thoughts now.
A spouse of a Spanish national for example needs to pay upto 120KD-about 230 pounds depending on visa applied for. (the Brits would say this is legal because there isn't a schengen visa to apply for)
The Schengen group generously offer benefits to include nations not in Schengen group channeled through EE/EEA provisions and ammendments gathering strength as it goes even being transposed into individual statutes of member states. (Is this a pressure ploy to "encourage membership" by its obvious resulting friction or generosity- who knows)
I symphathise with the Spanish attitude.
I symphathise with the UK Embassy's attitude. (even though they are guilty of grabbing hefty unjustified fees- I know I paid it also for my spouse- not just other EE nats.
I think there are 3 semantics of debate here in total confusion.
EE freedom of movement/Schengen freedom of movement/national interests.
The semantic or the meanings of each are not mutual. These mutually exclusive semantics although bound by some common needs are being confused and being used in an arena of interpretation that doesn't allow transfer across the domains easily.
On one level the discussion is fraught with errors of apparent common but exclusive meanings. I won't attempt it here. Thats why we put those bl**dy politicians and eurocrats there in first place it was supposed to be their job to sort these things out before problems such as this.
I'll look at the practical bit.
May I propose for the sake of argument that legally British Embassies can charge non-EE spouses of EE nats if they apply in their own right as foreign nationals. Maybe there is a Family member of EE nationals permit. The UK doesn't issue Schengen NON EE spouse visas. How could they? They are not Schengen signatories. They have never professed to offer anything like a Free visa etc for Non- EE spouses. It may be bloodymindedness but it their choice. Seems there is a Non EE family member permit processed and charged in a similar way to any foreign applicant not a partner of an EE national. This is causing the Spanish to want to limit the rights given to UK/EE nationals by the Spanish as signatories to Schengen.
Schengen states have generously included UK etc into their Non-EE spouse idea like I said. But then some states don't like the idea because Uk not recipricating- but UK never said they would tag something onto the Schengen idea- Did they? If Spain agreed to the idea of generously giving ALL EE national and their spouses something good why are they refusing to play the game they agreed to. Surely it was up to the contributing Schengen states to consider the consequences of their actions.
By their actions of refusing to accept UK nationals non-EE spouses route to Schengen visa they must have expected the UK to comply with Schengen ideals.
It seems to me that the UK accept applications from EE national non EE spouses as they would any other non EE nationals. If they are legally bound to give special consideration to non- EE spouses by EE law/UK statuates (not finished my research yet) ,indeed the UK needs reprimanding and pursuing by other EE nations till they comply.
If the Uk is not legally bound. This pressure of "reciprical" action is nonsense because it is not reciprical. If one party gives a favour it not logically expected to have to return a favour. Morally expected or sociable ,but if you offer a gift expecting a return it not really a gift is it?
I would rather the EE/ Schengen states not offer these rights to me and my spouse than to be offered them then snatched away when we claim them.
(1)Is the UK legally bound by any directives to implement measures that give rise to the creation of a type visa with equivalence to non- EE spouse of a EE-national type visa? I step down and give the floor to those that know!
(2)Supposing UK IS NOT legally bound, are Schengen signatory/EE nations such as in this case Spain, legally allowed to refuse to implement an agreement already on their own statute books without revoking it?
(3) Supposing UK IS legally bound, are Schengen signatory/EE nations legally allowed to refuse to implement an agreement already on their statute books without revoking it? (in this case-Does Spain have repricosity clause in their transposition of the directive?) (If they do it must by logic be directed at the non- signatories of a common agreement one would think.)
The argument of it being a reciprical action not to implement for UK nationals is nonsense if UK not legally bound.
THIS IS THE SIMPLE straight forward answer to the problem: answering these questions. I suspect we are back to square one.
To answer (1) ,which is based on many conditionals and invoking again the crossing of the semantic domains ,I suspect ,is the real crux of the problem, So we are back to the start.
I hope this doesn't sound like the ramblings I suspect it might- my previous lost post was better.
My head is revolving now so love to all and hope this may be of use to some
