Visitor Visas and other Transatlantic Immigration Quandries

[dan_N]

Hi All,

It seems i'm in a similair situation to a lot of people on here - international relationship breeds immigration hell!

For the moment my girlfriend (who is US Citizen) plans to visit me for the third time in the UK on a visitor visa.

Does anyone know or have any experience of how often immigrations officials are prepared to issue visitor visas? The actual legislation does not specify any time limits and does set a maximum limit of entries on a visitor visa.

However, one official that i spoke to at UK immigration suggested that my girlfriend would only be able to remain in the uk for six months of every twelve. He also said that entry is granted at the discression of the Imigration Official at the point of entry.

In addition to this, i would like to know how dangerous it is for me to travel within the EU with my girlfriend during her stay as a visitor? Presumably she will have to reapply for a visitor visa when she returns, giving the immigration officials another chance to deny entry?

With regards to marriage, which seems like the only option for her to actually be able to work in the uk (since she does not qualify for HSMP), does she actually have to be here on a fiance's visa in order to get married, or does this merely preclude the need to travel back to the US once wed in order to apply for her spouses visa?

Finally, is there any other way of getting my girlfriend in a situation where she can live and work in the uk without marrying her? I love her and i do want to spend the rest of my life with her without question, but i am loathe to marry her in a rush merely to satisfy the governments draconian immigration policies!!

Any advice is appreciated!

Thanks,

Dan

[yankeegirl]

However, one official that i spoke to at UK immigration suggested that my girlfriend would only be able to remain in the uk for six months of every twelve. He also said that entry is granted at the discression of the Imigration Official at the point of entry.

I think that is the standard. As long as she doesn't breach that she should be ok. The biggest thing would be for her to be able to show ties to the US. Return ticket, letter from employer, things like that. As far as visiting other countries, as long as she can satisfy to the immigration officer that she will be leaving within the allowed time she should be ok. I know of quite a few people who come to the UK to visit, and then say take a weekend holiday to France, Ireland or wherever and then return to the UK to get their flight home.

As far as marrying, I believe you could marry in the CoE without needing a fiance visa but she would have to return home to get the spousal visa. If she has the fiance visa, she can apply for a spousal visa from within the UK, but she would not be eligible to work until she has gotten the spousal visa. Another alternative would be to marry in the US and then apply for a spousal visa from there and then she would be able to take up employment as soon as she arrived in the UK.

The only other options I can think of are work permit or student visa. The work permit option might be viable depending on what her skills are. I can totally appreciate not wanting to marry because of immigration, but, unfortunately international long didstance relationships don't always play out the "normal" way lol.

[Wanderer]

It seems i'm in a similair situation to a lot of people on here - international relationship breeds immigration hell!

And empty pockets! Welcome to the Club!

For the moment my girlfriend (who is US Citizen) plans to visit me for the third time in the UK on a visitor visa.

Oooh, dangerous....

Does anyone know or have any experience of how often immigrations officials are prepared to issue visitor visas? The actual legislation does not specify any time limits and does set a maximum limit of entries on a visitor visa.

Basically a VV is NOT a settlement visa, as soon as one IO in a mood sees that she using it that way and wonders how anyone can spent so long 'visiting' without settling is gonna mark her passport - which would mean possible refusal of entry and certainly the needto formally apply for a VV to UK in the future.

However, one official that i spoke to at UK immigration suggested that my girlfriend would only be able to remain in the uk for six months of every twelve. He also said that entry is granted at the discression of the Imigration Official at the point of entry.

That's a good rule of thumb, although I'd not even go the full six months.

In addition to this, i would like to know how dangerous it is for me to travel within the EU with my girlfriend during her stay as a visitor? Presumably she will have to reapply for a visitor visa when she returns, giving the immigration officials another chance to deny entry?

Can't see an issue, except she might need visas for EU countries? I dunno if US has visa waivers with other EU states

With regards to marriage, which seems like the only option for her to actually be able to work in the uk (since she does not qualify for HSMP), does she actually have to be here on a fiance's visa in order to get married, or does this merely preclude the need to travel back to the US once wed in order to apply for her spouses visa?

U can marry her in US or third country and she can enter on Spouse visa nd work straight away.

Finally, is there any other way of getting my girlfriend in a situation where she can live and work in the uk without marrying her? I love her and i do want to spend the rest of my life with her without question, but i am loathe to marry her in a rush merely to satisfy the governments draconian immigration policies!!

Student visa? Expensive tho.....

[ball1333]

The US has visa waivers for most EU countries. As a US citizen I've visited France, Italy, Austria, Ireland, Spain, Germany, and Switzerland and just presented my passport at the passport control desk after landing. Easy!!

Here is a complete list, compiled by the US State Department, of requirements concerning Americans traveling abroad:
http://travel.state.gov/travel/tips/bro ... _1229.html

Don't forget about the Highly Skilled Migrant Programme - if your other half can qualify for a work visa based on her skills, Bob's your uncle.

(I recently got an HSMP visa and I'm planning my move to the UK now.)

[Pyromaniac]

As far as marrying, I believe you could marry in the CoE without needing a fiance visa

I recently married my wife ( from Bali ) in a Church of England service. If I remember correctly - you DO need a Fiancee visa to get married in the C of E, as this was part of the Churches requirement for it to be lega for you to marry. After the marriage we applied for FLR at Croyden.

I believe the C of E route removes the necessity to get a Certificate of Approval ( or something like this ) which you have to obtain from the Gov't and would have to produce if you marry in a register office. You can only marry in the C of E if one of you qualifies under the Church rules to marry in the particular parish you wish to marry in.

We had to obtain a Common License to marry in the Church of England as we could not have Banns read due to my wife being out of the country in Bali, this needs an appointment with the 'local' Bishop or his representative to swear an Affidavit and the supply of certain details on the proposed partner ie date of birth - address details - and so on. Very painless and I think the fee was something like £60. We got the Common License by post 2 days later !

Without the relevent visa allowing you to marry and the correct church license if needed then the marriage in C of E wont be possible I dont think.

I believe you cant marry on a visitor visa as it is not a 'settlement' type visa.

[dan_N]

thanks for all the great advice people have posted! we're slowly getting there now, although this whole process is pretty exhausting!

so having discussed the exact situation with a guy from the home office, it seems that the guidelines (not the legislation) states that my girlfriend can only spend two more months in the country if she comes to visit on september fourth, when the plane ticket is booked for.

she has been in the uk

between 28th sept and 28th nov, and
between 24th mar and 19th june.

i was thinking that, since the six months in every twelve thing appears to be a guideline then she could just come over and hope that the immigration guy gives her the standard six month visitor visa.

has anyone had any experience with entering the uk on multiple visitor visas which have cut it so close?!

if we decide against this, then i guess the only option is to wed!

if we apply for a fiances visa is it ok for my girlfriend to visit the UK whilst we are waiting for the visa to be processed?

has anyone had any experience applying for a fiance visa?

do you how long the visa will actually take to arrive and is there any way to speed up the process?

do you have any tips or recommendations on how to ensure the visa will be granted?

has anyone been refused a fiance visa and if so on what grounds?

am i right in thinking that it is easy and inexpensive to convert a fiance visa to a spousal visa once we get married?

is this the best way to find a way to be together, and if not what is?!!!!

should i just bankrupt myself and move us both in with my friend in malawi?!?!?!?!

sorry for the relentless questions but these are just a few of the hundreds i have buzzing around in my head at the moment! as you can imagine this is a very emotive issue for me and both Jo and I just want to sort everything out with the minimum amount of problems and heartache.

thanks so much for any advice you can give us: it really, really helps!!

Dan

[thsths]

tit seems that the guidelines (not the legislation) states that my girlfriend can only spend two more months in the country if she comes to visit on september fourth, when the plane ticket is booked for.

she has been in the uk

between 28th sept and 28th nov, and
between 24th mar and 19th june.

If these are the only visits she made, I do not see a problem. Yes, she has been here for 5 months during the last year, but she will never have more than 6 months in any 12 months, as the first visit "expires" bit by bit starting at the end of september. Another obvious solution would be to go on holiday in continental Europe for a few weeks.

You can actually spend quite a lot of time together, if she visits here for a few months every year, you go to the US for a while, and maybe you have a holiday together in a third country. It is for you to decide whether that is what you want, or whether you want to settle in one place.

If she wants to stay here, she has to get a different visa. Unless she has special skills, marriage is probably the most viable option.

[Pyromaniac]

if we apply for a fiances visa is it ok for my girlfriend to visit the UK whilst we are waiting for the visa to be processed?

If you Fiancee applies for a Fiancee visa then I think she wont have a passport to come here in the meantime as they have the passport with the application - the visa has to go into it .............

has anyone had any experience applying for a fiance visa?

Yes, my wife successfully got hers in Indonesia and married me here in the UK this May in a Church ceremony.

do you how long the visa will actually take to arrive and is there any way to speed up the process?

No idea, I doubt you can speed up the process, just make sure you send in as much evidence of the relationship and supporting documentation in original form as you can both find, then find anything else to do with the relationship. The guidance notes for the application list what is required. Go overboard on the evidence - in this case more is better !

do you have any tips or recommendations on how to ensure the visa will be granted?

You cant ensure it will be granted, but do as above.

am i right in thinking that it is easy and inexpensive to convert a fiance visa to a spousal visa once we get married?

Easy - yes, we went to Croyden and applied for FLR, very straightforward and the lady that saw us was friendly and congratulated us on our new life together. Appointment at 09.00, the 'interview' process took about 10 minutes and then 2 hours waiting to recieve the passport / visa / paperwork back.
you take eveidence as for the Fiancee visa application, but not as much, and of course the new Marriage Certificate.
Plus loads of money - it is not inexpensive !!


It would I think be more cost effective to get married overseas with your Fiancee and just apply for a Spouse visa after you are married. We could not do so due to the laws on marriage between different religions in Indonesia.

[VictoriaS]

There is no law which says that a visitor can only be in the UK for 6 months in every 12 (unless she is on a multiple entry visit visa). The simple fact is that it is up to the Immigration Officer. If he thinks that she is using the visitor rules to actually settle here, then he will refuse her entry. if he believes thatshe is only visiting, he will let her in. The more she visits, and the less time there is between visits, the more suspicious he will be.

One other thing - if she says that she is only staying for two months then stays for six, if they find out then it will be detremental to her when she next tries to come in - even though she will have technically not broken any rules.

Victoria

[Wanderer]

One other thing - if she says that she is only staying for two months then stays for six, if they find out then it will be detremental to her when she next tries to come in - even though she will have technically not broken any rules.

Victoria

I can vouch for that - it happened to us!

[dan_N]

thanks for all this advice everyone! it's so good to find people who actually know what they're talking about!!

Plus loads of money - it is not inexpensive !!

do you have to pay £500 for the fiance and then another £500 for the spousal visa?

There is no law which says that a visitor can only be in the UK for 6 months in every 12 (unless she is on a multiple entry visit visa). The simple fact is that it is up to the Immigration Officer. If he thinks that she is using the visitor rules to actually settle here, then he will refuse her entry. if he believes thatshe is only visiting, he will let her in. The more she visits, and the less time there is between visits, the more suspicious he will be.

One other thing - if she says that she is only staying for two months then stays for six, if they find out then it will be detremental to her when she next tries to come in - even though she will have technically not broken any rules.

Victoria

Victoria: i'm aware that there's no rule but do you think they would actually notice that? as far as i could see she only has to declare when she expects to leave verbally?

if they did notice do you think this could have any detrimental effect on our application for the fiance's visa?

@ wanderer - what were the circumstances you experienced this in?



both Jo and I are starting to feel pressured about the whole thing now - it seems pretty unjust that we have to go through all this BS and actually marry each other in order to spend any time together?! i understand the need for rigorous immigration laws but the process, fees and legislation and ridiculous!!

i'm running out of ideas to be honest!

maybe you guys can offer me some advice - what would you do in our situation...?

jo has a one way ticket to the uk on september 4th. at present she's at her mums house in michigan. we had planned for her to spend six months in the uk on a visitor visa before going through the whole fiance/spousal visa process.

now everything is kind of up in the air - i'm perfectly prepared to dish out cash and fill in paperwork to get the appropriate visas, but it seems like it is a fairly lengthy process and as such the visa would not be ready to grant jo access on the 4th september. however it seems as though she must be in the US for the entire visa application process - so whatever happens we're going to have to be apart for 90 days whilst we wait for that.

it's not really feasible for me to go to the states for 90 days anytime soon - i have debts that i need to maintain and i'm certain i would have to leave my job as they wouldn't allow me to have that amount of time off.

in the meantime this whole long distance relationship is doing my fruit in and the uncertainty of it all is making it all the worse.

thanks again everyone for your time and help!

[ball1333]

hi Dan,

A British friend's brother married his American wife earlier this year. They decided after researching all the options that it was easiest for the guy to travel to the US and marry the American in an American civil ceremony. Then the two of them were able to travel to the UK, with the American on a UK spouse visa.

They are having a "real" wedding later this year, but (as they would have been living together anyway) are living together now in Durham. They would have preferred to get married just once, in the UK, after more planning and "properly" -- but desperate times/desperate measures and all that. If you really really want to be with your other half, you may just have to suck it up and marry her.

If you don't want to be with her badly enough to marry her, be honest for both your sakes. Yes, it would devastate her if you broke it off. However, she would get over it eventually. It's so much better to lay all the cards on the table now than wind up in divorce proceedings in a few years. If you were to divorce before she had ILR, her status in the UK might be jeopardized *after* she'd cut most of her ties with the US and her life could be - to put it so bluntly - ruined. If you broke up with her now - if that's really what you want to do - she could be much better off in the long run.

I don't mean to give off disrespectful vibes here. I don't know you from Adam, I know. I sense some hesitation on your part and I feel compelled to acknowledge it. It's a valid feeling and you shouldn't discount it.

[Wanderer]

@ wanderer - what were the circumstances you experienced this in?



both Jo and I are starting to feel pressured about the whole thing now - it seems pretty unjust that we have to go through all this BS and actually marry each other in order to spend any time together?! i understand the need for rigorous immigration laws but the process, fees and legislation and ridiculous!!

My gf came here on a six month visa - she is a visa-national - spent three months here. The second one was granted but with a warning from the consulate that this time she shouldn't spend so long here on it this time or she won't get anymore. Told us a visit is two/three weeks not three months. I dunno if they have the rights to say that but they did.

We have the student visa for here and a work permit for Germany now so that's not an issue but it might have buggered up our plans right royally.

WRT to ur other point, you should bear in mind the UK immgration system is one the best and easiest! Expensive, yeah, but you try and get a residency permit for Russia or imagine sitting in the auslanderbehorde office in Berlin for the fourth time for six hours.....

Indeed the US immigration process is very fraught, K1's take 9 months or so according to my American friends, undergoing all sorts of background checks, police checks, HIV tests, medicals, rigourous questioning. I should add that's in Amerigo-Russian relationships., maybe it's easier for US-UK.

[dan_N]

again, thanks for your posts - i'm really staggered by the positive response!

hi Dan,

A British friend's brother married his American wife earlier this year. They decided after researching all the options that it was easiest for the guy to travel to the US and marry the American in an American civil ceremony. Then the two of them were able to travel to the UK, with the American on a UK spouse visa.

They are having a "real" wedding later this year, but (as they would have been living together anyway) are living together now in Durham. They would have preferred to get married just once, in the UK, after more planning and "properly" -- but desperate times/desperate measures and all that. If you really really want to be with your other half, you may just have to suck it up and marry her.

If you don't want to be with her badly enough to marry her, be honest for both your sakes...

hey ball1333 thanks for your response. first of all let me say that i certainly do not want to break it off with her! what you're sensing isn't reticence for the relationship or the girl, but quite the opposite! i really would have liked it if we could do the whole marriage thing perfectly and normally, but as someone said a little further up in this thread - international relationships don't play out in a standard way!

i have actually mentioned to her the concept of getting the civil ceremony for the immigration formalities and having a 'real' wedding for the family and friends. we will have to discuss that option a little further, i think.

no, this definitely my one, but i think you've made a very very good point there!

do you know any of the details as regards paperwork and process that are necesary to get married in the US? presumably it varies from state to state?

wanderer - thanks for the details there - so your girlfriend wasn't actually refused entry but they just told her that she was 'visiting' too much? the immigration official just presumed that she was intending to stay for another 3 months?

as regards your other point, i've got little experience with other countries immigration processes excepting tourist visas, and i've no doubt that the UK's is relatively easy and efficient - but at the same time in this day and age of cheap international filghts where it is increasingly common for young people to go travelling and find love - that there are no provisions for this.

anyway - i digress!

Looking for as much advice and ideas at possible so if anyone has any idea of how to make this happen please don't hesitate to post!

Thanks again,

Dan

[vivekR]

Link as below for any one else interested in this topic.

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/docume ... iew=Binary

Look under section 4: FREQUENCY AND DURATION OF VISITS



Best regards
vR

[ball1333]

do you know any of the details as regards paperwork and process that are necesary to get married in the US? presumably it varies from state to state?

Hi Dan, the people I mentioned before got married in New York, where the gal's family is based. Given all the effort you're putting in to sort out a UK-side solution, could you ask your gf to do some legwork regarding her state's marriage laws? I should think it will be easier for her to access the information.

[yankeegirl]

Ball is right, it varies from state to state (sometimes even county to county). In NYC, all hubby and I needed were our passports to apply for the marriage license. We got married 24 hours later in City Hall in Manhattan and received the marriage certificate immediately after the ceremony. We brought our birth certificates and my divorce decree to be on the safe side, but they didn't need it. In which state does your partner live?

[dan_N]

Ball is right, it varies from state to state (sometimes even county to county). In NYC, all hubby and I needed were our passports to apply for the marriage license. We got married 24 hours later in City Hall in Manhattan and received the marriage certificate immediately after the ceremony. We brought our birth certificates and my divorce decree to be on the safe side, but they didn't need it. In which state does your partner live?

ah, cool - that sounds fairly simple! was your husband in NYC on a standard visa waiver?

my girl is in michigan at the moment but i think we could probably get married in washington state, as she also has family there.

Hi Dan, the people I mentioned before got married in New York, where the gal's family is based. Given all the effort you're putting in to sort out a UK-side solution, could you ask your gf to do some legwork regarding her state's marriage laws? I should think it will be easier for her to access the information.

Good idea! Will get her on the case. I've been doing a lot of the legwork since it costs a bomb to discuss any british immigration issues in the US!


I must say that i'm feeling a lot happier since i've been discussing this here. There are some really great helpfull people on this board!

Thanks!

[yankeegirl]

http://www.wedalert.com/content/article ... p#counties
Here's a link for your partner. It lists the addresses of all the County Clerk Offices in Michigan, so hopefully a good place to start.

ah, cool - that sounds fairly simple! was your husband in NYC on a standard visa waiver?

Yep. We had all of his job info, lease etc for my visa application, confirmation of appointment with the UK embassy and so on to show US immigration that his intent was not to settle. As it happened, we didn't need it. They asked if he was on vacation and he said yes, and they they didn't ask any more lol. It's perfectly acceptable to go to the US to marry on a VWP as long as you can satisfy the IO that you are not intending on settling in the US after the marriage.

[VictoriaS]

jo has a one way ticket to the uk on september 4th.

Right. Then I can tell you straight away that if she tries to enter as a visitor she is more than likely going to be refused. Immigration are not likely to grant entry as a visitor to a girl with a boyfriend int he UK and no return ticket.

I think maybe getting the fiancee visa now would be the best idea. That will cost £500, and then when married the switch to spousal is another £395.

Victoria

[dan_N]

jo has a one way ticket to the uk on september 4th.

Right. Then I can tell you straight away that if she tries to enter as a visitor she is more than likely going to be refused. Immigration are not likely to grant entry as a visitor to a girl with a boyfriend int he UK and no return ticket.

I think maybe getting the fiancee visa now would be the best idea. That will cost £500, and then when married the switch to spousal is another £395.

Victoria

i'm not sure that it is to be honest!

the option i think we're plumping for at the moment is that jo come to the uk for another two months or so (with a return ticket and a letter from her employer in seattle indicating she will start work late october / early november). During this time we will get all the paperwork together required for a spousal visa. Before Jo's six out of twelve months is up we will travel to the US, get married, submit the visa application, and when it is granted both return to the uk to finally start living a stable life together!

do you think this would work out?

and additionally have you any idea how long the visa application would take to be processed? the uk home office says it 'aims' to process all the applications within 90 days - is this realistic?

yankeegirl - thanks so much for the link and for getting in touch. it would be good to be able to talk to you about things as we go along if that's ok with you. It seems Jo and I will be going through pretty much the same process as you and your husband did.

i'm really happy it's all working out for you - must be so good to not have to keep worrying about this stuff all the time - it gives me hope!

[VictoriaS]

the option i think we're plumping for at the moment is that jo come to the uk for another two months or so (with a return ticket and a letter from her employer in seattle indicating she will start work late october / early november). During this time we will get all the paperwork together required for a spousal visa. Before Jo's six out of twelve months is up we will travel to the US, get married, submit the visa application, and when it is granted both return to the uk to finally start living a stable life together!

do you think this would work out?

yes! As long as she switches her ticket to a return.

and additionally have you any idea how long the visa application would take to be processed? the uk home office says it 'aims' to process all the applications within 90 days - is this realistic?

Applications made in the US are much quicker than this - often same day.

Victoria

[yankeegirl]

it would be good to be able to talk to you about things as we go along if that's ok with you.

No problem

Victoria is right, applications in the US are usually processed very quickly. If you apply in person at the consulate, you usually get it all back the same day. Postal applications are done and sent back within a week or two.

[dan_N]

great!

well i guess that means we're about good to go.

thanks everyone for your help.

Dan & Jo

[dan_N]

hello again everyone!

the time draws near so i'm in the process of sorting out the finer details of our plan.

Jo arrives in the UK in early September and we want to make sure she can gain entry so we're gonna buy some return to tickets to the USA for Jo to show the guys at immigration on entry.

in order to do this, we need to work out where we're going to wed. At the moment we're thinking California, and i was just looking into the marriage regulations there.

Everything seems fine, with one exception, there seems to be an awful lot of mentioning of K-1 fiancee's visas!

Earlier in the thread, yankee girl said...

It's perfectly acceptable to go to the US to marry on a VWP as long as you can satisfy the IO that you are not intending on settling in the US after the marriage.

can anyone confirm that i will be ok to get married whilst in the US on a visitors visa?! if not i need to sort this out soon!!

thanks in advance