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Child's legal status after my HSMP

Archived UK Tier 1 (General) points system forum. This route no longer exists.

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nikhil
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Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:46 pm

Child's legal status after my HSMP

Post by nikhil » Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:29 am

Hi all

I am on HSMP now in the UK. I am married and my wife has been with me in the UK as well for more than an year now. She got her dependant visa after I got my HSMP visa sorted out.

I wanted to know if we have a child in the UK, is there any way of making that child a british citizen? According to the british law a child can be a british citizen if at least one of the parents is "settled" in the UK which "usually" means that the parent needs to have IFLR or Right to Abode.

However is there a way around this "settled" and "usually" clause? Say on the basis of jobs, or first cousins settled in the UK since about 30 years and so on and so forth?

sakura
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Re: Child's legal status after my HSMP

Post by sakura » Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:47 am

nikhil wrote:Hi all

I am on HSMP now in the UK. I am married and my wife has been with me in the UK as well for more than an year now. She got her dependant visa after I got my HSMP visa sorted out.

I wanted to know if we have a child in the UK, is there any way of making that child a british citizen? According to the british law a child can be a british citizen if at least one of the parents is "settled" in the UK which "usually" means that the parent needs to have IFLR or Right to Abode.

However is there a way around this "settled" and "usually" clause? Say on the basis of jobs, or first cousins settled in the UK since about 30 years and so on and so forth?
Why would having a specific kind of job help your child obtain British nationality? Or your cousin? Where'd you come up with that???

No, there is no loophole you can use to have a child and get British nationality for them. Jobs or 'cousins' have no effect on nationality laws. If you don't have ILR, BC or an equivalent of them, or you are stateless, then your child cannot be registered as British simply by virtue of being born here.

Once you obtain ILR and the child is born here, then you can register the child as a British citizen immediately.

nikhil
Junior Member
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:46 pm

Re: Child's legal status after my HSMP

Post by nikhil » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:24 am

sakura wrote:
nikhil wrote:Hi all

I am on HSMP now in the UK. I am married and my wife has been with me in the UK as well for more than an year now. She got her dependant visa after I got my HSMP visa sorted out.

I wanted to know if we have a child in the UK, is there any way of making that child a british citizen? According to the british law a child can be a british citizen if at least one of the parents is "settled" in the UK which "usually" means that the parent needs to have IFLR or Right to Abode.

However is there a way around this "settled" and "usually" clause? Say on the basis of jobs, or first cousins settled in the UK since about 30 years and so on and so forth?
Why would having a specific kind of job help your child obtain British nationality? Or your cousin? Where'd you come up with that???

No, there is no loophole you can use to have a child and get British nationality for them. Jobs or 'cousins' have no effect on nationality laws. If you don't have ILR, BC or an equivalent of them, or you are stateless, then your child cannot be registered as British simply by virtue of being born here.

Once you obtain ILR and the child is born here, then you can register the child as a British citizen immediately.
Duh..dude go easy or else stay out of my threads...

Unless you are a cliched frog in the well you should know that usually all countries come up with a list of professionals/jobs which currently are lacking in the country from time to time. Often in these cases having a particualr skill set helps speed up applications.

Behind the cousins etc... the rationale is simple...the official definition of the criterion for citizenship for a child is that the parent is "settled" which "usually" means ILTR or right to abode. In this definition it is not clerly stated that a parent "has to have" or it is "mandatory to have" either of the two and thus it leaves the statement open for interpretation for the meaning of "settled". The idea behind cousins (and letters of support from them) is to prove to the authorities that I have a solid base in the UK and for all practical purposes I am "settled" here. I have a close knit family (all pretty rich) who are ready to support me if needed, I have a well paying job and have been living in this country for some years now which might make a good case for "settled".

So unless you are ready to open up that peanut in your skull a bit and make it work a little, kindly do stay out of my threads...

sakura
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Re: Child's legal status after my HSMP

Post by sakura » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:24 pm

nikhil wrote:
sakura wrote:
nikhil wrote:Hi all

I am on HSMP now in the UK. I am married and my wife has been with me in the UK as well for more than an year now. She got her dependant visa after I got my HSMP visa sorted out.

I wanted to know if we have a child in the UK, is there any way of making that child a british citizen? According to the british law a child can be a british citizen if at least one of the parents is "settled" in the UK which "usually" means that the parent needs to have IFLR or Right to Abode.

However is there a way around this "settled" and "usually" clause? Say on the basis of jobs, or first cousins settled in the UK since about 30 years and so on and so forth?
Why would having a specific kind of job help your child obtain British nationality? Or your cousin? Where'd you come up with that???

No, there is no loophole you can use to have a child and get British nationality for them. Jobs or 'cousins' have no effect on nationality laws. If you don't have ILR, BC or an equivalent of them, or you are stateless, then your child cannot be registered as British simply by virtue of being born here.

Once you obtain ILR and the child is born here, then you can register the child as a British citizen immediately.
Duh..dude go easy or else stay out of my threads...

Unless you are a cliched frog in the well you should know that usually all countries come up with a list of professionals/jobs which currently are lacking in the country from time to time. Often in these cases having a particualr skill set helps speed up applications.

Behind the cousins etc... the rationale is simple...the official definition of the criterion for citizenship for a child is that the parent is "settled" which "usually" means ILTR or right to abode. In this definition it is not clerly stated that a parent "has to have" or it is "mandatory to have" either of the two and thus it leaves the statement open for interpretation for the meaning of "settled". The idea behind cousins (and letters of support from them) is to prove to the authorities that I have a solid base in the UK and for all practical purposes I am "settled" here. I have a close knit family (all pretty rich) who are ready to support me if needed, I have a well paying job and have been living in this country for some years now which might make a good case for "settled".

So unless you are ready to open up that peanut in your skull a bit and make it work a little, kindly do stay out of my threads...
Peanut in my skull? :roll:

Look here DUDE, I am explaining to you that the UK doesn't care if you have a PhD in astrophysicsiamagenius, it won't allow you to speed up any process. You're already here on an HSMP visa, right? That's the highest it goes (unless you include the Investor visa but are you that rich?).

As I stated - and everyone here will concur - having a settled cousin doesn't matter. They can write a million letters stating you're here and all - if you don't have ILR/BC or equivalent, nothing will help your child get BC immediately.

It's funny - you're being rude for no reason at all. My post wasn't threatening or rude, but simply wondering why you'd assume a particular job would help even AFTER you have read the rules regarding nationality. You did write
I wanted to know if we have a child in the UK, is there any way of making that child a british citizen? According to the british law a child can be a british citizen if at least one of the parents is "settled" in the UK which "usually" means that the parent needs to have IFLR or Right to Abode.


an indication to me that you do know something about the rules. Then you go on to state
However is there a way around this "settled" and "usually" clause? Say on the basis of jobs, or first cousins settled in the UK since about 30 years and so on and so forth?
an indication to me that you are trying to find something outside the rules that just doesn't exist.

So, grow up, don't be mad that the UK doesn't have something to help you. I can't see why you're complaining - you're here on HSMP, about 2 years or so, get your extension and, if your child is indeed born here, after you obtain ILR then register the child.

That is all I wrote - why call me a frog? :shock:
And...fyi this is an open board - I wrote a reply you can't accept - but that doesn't mean you should hurl insults.

nikhil
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Re: Child's legal status after my HSMP

Post by nikhil » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:04 pm

Well to me your post did sound rude and hence my reply.

As for your view on this matter I would like to say that you are missing the point altogether. Yes I agree with you on what you are saying but if you were to please try and take a broader perspective of things for once you might probably see where I aim to take this post.

I am not sure how well versed you are with the way the legal system and the way such laws works in any country. Every law clearly states the conditions where it is applicable. If a law is not explicit enough in stating its scope then it is perfectly legal for the applicant to find an interpretation of the law which suits his/her case. In this case the condition for this rule is for the parent to be "settled" in the UK and the definition of "settled" has been left open for interpretation with BC/ILTR/Right to Abode as some "examples" which illustrate the "settled" clause but do not "solely define" it.

What I am aiming to find out here is if there could be certain other conditions which when put together might put an individual under this "settled" category and hence give the child a BC?

I hope this would make things a bit clearer.

John
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United Kingdom

Post by John » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:44 pm

The tone of this topic is to be regretted ..... if it continues like this is will get locked without further notice.

juju1979, when you get your ILR, and thus the family get theirs at the same time, you will be entitled to apply for any born-in-the-UK children to be Registered as British Citizens. That is as good as it gets, but even that means that such children could be British before you or your spouse.

Also, any children born in the UK after you get your ILRs will automatically be British from birth, even without applying for Registration.
John

olisun
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Re: Child's legal status after my HSMP

Post by olisun » Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:05 pm

nikhil wrote:What I am aiming to find out here is if there could be certain other conditions which when put together might put an individual under this "settled" category and hence give the child a BC?
If you still haven't got your answer or still not convinced then I would suggest that you contact a immigration lawyer who might help you with your queries.

nikhil
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Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:46 pm

Re: Child's legal status after my HSMP

Post by nikhil » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:44 pm

olisun wrote:
nikhil wrote:What I am aiming to find out here is if there could be certain other conditions which when put together might put an individual under this "settled" category and hence give the child a BC?
If you still haven't got your answer or still not convinced then I would suggest that you contact a immigration lawyer who might help you with your queries.
Thanks olisun. I did exactly that today and it seems I was right all along. There are potential ways around the "settled" clause.

thanks for all your help everyone, as a small suggestion, please do try and keep an open mind some times. :)

olisun
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Re: Child's legal status after my HSMP

Post by olisun » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:56 pm

nikhil wrote: Thanks olisun. I did exactly that today and it seems I was right all along. There are potential ways around the "settled" clause.
I would suggest you consult more lawyers since AFAIK and like some others have mentioned, the child cannot obtain BC if either of the parent does not hold hold ILR to the minimum (I think there is also a 7yr exceptional situation rule).

Otherwise the almost everybody "settled" in this country would become parent(s) just to get citizenship for their child in order to stay back in this country.

sakura
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Location: UK

Re: Child's legal status after my HSMP

Post by sakura » Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:34 pm

nikhil wrote:
olisun wrote:
nikhil wrote:What I am aiming to find out here is if there could be certain other conditions which when put together might put an individual under this "settled" category and hence give the child a BC?
If you still haven't got your answer or still not convinced then I would suggest that you contact a immigration lawyer who might help you with your queries.
Thanks olisun. I did exactly that today and it seems I was right all along. There are potential ways around the "settled" clause.

thanks for all your help everyone, as a small suggestion, please do try and keep an open mind some times. :)
We all, or mostly all, have an open mind but we're not mind readers. So unless the OP clarifies his/her point, one can't expect us to answer sufficiently. Hence, confusion.

I need only point you to ask your lawyer/s for any case laws regarding this matter, and what the BN Act 1971, 1981 and Nationality and Immigration Act 1993 say about the definition - as olisun points out, many people could argue they feel "settled" according to their own definition, so there must be a case law out there already.

JAJ
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Australia

Re: Child's legal status after my HSMP

Post by JAJ » Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:59 pm

sakura wrote: I need only point you to ask your lawyer/s for any case laws regarding this matter, and what the BN Act 1971, 1981 and Nationality and Immigration Act 1993 say about the definition - as olisun points out, many people could argue they feel "settled" according to their own definition, so there must be a case law out there already.
No chance of being "settled" unless you hold:

- Indefinite Leave to Remain; or
- Right of Abode; or
- Irish citizenship;or
- citizenship of another EEA state or Switzerland, and have been exercising Treaty rights for 5 years in most cases [rules were different prior to 30.04.06 and again prior to 02.10.00]

sakura
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Location: UK

Re: Child's legal status after my HSMP

Post by sakura » Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:16 pm

JAJ wrote:
sakura wrote: I need only point you to ask your lawyer/s for any case laws regarding this matter, and what the BN Act 1971, 1981 and Nationality and Immigration Act 1993 say about the definition - as olisun points out, many people could argue they feel "settled" according to their own definition, so there must be a case law out there already.
No chance of being "settled" unless you hold:

- Indefinite Leave to Remain; or
- Right of Abode; or
- Irish citizenship;or
- citizenship of another EEA state or Switzerland, and have been exercising Treaty rights for 5 years in most cases [rules were different prior to 30.04.06 and again prior to 02.10.00]
JAJ - just what I've been trying to point out! Thank you for confirming. As an aside, do you think they'll change the special treatment for Irish Citizens any time soon ("special treatment" isn't exactly what I mean, but the fact that they are given "settled" status against other EEA nationals)? Does Ireland do the same for BCs?

SYH
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Re: Child's legal status after my HSMP

Post by SYH » Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:26 pm

nikhil wrote: Thanks olisun. I did exactly that today and it seems I was right all along. There are potential ways around the "settled" clause.

thanks for all your help everyone, as a small suggestion, please do try and keep an open mind some times. :)
What potential ways did you find around the settled clause. If there is such an usual way different than what is layed out, would you mind sharing.

However I do have to point out that the way you were trying to get around settled status didn't make sense because your original scenario was to use the HO's words against it by coming up with your own definition of settled status which is not the way HO's defines it. This is not a viable method, and attacking sakura for not buying this definition is really unfair. And to be fair, it didn't make sense, that your cousin could claim settled status on your behalf and further, I do think settled is very defined because the application to obtain settlement indicates the criteria for settlement.
However, unconventional methods do exist such as the ppron method so we are opened minded to hearing if your solicitor has some angle to get around the definition. So please do share and not be selfish and keep such an amazing approach to yourself.

nikhil
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Re: Child's legal status after my HSMP

Post by nikhil » Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:45 pm

SYH wrote:
nikhil wrote: Thanks olisun. I did exactly that today and it seems I was right all along. There are potential ways around the "settled" clause.

thanks for all your help everyone, as a small suggestion, please do try and keep an open mind some times. :)
What potential ways did you find around the settled clause. If there is such an usual way different than what is layed out, would you mind sharing.

However I do have to point out that the way you were trying to get around settled status didn't make sense because your original scenario was to use the HO's words against it by coming up with your own definition of settled status which is not the way HO's defines it. This is not a viable method, and attacking sakura for not buying this definition is really unfair. And to be fair, it didn't make sense, that your cousin could claim settled status on your behalf and further, I do think settled is very defined because the application to obtain settlement indicates the criteria for settlement.
However, unconventional methods do exist such as the ppron method so we are opened minded to hearing if your solicitor has some angle to get around the definition. So please do share and not be selfish and keep such an amazing approach to yourself.
I did not "attack" sakura at any point really. I read his reply, felt it was offensive and hence replied back in a stern tone. I really do not want to offer any more explaination than this. We all have our own criterion for offensive comments and on my own Sakura's post was a fit match just as mine was on all your lists.

To concentrate on original topic. Yes this is what I have been trying to do. I have been trying to find out all the possible scenarios which might fall under the "settled" category. This is "almost" like HSMP where they HO is ready to consider you as HS provided "you prove" to them that you are HS. I am still in conversations with multiple immigration lawyers and shall update this thread with whatever information I come up with.

However please do stop pointing fingures at me for being rude or offensive. I felt bad and I lashed back and I shall do that again if I feel I need to do so. Sorry but just because a status beneath a name says "Senior Member" I do not fold my hands and take whatever is hurled at me. Yes Sakura was trying to help and so are you guys and I am thankful, but if I feel someone is being rude with me I shall reply back in a stern tone again.

SYH
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Post by SYH » Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:01 pm

Ok Ok, attack was too strong of a word, but you were miffed and that was clear, my only point is that it didn't make sense so he said perhaps a bit exasperated how did you come up with your cousin giving you settled status as it was indeed out of left field.

nikhil
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Post by nikhil » Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:36 pm

SYH wrote:Ok Ok, attack was too strong of a word, but you were miffed and that was clear, my only point is that it didn't make sense so he said perhaps a bit exasperated how did you come up with your cousin giving you settled status as it was indeed out of left field.
Lol..no worries. Lets kill that thing now. I am awaiting replies from the immigration lawyers, shall let you know what they have to say

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