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Irish citizen married to and nonEU member

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

Moderators: Casa, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, CR001, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, meself2, geriatrix, Administrator

John
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Post by John » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:59 am

Oh dear! Yet more rubbish from the Irish authorities!

The EOJ case of Surinder Singh is in play here, and it affects ALL EU countries! The UK accepts that, and has now has enshined the Surinder Singh principle into UK legislation, so why does Ireland think that the principle does not apply to them?

This is the UK's guidance to its staff dealing with Surinder Singh cases :-
The ECJ case of Surinder Singh states that nationals of a Member State who go with their non-EEA family members to another Member State to exercise a Treaty right in an economic capacity, (as a worker or self-employed person) will on return to their home state, be entitled to bring their non-EEA family members to join them under EC law. (For example a British national and his non-EEA national spouse/children who have lived in Germany and exercised an economic treaty right and are now returning to the UK).

The Surinder Singh judgement is now incorporated into the EEA Regulations in Regulation 9.

It is confined to those cases where a British national has exercised an economic Treaty right and the Non-EEA national family member can demonstrate their lawful residence in a member state. (see section 21.4.1 on applications made from another Member State for more information on lawful residence requirements).

It does not matter if the only reason the British national went to another Member State to exercise an economic Treaty right was so that he/she could come back to the UK with his/her family members under EC law.

The non-EEA spouse will be eligible for entry into the UK under the Surinder Singh ruling provided that the marriage is valid and that the couple are not formally divorced. This applies even in cases where the non-EEA national spouse has not lived with the British national for the whole period during which Treaty rights were exercised. You may, however, find along with other evidence that this leads you to believe it to be a marriage of convenience.

Evidence that the couple have lived together may include:

* a registration certificate/residence card issued by the Member State;
* tenancy agreements; or,
* joint bank statements.

You should seek advice from ECO Support where you are unsure about the decision to be taken in applying the Surinder Singh judgement.
Can anyone locate the Irish equivalent? Indeed is there an Irish equivalent? OR does Ireland think that judgements of the European Court of Justice do not apply to it?
John

Yam Yam
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Post by Yam Yam » Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:55 am

I'm really shocked by the amount of good info on this message board! To answer some questions I am trying to move back to Ireland and my wife is Thai.

I think I have everything gathered to start the process today. All I need now is the form to fill in. Is there such a form and where can I find it?

Cheers,
YAM

Yam Yam
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Post by Yam Yam » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:02 am

Oh, another question:

Will I have to send in my original passport or would a photocopy or an expired previous work?

John
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Post by John » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:04 am

Yam Yam, my wife also hails from Thailand. She has been in the UK for 6 years, and now has a British passport.

How long has your wife been in the UK? And her status here? She came on an EEA Family Permit and now has a Residence Card?

Just trying to see if she might be eligible to apply for Naturalisation as British, which would of course instantly solve your problem with the Irish authorities.
John

Yam Yam
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Post by Yam Yam » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:25 am

Hello John,

She has been in the UK for just over two years. She came here on a work permit and now has a Residence Card for family member of EEA national. We been married for a year and a half and at three years she can apply for Irish Citizenship through marriage if I am not mistaken.

I can't wait for that day. A Thai passport is a visa nightmare!

yankeegirl
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Post by yankeegirl » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:29 am

We been married for a year and a half and at three years she can apply for Irish Citizenship through marriage if I am not mistaken.
She can if she has been resident on the island of Ireland for those 3 years (North or South.)

Yam Yam
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Post by Yam Yam » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:15 pm

I know years ago being on the Island was not a requirement. Are you sure and when did they come out with that?


Yam

limey
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Post by limey » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:31 pm

YamYam: That is correct. They changed the spouse citizenship rules around 2002-2003 so it is more difficult now.

Quote...
Citizenship Through Marriage http://www.emigrant.ie/article.asp?iCat ... leID=51374

If you are a returning Irish migrant and you are married to a non-EU (European Union) or EEA (European Economic Area) national, your spouse may be eligible to reside here legally. If your marriage took place before 29 November 2002, your spouse may be able to acquire Irish citizenship after 3 years of marriage by making a post-nuptial declaration of citizenship.

The latest date for making a post-nuptial declaration of citizenship is 29 November 2005. If you were not married before 29 November 2002 and you wish to apply for Irish citizenship, then you must firstly acquire residency in Ireland. (For more information on residency, please look at residency section on page 3). After 3 years of marriage and residency in Ireland, you are entitled to apply to become an Irish citizen.

To be eligible for Irish citizenship your marriage must be recognised as valid under Irish law. Your marriage must be subsisting at the time you make the application (i.e. the marriage must not have ended by divorce or by the death of the Irish spouse). You and your spouse must be living together as husband and wife at the time you make the declaration. You, as the Irish spouse, must submit a sworn affidavit to this effect at the time your application is lodged. If your marriage ends in divorce or you are no longer live with your spouse after the affidavit and application forms are submitted, your application for citizenship will still be processed.

Application forms are available from the Citizenship Division, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, 13 -14 Burgh Quay, Dublin 2. Or if you are currently living abroad, you should contact your nearest Irish Embassy or Consulate.


The current INIS Irish Spouse page is under re-construction. Says it all really!
See here..
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP07000024

Useful link..
http://www.vfs-ireland.co.in/forms/IrishSpouseVisa.pdf

Platinum
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Post by Platinum » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:43 pm

OR does Ireland think that judgements of the European Court of Justice do not apply to it?
Well, they seem to think that EU directives don't apply to them, so I see no reason why the Irish would take the European Court of Justice judgements seriously, either.

I wish I had the conviction that some of you here do, that applying under EU laws and writing to the Irish authorities saying so would do it. The thing is...I'm pretty sure it won't. I'm sure *someone* at the Irish immigration service knows of the Singh rule, but I'm also sure that no one you would actually talk to, or who receives your application, will have heard of it, or know how to apply it. The lack of communication between the Irish DoJ, the garda immigration bureau, immigration officers at the airport, and various embassies, is just shocking.

And, as a lot of us have experienced, you just hit a wall with the people you talk to. They're sure they know the rules. If they haven't been given explicit directions for certain cases, they just won't do anything. And that's that. There's no recourse, unless you sue.

yankeegirl
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Post by yankeegirl » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:51 pm

I know years ago being on the Island was not a requirement. Are you sure and when did they come out with that?
Yep, I'm sure, and Limey's post is dead-on. I'm married to an irish citizen and the current law regarding citizenship is part of the reason we are in Northern Ireland and not elsewhere in the UK. It's the best of both worlds at the moment, dealing with UK instead of Irish immigration, and my residence here counts towards Irish citizenship further down the road.

yankeegirl
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Post by yankeegirl » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:04 pm

She told me if I have any more quieries I can send an email to visamail@justice.ie
Hey Ciara,

I just emailed them as well. Hubby and I have no definite plans to move back down south but the idea gets tossed around every once in a while. (Usually when he's homesick for Dublin.) I always figured we'd go back using the Singh route if we ever did, but with the responses you've been getting it's definitely worth looking into. I'll let ya know if they respond.

ciaramc
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Post by ciaramc » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:06 pm

Can anyone tell me if the form I have is the correct one! It says EU1 APPLICATION FOR A RESIDENCE CARD- NON EEA FAMILY MEMBER!

Or do I have to fill in something else first!

ciaramc
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Post by ciaramc » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:09 pm

Thanks Yankee,

I know the feeling homesick ...I have been away for 6 years and desperately want to head home ...and it just seems there are so many obstacles in my way!!!

We seem to know the laws better than the immigration office!

Yam Yam
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Post by Yam Yam » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:12 pm

I thought dealing with the hurdles in the UK were bad. This is ridiculous! I am about to leave for a 20 day trip tomorrow and I wanted to get an application of to them today but can't find the application form anywhere.

Sure, I could move to the North instead but will be giving up a free house in Dublin and there would be no point in going then. My move date is October and from what I have been reading it is not likely for her to have a visa by then. I wrote the visamail people a couple of times and no response on where to find the application.

So my next question is what will be the implications of me taking her to Dublin via the North? I am a honest man who tries to play by the book but this seems like a reasonable option.

Any thoughts?

Yam

ciaramc
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Post by ciaramc » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:22 pm

So Yam you haven't got a reply from the visa people ? Surprise surprise ...I swear sometimes its like banging your head against a brick wall!

Yam Yam
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Post by Yam Yam » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:32 pm

ciaramc wrote:So Yam you haven't got a reply from the visa people ? Surprise surprise ...I swear sometimes its like banging your head against a brick wall!
I have all day to sort this out but only today. I see you might be one step ahead of me. I wish I knew which was the correct form and where to get it. The inis website is a disgrace to the Irish people because it looks to be written and maintained by a 10 year old!

ciaramc
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Post by ciaramc » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:41 pm

Tell me about it...I find it so hard I live in an non-english speaking country ...so it is so difficult to get info or even get through to people!

And when you do eventually get through they cannot help you!

limey
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Post by limey » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:10 pm

Yam: If you want to apply for a spouse visa as an Irish citizen (instead of using the EU route) then I believe the form you need is V.A 1. This is just a general visa form.

You can get a copy of this from the UK Irish Embassy address below. (I applied for one recently from the Irish Consulate in Edinburgh and it arrived the day after.)

Irish Embassy
Passport & Visa Sections
Montpelier House
106 Brompton Road
London SW3 1JJ

Telephone: (020) 7225 7700
Fax: (020) 7225 7777/8

Passports Office: Monday-Friday 09.30-16.30

Visa Office: Monday-Friday 10.00-12.00

Yam Yam
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Post by Yam Yam » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:26 pm

limey wrote:Yam: If you want to apply for a spouse visa as an Irish citizen (instead of using the EU route) then I believe the form you need is V.A 1. This is just a general visa form.

You can get a copy of this from the UK Irish Embassy address below. (I applied for one recently from the Irish Consulate in Edinburgh and it arrived the day after.)

Irish Embassy
Passport & Visa Sections
Montpelier House
106 Brompton Road
London SW3 1JJ

Telephone: (020) 7225 7700
Fax: (020) 7225 7777/8

Passports Office: Monday-Friday 09.30-16.30

Visa Office: Monday-Friday 10.00-12.00
Perhaps they are not to fond of EU treaty rights and this might be the only option. Does anyone know how long this will take?

How much does it cost?

And if the form can be downloaded?

Cheers,
Yam

Yam Yam
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Post by Yam Yam » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:29 pm


juju1979
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Post by juju1979 » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:19 pm

I just got a response from the visa people they told me they are forwarding my enquiries onto the EUtreatyrights section in Dublin....not even an hour since I sent the email....I'm impressed! :shock: :shock:

John
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Post by John » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:35 pm

Well I'm impressed that they even have an EU Treaty Rights section! :roll:

Next instalment eagerly awaited.
John

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:12 pm

Surprisingly enough, they have a treaty rights section...question is, what do they actually do (apart from sending denial letters)?
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP07000025
eutreatyrights@justice.ie

limey
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Post by limey » Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:55 pm

It may be free! See below...

Visa Fees
From the 1 March 2004 standard non-refundable Visa Application Processing Fees apply as follows:

Single Journey €60
Multiple Journey €100
Transit €25

See here...
http://foreignaffairs.gov.ie/home/index.aspx?id=8780

Communications charges may also be levied in some cases and information in this regard, and on the fee in your local currency, is available from your local Embassy or Consulate.

Some applicants are not required to pay a fee. This includes Visa required spouses and certain family members of EEA citizens (including Irish nationals) provided that proof of the relationship is provided with the application. In addition applicants from some countries are not required to pay a fee. As this changes from time to time information in this regard should be sought from your local Embassy of Consulate or by calling the Immigration and Citizenship Office Helpline on 353 1 616 7700.

Yam Yam
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Post by Yam Yam » Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:24 pm

Okay,

I now have the EU-1 and V.1.A forms.

I have several different checklist to what include.

The justice.ie folks did not specify and I don't want my wife to part with her passport for an undefined amount of time.

Can some one tell me the response time to expect using either of these applications?

Has anyone consulted an Irish immigration lawyer and what is there take on this and how much will they charge?

Cheers,
YAM

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