For Kayalami please. Degree Equivalence

kfaruki · Post by **kfaruki** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:36 pm

I am new in this forum and trying to learn to post messages. Never used such platforms before.

My question is that whether a Bachelor Degree issued by a recognized university in Pakistan is equivelant to a Bachelor degree in UK.

Thanx

Kayalami · Post by **Kayalami** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:52 pm

kfaruki · Post by **kfaruki** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:59 pm

Thank you indeed. Appreciate your response.

has2004 · Post by **has2004** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:09 pm

Kashif ,
i had confirmed with NARIC that only Bachelor degree from UET is considered equal to UK's Bachelor degree .
If someone from pakistan need to have 15 points for graduation then he needs to have master's degree in his hand .By the way you don't need this because u r already qualified as u r MBA from US .
See i Recognized u .Do send me a mail on my hotmail account .I am in UK these days

Hassan Altaf

bkhan · Post by **bkhan** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 7:01 am

A 4 year engineering degree from Pakistan is usually considered equivivalent to a UK bachelors degree as long as the institution is approved by the HEC. An MA/MSc from Pakistan is equal to a UK Bachelor. An MPhil from Pakistan is equal to a UK Masters.

Also, a degree from UET may be approved by the NARIC but according to my info, its not approved by the Engineering councils of many countries inc. Australia, Canada, US and probably the UK. This means you may have tough time getting a job as an engineer if your degree is from UET. The UET was removed from the approval list because of the low quality of graduates and corruption in the examination system. You may get admitted to a Masters degree on the basis of Pakistani engineering degree but its extremely hard to find a job on the basis of a Pakistani engineering degree.

Pakistanis with Masters degrees from QAU, PU and Karach Uni enjoy a better reputation than engineers.

NMSheikh · Post by **NMSheikh** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:40 pm

Yes, it’s right that 4/5 years bachelor’s degree from Pakistan (e.g. professional engineer or doctor) is termed equivalent to Bachelor’s degree of UK provided it is recognized by NARIC.

An M.Sc. or M. Phil. From Pakistan, which is undertaken after a 4 years Bachelor’s degree is also termed as equivalent to M.Sc. and M. Phil of UK (again subjected to reorganization of the Uni by NARIC). What NARIC see is the contents of curriculum and number of years involved in education. Generally an educational track record, which is built on 18 years time to Bachelors qualification, is viewed as OK depending on curriculum thought and standard of institution.

Comparison of the graduates from different institutions of Pakistan (like QA, PU, UET, UCET, KU etc) vary from person to person. I have seen many persons from QA & PU facing failure in immigration as compared to graduates from UET or UCET. On the other hand, there also exist many cases where engineers are struggling, whereas M.Sc. electronics or M.Sc. Physics got success. So, the comparative repute of institutions is not coming in the way of success. As long as institutes are recognized by HEC & vetted by NARIC (which is the case), the strength of case depends entirely on the individual.

Regards

bkhan · Post by **bkhan** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 6:20 pm

You may get an approval from the NARIC but to work as an engineer in the UK you will need recognition from the respective engineering council. UET graduates do not qualify for this registration.

An M.Sc from Pakistan = UK bachelors.
An MPhil from Pakistan (2 years after MSc) = UK Masters (provided its from a recognized uni).

Personally I think the content/quality of Pakistani MPhil or Msc is inferior to their counterparts offered in UK, or other first world countries. I am referring to syllabus and course content.

NMSheikh · Post by **NMSheikh** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:30 pm

but to work as an engineer in the UK you will need recognition from the respective engineering council. UET graduates do not qualify for this registration

This is not always true. Loads of engineers (including those from UET) are working as an engineer in UK.

An M.Sc from Pakistan = UK bachelors.
An MPhil from Pakistan (2 years after MSc) = UK Masters (provided its from a recognized uni).

Authenticated by NARIC, endorsed by HSMP through various cases. M.Sc. and/or M. Phil. From Pakistan, which is undertaken after a 4 years Bachelor’s degree is classified equivalent to M.Sc. and/or M. Phil of UK (subjected to reorganization of the Uni by NARIC).

Personally I think the content/quality of Pakistani MPhil or MSc is inferior to their counterparts offered in UK

I can assure this is not the case. Research works from the front line institutions of Pakistan is recorded as reference materials in renowned UK universities. Though, examples are few but it is because of the proportion of educational infrastructure in both the countries.

Regards

bkhan · Post by **bkhan** » Sat Apr 03, 2004 5:45 am

NMSheikh wrote:
This is not always true. Loads of engineers (including those from UET) are working as an engineer in UK.
You cannot work as an engineer untill your degree is recognized by the Engineering council. Usually There are loads of UET engineers who are working in super markets.

Authenticated by NARIC, endorsed by HSMP through various cases. M.Sc. and/or M. Phil. From Pakistan, which is undertaken after a 4 years Bachelor’s degree is classified equivalent to M.Sc. and/or M. Phil of UK (subjected to reorganization of the Uni by NARIC).
Thats true for immigration purposes but its next to impossible to get a job based on that degree. You will need a UK degree or experience in the field.

I can assure this is not the case. Research works from the front line institutions of Pakistan is recorded as reference materials in renowned UK universities. Though, examples are few but it is because of the proportion of educational infrastructure in both the countries.

Thats not quite true. The GIK ranks 44th in Asia-Pacific (according to Asia Times survey). Rest of the institutions do not qualify for a rank. The Pakistani institutions lag far behind most Western or Eastern institutions when it comes to research work. Probably you can point to some international journals that have published research by Pakistani institutions.

NMSheikh · Post by **NMSheikh** » Sat Apr 03, 2004 11:35 am

Dear bkhan,

This discussion is going beyond the scope of subject. I just tried to give correct information:

I myself am an engineer, working as manager strategic planning with Voda Group with no Engineering Council in picture. I have recruited a number of Pakistani engineers in same scenario. None of my known Pakistani engineers (30+) faced such requirement and none of them are working in a supermarket.

Here is a drift from the subject. Apart from immigration, degrees in questions are very much accepted by the leading companies of UK (of course I am sure about telecom companies), if they are acquired through the path stated above.

Yet another drift. I recorded a comment on the inferiority of Paki work. I specifically said that Paki works do have it’s recognition in UK. Uni of Manchester, Opto Electronics (Dr. Zuberi’s publications). Uni of Birmingham, VLSI (Dr. Habib Ullah’s papers), Uni of Cambridge, Physics, (Dr. Zuberi & Dr. Noor’s papers).

Regards

bkhan · Post by **bkhan** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 4:48 pm

You have not given any proof regarding any of your claims.
I have seen people with MSc from UET and working as attendants in shops. In my 8 years of international career as an IT professional (US and the UK), I have never seen any Pakistani engineering universities' graduates working as engineers (unless they get a Masters from a foreign university).

Most research journals are available online. Make sure you post a link to the concerned articles.

An engineer cannot work as an engineer unless his qualifications are recognized by the respective engineering council.

Any way, I do not want to continue this discussion as it will be like opening a can of worms.

Kindest regards
B. Khan

NMSheikh · Post by **NMSheikh** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 11:53 pm

bkhan,

I feel sorry about all this and am replying reluctantly just because other readers are not mislead.

First of all I am not at all supposed to prove any thing to you. On this forum, people share the experiences on sincere basis and don’t present the proofs.

I have no claims, I am just telling what I have seen, practiced, did myself and with number of my juniors i.e. engineers working in their profession without involving engineering council and just based on the engineering degree from Pakistan. Where as you are telling what you have not seen yourself i.e. engineers working under this scenario.

Moral of story – Accept what others has seen and you have not (if you want to believe).

My international career is double the years as of yours and in about 7-8 different countries (including UK & US). I again feel sorry for the people you are talking about. There must be some thing wrong with them.

Yes, online research journals are available but not most. Also I am not saying about research journals, I am talking of research papers. I think I have narrowed down the locations quite reasonably. I don’t remember shelf numbers.

And my dear, Can is already open. I am trying to clean the table.

Regards

bkhan · Post by **bkhan** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 5:19 am

Sir,

Its you who is trying to mislead people. Its sorry to see someone misleading Pakistani engineers (who listen to people like you, leave their country and end up working in service stations and shops).

Re: Research Papers:
All research papers are published in research journals and all journals are available on the Internet. All the journals have the list of articles available for free on the Internet.

Lets finish this discussion as there is no use opening a can of worms. In your attempt to clean the table, you are creating a bigger mess.

GwaiLo · Post by **GwaiLo** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:16 pm

Neither of you are wrong, but both of you simplify the real situation.

Anybody can call themselves an Engineer, there is no need even to be literate to do so.

There are no general restrictions upon anyone calling themselves an Engineer and in many disciplines, no restrictions on practising.

However, for the most part professional engineers in many disciplines are expected by employers/clients to be either Chartered Engineers or Incorporated Engineers. Both titles are protected in law and the holders must meet minumum criteria as laid down by the Engineering Council.

There is also a great deal of legislation in the UK which impacts indirectly upon practising as an Engineer either at the technical or professional level. Incedentlally anyone can call themselves a professional, but traditionally only those people who are members of a body incorporated by Royal Charter are considered "professionals" as the terms of incorporation provide protection to and an overiding duty to clients and the public at large.

I can't go through all of the details it would take me days or weeks, but I can give a couple of examples. If you wanted to work as an engineer on domestic gas Spam you are required to be CORGI registered. If you want to provide structural design services you must be a competent person, although that in law requires no particular qualification, in practice it means that potential employers, mindful of being sued if something goes wrong, look to the Engineering Council standards as providing good evidence of whether a person is competent.

Professional firms in construction (which is where I practice) are extremely unlikely ever to employ anyone who does not meet, or who is not training and on route to obtaining Chartered or Incorporated status.

Hence it is a can of worms in the sense that:
1) Anyone call call themselves an Engineer in the UK
2) There are few direct regulations governing who is qualified to do what.
3) There is a huge swathe of indirect regulation or self regulation which essentially restricts who can practice as an Engineer in many disciplines, particularly in the more mature disciplines and those where health and safety issues are of importance.

NMSheikh · Post by **NMSheikh** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 8:59 pm

Hi all,

I would now rather stay silent on this topic with following concluding lines.

Thanks GwaiLo for your views. Certainly, some jobs would need association of certain bodies, not all.

Telecom engineers from Pakistan (already in UK or intend to come) can take my words. Your degree would at the most require only NARIC’s comparability (and that too, if asked) and that’s it. Please do crosscheck to lessen your fears. Once you are on track or already on track (i.e. not working on service stations or shops) please do update this forum with ground realities.

Good Luck all

NadeemS · Post by **NadeemS** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:08 pm

Hi all,

I am a telecomm engineer (from UET, Pakistan) and am working in UK as senior telecom consultant in a giant telecom firm.

I would like to share my experience in context of this discussion:

1. I did my Masters from UET after engineering from the same University. During HSMP, my Master’s degree has been given points for Masters and not for Bachelor’s.

2. No one has ever asked me any thing regarding engineering council stuff. Many of my fellows are also working as professional engineers with leading telecomm companies and they also have not faced any requirement related to engineering council.

Mr. Sheikh is very right in his information.

Cheers

AsherY · Post by **AsherY** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 1:25 pm

Hi everybody.

Interesting discussion to read. At the same time I felt sorry and would like to say that we all should have maturity, decency, patience and courage to respect the information given by others. For example, if I have not experienced or seen a thing, it by no means reflect that it does not exist.

I am in my mid career in the telecom industry and am sure that at least in telecom market of UK, engineers from Pakistan can work in the designation profession (i.e. as an engineer) without any registration or affiliation with local engineering council. Like NMSheikh & NadeemS, many of my fellows are also working since ages at responsible positions in UK and never been asked for such requirement.

Rgds

GwaiLo · Post by **GwaiLo** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:49 pm

NadeemS
I am also not saying anything about immigration, I haven't a clue about that. I am telling you from 30 years as a professional born and working in the UK that many employers will look to Chartered or Incorporated status as the important evidence of competence. So my comments are relevant only to employment prospects in the UK, not whether one qualifies to work in the UK.

I did say most disciplines, not all disciplines. Particularly mature disciplines and those where health and safety are particularly important issues. It may not apply to telecoms, it may not apply to IT, it may not apply to many things.

It certainly applies to Civil, Structural, Building Services, Mining, Water, Gas, Electrical (as against electronic) and lots of others that I am personally aware of.

NadeemS · Post by **NadeemS** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:31 pm

GwaiLo,

This is certain that without need of reading between the lines, it is obvious that I extended my views in connection with NMSheikh’s post and not yours. However, like NMSheikh, I would also say that “Thank you for your views. Certainly, some jobs would need association of certain bodies, not all.” I can’t conclude that anyone is negating you.

The question marks in discussions were not that who can or can’t call themselves engineers or who are termed as professional in UK (although every information is most welcome) but the chain was regarding “degree equivalence” & “engineering council’s association to work as an engineer”. NMSheikh, AsherY & myself only shared the ground realities in contrast to bkhan’s information and did not negate your views. Like, we have firm views regarding degree equivalence and engineering council free working in telecom sector, you must be true in yours field(s). We all respect each other’s sincerity and information.

Regards

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For Kayalami please. Degree Equivalence

For Kayalami please. Degree Equivalence