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[OL7MAX]

I don't recall claiming that an amnesty would be good for job-creation. Please point me to which part of my post suggests that. In fact, I've stated clearly that my reply wasn't an issue of legal vs illegal. It was an absolute - any increase in population creates demand.

Let's take you back to your earlier post:

That's very confusing.....immigrants don't create more jobs, business, investment, and expansion, and government expenditure does. That's why you need immigrants - more jobs due to a booming economy and declining population, not a booming economy because of immigrants.

It's confusing because you aren't concentrating. Immigrants create demand which is fulfilled by businesses creating jobs and services. That is irrespective of whether they are legal or illegal. It also applies to a larger population resulting from a higher birth rate. More people = more goods and services. As simple as that. OK?

@avjones

I didn't dispute that there are people who are illegal immigrants but have not broken the law.

Good! I'm glad we cleared that up. 'Cause that's exactly what it looked like you were saying.

[sakura]

I think you don't read my posts fully. I'm trying to point to you that I am referring to Rawling's post about why an AMNESTY is good for job creation!
Please read the posts in order - you can't take one section of what I write and then argue it out of context. The whole point of this thread is to talk about why an amnesty is good/bad, not disregarding the difference(s) between legal/illegal...that is the whole point of this thread?

I don't recall claiming that an amnesty would be good for job-creation. Please point me to which part of my post suggests that. In fact, I've stated clearly that my reply wasn't an issue of legal vs illegal. It was an absolute - any increase in population creates demand.

I know you never, but you're going on about something else. I was replying to Rawling's initial post, then you chipped in about demand-side creating business (obviously), so I - still referring to Rawling's point! - asked why an amnesty would help. Because the whole conversation prior to your post was about an amnesty creating more jobs....I tried to bring it back to Rawling's post about amnesties and jobs, but it seemed you were writing about demand and business, which was not the point of the conversation.

Anyway, I concentrated fine, but you took a snippet of what I wrote and stopped referring to the actual post to which I replied, so I give up...

[Rawling]

Sakura,

I don't see the great difficult you have understanding the point i am making. By the way i was responding to Olisun point that if immigrants were to be given amnesty there gonna be less job for legal migrants.

Immigrants normally tend to come with creativity, new energy, highly motivated, new ideas and new ways of looking at things. If undocumented were to be given legal status of course they will put there above quality to good use and will direct or indirect create jobs. These are type of people who have left security of kith and kin. These are people who by their very nature looking to be independent and provide for their relatives and families

In undocumented population there are many entrepreneur, businessmen and people with other professionals. Given opportunity they can do great things. A good example right here is OL7MAX. He is employing few British citizens. Now if he had full benefit and freedom which average British citizen enjoy he might be able to expand his business significantly may be 10 times may be 100 times.

I have no doubts there are thousands of entrepreneurs like him in undocumented migrants ranks. All they need is freedom to do their stuff.

The other point i was making was the resources currently used to try to deport all these people over the next 30 years can be invested in different areas.

The point is giving amnesty to undocumented workers will not means less job for legal migrants.

Also note the words i use in reply to Olisun post {not strictly true}. I am happy to explain to you again later as i am short of time at moment

[olisun]

By the way i was responding to Olisun point that if immigrants were to be given amnesty there gonna be less job for legal migrants.

When did I say that?

In undocumented population there are many entrepreneur, businessmen and people with other professionals. Given opportunity they can do great things.

They why can't they legalise their stay by getting the appropriate visas??

I am sure if many are entrepreneur's, businessmen and people with other professionals then they shouldn't have problems getting the appropriate visa and the govt. will be more than happy to help them.

A good example right here is OL7MAX. He is employing few British citizens. Now if he had full benefit and freedom which average British citizen enjoy he might be able to expand his business significantly may be 10 times may be 100 times.

Do you have any data (% value) to back up your claim that undocumented workers will create more jobs?

[Rawling]

In any case a way will have to be found to deal with undocumented migrants sooner or later.

[Rawling]

[quote="olisun''] When did I say that?].[/quote]

This is direct quote from you
''people who work without the proper paper work are denying the same opportunity which a person with legal paper could have done.''


[quote="olisun'']They why can't they legalise their stay by getting the appropriate visas??

I am sure if many are entrepreneur's, businessmen and people with other professionals then they shouldn't have problems getting the appropriate visa and the govt. will be more than happy to help them.[/quote]

It is not that simple if it was many would have done so already. some of them can't go back to their home countries.


[quote="olisun'']Do you have any data (% value) to back up your claim that undocumented workers will create more jobs?[/quote]

Not currently as nobody knows the numbers of undocumented population. The word i use note {strictly not true} [/quote]

[avjones]

"If they had a right to remain legally then why would anyone be arguing for/against the amnesty referred to in the OP? You've lost me."

Some seem to think that they have a right to be made legal, and that being here means that the government is obliged to legalise them.

[olisun]

This is direct quote from you
''people who work without the proper paper work are denying the same opportunity which a person with legal paper could have done.''

I am talking about the current situation and not what will happen in the future after any amnesty (if any)

It is not that simple if it was many would have done so already. some of them can't go back to their home countries.

Then apply for Asylum and that is one way to make your status "legal" or if you are really that skilled then you have a valid argument and you shoild get your visa sorted out.

"Can't go back to the home country and only an amnesty will solve all the problems" is a lame excuse.

[OL7MAX]

Some seem to think that they have a right to be made legal, and that being here means that the government is obliged to legalise them.

And rightly too! Yes, I would support that some of them be made legal purely because they've been here a long time and the incompetent government hasn't managed to catch and deport them.

Note: The above applies to certain specific circumstances only.

For example, you were a minor when your parents brought you here and you were given a number etc., and admitted into a school. You duly passed out, got a NI/PAYE number by sending off the application, got a job, got married, had kids here and never realised that your parents ultimately failed in their asylum claim and didn't tell you. Is it right for the government to bundle you, your wife, your kids and dog to some country you can't even remember ever being in? Bear in mind that you have done nothing illegal yourself. When you became an adult the government treated you like a UK citizen and reinforced that image by collecting your taxes, sending you voting cards for every election, giving you full access to NHS treatment.... for a whole decade or two. They knew where you were, they were the only ones (apart from your parents) who knew your position wasn't legal but they allowed you to build a life here and never even dropped you a note on you reaching adulthood to explain the situation to you?

avjones, would you support not legalising in the above case?

[Hyks]

Hello Forum,

I am a new entrant on this discussion board, having read a lot of posts my heartfelt thanks goes to all the members for providing expertise immigration advice. Needless to say, I thought of asking a question but the wealth of information from the previous posts was absolutely valuable to understand my stance.

Thanks to all of you.

Please have a look at the following http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... imm105.xml

[OL7MAX]

Great link, Hyks. Welcome to the boards. That link is worthy of its own thread if you want to start one.

Of course the UK doesn't have much of a choice and has to extend an amnesty to at least some of the "illegal immigrants". Don't expect politicians to call this spade a spade though.

[vivekR]

OL7MAX,

Our friend here may be a very much true and eligible case. Especially people displaced from the war torn nations. they really have more moral grounds than anyone else. I have travelled extensively around the globe in the last 16 years, seens a lot of places and cannot say I can put this anymore strongly. But try and look at the situation that is here now. Most of them have come here with not even half as much truth in their stories.

Since you own a business, let me ask you a simple question. In your line of business (hoping that it is not undocumented as well), I am sure there may be other players/ operators. Since you mentioned that you paid a lot of tax, and that you will continue to pay them over a given period of years. How will you feel if someone told you of, not one, two or three but a group of people who are not paying those taxes at all?

The country has a set of rules and laws made for the society to coexist. They chose and implemented these laws on their own land for their own purposes. If you now wish to join them, it is not unfair to be asked to obey their rules. You may come from which ever country, but if you chose to come here you were well aware of the 'morality' issues. It is just not right to play the morality card here! Two wrongs don't make it right.

Surely there must be loads of things in your country people here will call some names, like you call them same. Would you allow in your place of origin, where your family or friends live, a foreigner to tag them with similar names? Or are you living in heaven where no one does no wrong?

Whether you may accept it or not, this country is definitely one that questions itself as a society. They have people marching down the streets with anti-national slogans and yet it takes years to draw up a legislation to ban it. Try that in other moral countries and see where you stand? If you are allowed to breathe you are lucky!! We as foreigner owe a greater responsibility towards our country men to hold the image right for them.

And Olisun,

I noticed you never have a positive comment. Always boderline rude and negative impact!

[olisun]

And Olisun,

I noticed you never have a positive comment. Always boderline rude and negative impact!

Thanks for spending time to read thru my 900+ posts and coming to that conclusion.....

[Rawling]

I am talking about the current situation and not what will happen in the future after any amnesty (if any)

Then apply for Asylum and that is one way to make your status "legal" or if you are really that skilled then you have a valid argument and you shoild get your visa sorted out.

What is that all about i thought we are discussing issues. Whether personal i am skilled or not was not part of the discussion and i haven't mention anyof that in this thread..

"Can't go back to the home country and only an amnesty will solve all the problems" is a lame excuse.

Nobody is suggesting amnesty will solve all the problem but will solve a lot of problem nothing can solve all the problem. As for my situation me and my fiance we working on it.

Whether some people can go back or not i don't know i don't think you do either for certainly. You have never been in their shoes. I don't think you can make that call whether to some people is lame excuse or reality.

Anyway i am talking on general terms about undocumented migrants in UK many have been students here and have acquired qualification from UK institution. Others have been working for longtime they have acquired very good experience which can be put to good use if they were to be granted amnesty. Others have the partners and children here.
This thread was started by OP to share his thought and with others about undocumented population circumstances and their future. OP specify we should stick to the issues.

Some people have trouble believing that some undocumented immigrants have important skills and can make valuable contribution to the society if were given the chance.

[olisun]

Some people have trouble believing that some undocumented immigrants have important skills and can make valuable contribution to the society if were given the chance.

I don't think anybody (except the HSMP candidates who have been effected with the recent changes) will have problems with amnesty provided to undocumented immigrants who make valuable contribution to the society.

The problem is the negative impact it will have on the immigration system which I don't think you are taking that into consideration. The negative impact being more and more people will be encouraged to become illegal.

If the govt. tightens the immigration system prohibiting further exploitation of the system, then I think the country would happy welcome an amnesty to all those who make valuable contribution to the system.

And till that time a majority will oppose to an amnesty.

[jimquk]

VivekR wrote that "They chose and implemented these laws on their own land for their own purposes", so we should all just accept that. However, how do we account for the fact that so many people in the world live in countries where they have no say in who govrens them, no economic or other freedoms, no chance for a half decent life, and that people take a huge risk by moving abroad as undocumented migrants?

Since we are talking morality here, how is it moral that the rich countries of the world loot the poor countries of everything, including the HSMP types, and impose unequal trade arrangements, and replace governments that might put the rights of poor people above those of mostly western capitalists? We insist that there must be freedom of movement of capital and goods, but refuse it for labour. Why? Because the poor must know their place?

I am not saying that third world countries don't have their own share of responsibility, but until these rich countries do something to build a more just, more moral if you like world, they will continue to pay a price in migration pressures.

I am far from thinking that an amnesty will solve all problems, but it would help. Are people aware that remittances sent by migrants are larger than all the government and charitable aid put together? I am aware that the migrants that make it to the UK do not represent the poorest of the poor, but nevetheless their success can translate into remittances sending more children to school etc in the home countries.

Perhaps you think I am an idealist, but this is also the reality lived by hundreds of thousands in the UK, to say nothing of other countries.

OK rant over, got to go back to work!

[sakura]

I'd like to hear what the HSMP/WP holders think of the possibility of an amnesty. If any of the HSMPers from the the main HSMP would like to give their views, I'd be interested in reading your opinions. Of course I don't assume they are "one voice" - some might think an amnesty is good, others bad, others might be anthropologists, still others neocon economists, I dunno.

In fact - I can extend the below question to all on a valid visa:
What do you visa holders think of the possibility of an amnesty?

[OL7MAX]

How will you feel if someone told you of, not one, two or three but a group of people who are not paying those taxes at all?

I know of several people not paying their own taxes. In some countries the first thing you'd do is tattle on them. That's not considered "English". I live and let live. Also, it's not my job to do the tax inspectors' job. It's imposing enough to expect me to collect VAT on behalf of the government and to collect PAYE and NI and administer the complex maze of payroll management. That I have to pay extra (payroll admin fees) each time the stupid government brings in a raft of new maternity or other benefits and rules is rubbing salt in my wounds. That's not to mention making further adjustments for tax credits, tax credits mistakes/refunds... you name it. It is now a legal obligation on me to police my suppliers.... don't get me started on that one. No, I'm not playing tax inspector in addition to all the other free work I do for HMRC.

The country has a set of rules and laws made for the society to coexist.

I am not advocating that people break the law. For those who've already broken it there are two choices the UK can make: Find them and deport them or... document them. If they could have done the former they'd have done it by now. Since they can't do it there is only one other sensible option: make those people legal.