Should we let sleeping dogs lie?

[ashridge]

Hi all,

My wife and i are zimbabwean and arrived back in the UK in 2001 after getting married back home. As she was on a student visa at the time, we were able to enter on that basis, though I was only granted a 1 month visitor's visa and advised by the officer to apply for something else during that time if I wanted to stay longer. (she "didn't like" the fact that I had previously unsuccessfully applied for a 2-year Working Holidaymaker visa at the British Consulate whilst in Zimbabwe resulting in my passport being endorsed(back in 1997). If I had not explained the circumstances clearly, I'm convinced she'd have refused me entry entierly.

Anyway in that month, we tried to extend my wife's student visa (and simultaneously apply for a spousal visa for me) as a way to "sort out" the situation, but were not successful. The reason our application failed without even being considered was that "it was made out of time", i.e they acknowledged receipt of our application 1 day after the my wife's visa expired (which coincided with my visa expiring).

Soon after, we hired a solicitor and appealed the decision and got them to a least look at our application. Unfortunately, this was refused and we lost the right to appeal and were given notice to return to Zim....circa 2002

As the political & civil situation in Zim worsened, it became very difficult (near impossible) for us to consider returning to such an environment. So we consulted another solicitor about the implications of not returning at that time. It turned out that forced removals to Zim were "temporarily suspended" whilst the world watched and waited. We decied to do the same, and have been watching and waiting since . Over the years though, the situation in Zim has worsened, making it less likely that we will be happy to return to this country we call home.

As a result of our circumstances, my wife now studies at home (to ease her conscience), works from home (to practise her trade), whilst I use my skills to get work (in order to pay our bills and put food on the table). We get no benefits of any kind. Our existence echoes that of many others on this board....all I will say about it is that whoever said "Adversity is the greatest teacher"...knew a thing or two about it....we certainly do.

My wife wants to consultant solictors again... (in order to explore any avenue that may be available to us to "legalise" our status), though my survival instincts tell me to stick it out until either the choice is taken away from us or something changes. In the meantime we have food and sustenance, and though modest, it is a livelihood.

I'd like to know if anyone has any advice regarding the options open to us, before we spend money we cannot afford to on consultations where we might be told what we already know.

Please help.

Many thanks,

Ashridge

ps. Are we overstayer's or illegal immigrants? Does it make a difference?

[avjones]

Have you actually ever claimed asylum?

[jimquk]

As far as I understand, removals to Zim are only suspended for failed asylum-seekers, because of harassment they may allegedly receive in Zim merely by the fact of having claimed asylum abroad.

At the moment you are overstayers, you might consider claiming asylum. Although the fact of claiming six years after arrival would certainly go against you, the Home Office would have to consider your claim, and as things stand you could not be removed ...... but this could change, the matter is I believe currently being tested in the courts.

Before claiming asylum, look around for some free legal advice.

Good luck.

[ashridge]

We have never applied for assylum.

[sakura]

We have never applied for assylum.

You are overstayers because you entered the UK legally, but your visas have expired. You might be able to claim asylum, but there is little prove of a threat of persecution based on race, gender, political opinion, sexuality, religion, etc etc, is there? It would only be because of the situation, which might not be specifically targetting you or your wife. But I'm no expert so I don't know what would happen.

Try contacting JCWI or Citizen's Advice Bureau, or some other free advice professionals.

Do any of you have any relevant skills? You might try securing a work permit or the highly skilled migrant programme.

[Dawie]

You might be able to claim asylum, but there is little prove of a threat of persecution based on race, gender, political opinion, sexuality, religion, etc etc, is there?

Do you ever watch the news? Zimbabwe is in a mess with people of ALL races and persuasions being murdered, tortured and harassed on a daily basis for merely expressing a negative opinion about Robert Mugabe. Women are being raped, children are starving to death, people are dying of treatable HIV/Aids because of a lack of medicines. Electricity cuts are a daily occurance now and many people no longer have drinkable tap water. The entire middle class has disappeared from Zimbabwe including doctors, teachers, engineers, etc.

There are over 3 million illegal Zimbabwean migrants in South Africa, that's 1 quarter of the entire Zimbabwean population. The United Nations Refugee agency has stated that the refugees spam_do_not_click_here into South Africa on a daily basis is the one the biggest movements of humans in peace time.

Like the South African government, the United Kingdom government also has its head in the sand about the situation in Zimbabwe. Currently there is a moratorium on deportations to Zimbabwe but who knows when some idiot immigration judge might overturn that decision again.

Your best if you want to stay in the UK as a Zimbabwean citizen is to lose your passport. The Zimbabwe civil service is in such a mess that they have no capabililty to first of all provide proof that you are a Zimbabwean citizen and second of all to print new passports.

Without proof that you are a Zimbabwean citizen and without any travel documentation the UK cannot deport you to Zimbabwe nor will the Zimbabwean government accept you back.

[Administrator]

.

hired a solicitor and appealed the decision and got them to a least look at our application. Unfortunately, this was refused and we lost the right to appeal and were given notice to return to Zim....circa 2002

But, you have never been served with a deportation order .. only this single request to return?

As the political & civil situation in Zim worsened, it became very difficult (near impossible) for us to consider returning to such an environment.

This needs to be detailed and explained very carefully. It is either the basis to apply for asylum or there are no grounds to apply. Well, you might apply, but rejection would be virtually assured.

So we consulted another solicitor about the implications of not returning at that time. It turned out that forced removals to Zim were "temporarily suspended"

Here you did not receive correct & full information from the solicitor. Can you document this?

Over the years though, the situation in Zim has worsened, making it less likely that we will be happy to return to this country we call home.

Again, your opinion of your happiness will not help. You need to be able to demonstrate harm to yourselves .. if you will attempt asylum.

My wife wants to consultant solictors again... (in order to explore any avenue that may be available to us to "legalise" our status),

Begin with ILPA : http://www.ilpa.org.uk/

It is not your only option if you choose to go this route, but it's a good beginning place and you will have confidentiality ... it will not jeopardize your current situation any more than if you do nothing.

If nothing else, it will give safe avenue for your wife to "do something" and, very hopefully, get guidance in a direction that will help.


And, yes, as has been answered, you are overstayers. That will be a very serious mark against successful application for visas. You'll need professional help to get around it, if it's possible.

If you can make a serious case for asylum, it is probably one of your best options.

Study & learn exactly what real asylum is and document how your circumstances require it. Don't rely on your own 'opinion' of happiness or difficulty or success; that will not help. Documentation will.

If your circumstances for asylum are serious enough, you are not restricted to application in the UK. Keep an open mind about other locations.

Documentation of your skills, talents & education will be necessary, no matter what you do next. Make that portfolio as impressive as you can while remaining truthful.

the Admin

[VictoriaS]

Zimbabwean nationals are not being forcibly returned at the moment. This is not just for failed asylum applications.

I do recommend that you contact www.iasuk.org who will be able to give a free consultation. But your options are limited. Youc ould apply for work permits or student visas, but to get these you would have to go home, and you then run the risk that it wouldn't be approved because of the overstay.

You are in a very difficult situation, and I for one wish the British Government would have some compassion for Zimbabwean nationals. What si likely to happen if you apply for any kind of leave to remain is that it will be refused and you will be granted 'Temporary Admission'. You could then be stuck on TA for years, which is a kind of limbo whereby you don't have to leave the UK but you are not allowed to work.

I wish you the best.


Victoria

[sakura]

You might be able to claim asylum, but there is little prove of a threat of persecution based on race, gender, political opinion, sexuality, religion, etc etc, is there?

Do you ever watch the news? Zimbabwe is in a mess with people of ALL races and persuasions being murdered, tortured and harassed on a daily basis for merely expressing a negative opinion about Robert Mugabe. Women are being raped, children are starving to death, people are dying of treatable HIV/Aids because of a lack of medicines. Electricity cuts are a daily occurance now and many people no longer have drinkable tap water. The entire middle class has disappeared from Zimbabwe including doctors, teachers, engineers, etc.

There are over 3 million illegal Zimbabwean migrants in South Africa, that's 1 quarter of the entire Zimbabwean population. The United Nations Refugee agency has stated that the refugees spam_do_not_click_here into South Africa on a daily basis is the one the biggest movements of humans in peace time.

Like the South African government, the United Kingdom government also has its head in the sand about the situation in Zimbabwe. Currently there is a moratorium on deportations to Zimbabwe but who knows when some idiot immigration judge might overturn that decision again.

Your best if you want to stay in the UK as a Zimbabwean citizen is to lose your passport. The Zimbabwe civil service is in such a mess that they have no capabililty to first of all provide proof that you are a Zimbabwean citizen and second of all to print new passports.

Without proof that you are a Zimbabwean citizen and without any travel documentation the UK cannot deport you to Zimbabwe nor will the Zimbabwean government accept you back.

Yes I do watch the news. I am pointing out that they would make the asylum claim AFTER their visas had expired, after 5-6 years overstaying. So how can they prove they are in a threat of persecution when they didn't initially apply for asylum when they first came. I mean of course the BIA would also ask them "why didn't you apply for asylum initially? Why wait so many years?", which is what I am referring to - which Administrator has also written about - how they can prove their asylum claim is legitimate.

But, I do agree, it would probably be best no to have any evidence of being a Zimbabwean - but mightn't that count against them in the future?

[sakura]

Zimbabwean nationals are not being forcibly returned at the moment. This is not just for failed asylum applications.

I do recommend that you contact www.iasuk.org who will be able to give a free consultation. But your options are limited. Youc ould apply for work permits or student visas, but to get these you would have to go home, and you then run the risk that it wouldn't be approved because of the overstay.
Victoria

Do you think they can argue on compassionate/exceptional grounds (when we find out more details about them), to get the visa renewed from the UK? I do think, though, maybe it would have been possible when their extension was initially refused because of one day...maybe now it would be much harder to prove the exceptional circumstances?

[VictoriaS]

I wish. I have tried and failed on this point with Zimbabwean nationals married to UK nationals. COmpassion doesn't enter into the vocabulary of the Home Office thses days.

Always a chance that you'd get a nice IO who'd grant it, but not likely.


Victoria

[OL7MAX]

Without proof that you are a Zimbabwean citizen and without any travel documentation the UK cannot deport you to Zimbabwe nor will the Zimbabwean government accept you back.

Priceless!!

[Dawie]

Without proof that you are a Zimbabwean citizen and without any travel documentation the UK cannot deport you to Zimbabwe nor will the Zimbabwean government accept you back.

Priceless!!

In fact the BIA do not even bother trying to deport certain countries' nationals because the authorities of these countries either do not cooperate at all in redocumenting their nationals or refuse to readmit them or refuse to acknowledge them as citizens.

[SYH]

Without proof that you are a Zimbabwean citizen and without any travel documentation the UK cannot deport you to Zimbabwe nor will the Zimbabwean government accept you back.

Priceless!!

In fact the BIA do not even bother trying to deport certain countries' nationals because the authorities of these countries either do not cooperate at all in redocumenting their nationals or refuse to readmit them or refuse to acknowledge them as citizens.

Then perhaps he should apply for asylum anyway since they won't send him back, he might get lucky and can legitimize his status. long shot though

[Docterror]

In fact the BIA do not even bother trying to deport certain countries' nationals because the authorities of these countries either do not cooperate at all in redocumenting their nationals or refuse to readmit them or refuse to acknowledge them as citizens.

...I do remember reading somewhere that SA was one of such nationality in question.

[Dawie]

In fact the BIA do not even bother trying to deport certain countries' nationals because the authorities of these countries either do not cooperate at all in redocumenting their nationals or refuse to readmit them or refuse to acknowledge them as citizens.

...I do remember reading somewhere that SA was one of such nationality in question.

No, what you are referring to is the South African government's refusal to take back third-country nationals arriving in the UK with false or fake South African passports, particularly citizens of other African countries.

However I believe the impasse was resolved after the UK threatened to impose visas on South African citizens travelling to the UK (South Africans are currently non-visa nationals).

[ashridge]

We have never applied for assylum.

Do any of you have any relevant skills? You might try securing a work permit or the highly skilled migrant programme.

I have 13+ years IT experience (with some specialisatoins in Security, MCSE, etc), though I've not assesed my points under the HSMP. My wife also has 10+ years experience and qualifications in her trade (Beauty therapy, Hair dressing etc)

If we qualified (on points), would it be possible to apply as skilled persons without first leaving the UK?

[jimquk]

Dawie wrote:

In fact the BIA do not even bother trying to deport certain countries' nationals because the authorities of these countries either do not cooperate at all in redocumenting their nationals or refuse to readmit them or refuse to acknowledge them as citizens.

Any information about which those countries are? Although these things can change at any moment, still this information could give a measure of reassurance to lots of desperately anxxious people.

[voiceofreason]

I live in the US and a good friend of mine from Zimbabwe just got her asylum approved last year and is on her way to getting her permanent residency because of the horrid situation in Zimbabwe. She was a foreign student who's visa ran out so her attorney advised asylum. I should mention that she is 'coloured' - and that played into her case...

Anyway, the net is that everyone knows how horrible the situation is in Zimbabwe so don't be afraid to put your case forward to the UK system, Canada, Australia etc you have nothing to lose and something to gain (potentially)

No one should live in a country without rights --- its a waste of ones youth. If the UK doesn't grant you asylum even after presenting your case then try a different place...keep an open mind.

[Jeff Albright]

Well, guys, in my opinion, if the couple would like to try to gain legal status, they should claim asylum and also put forward human rights arguments, Article 2, 3, 8.
The Home Office will probably refuse, I agree, however the right of appeal will follow. Due to the situation in Zimbabwe, the claim may succeed before a judge. Discretionary Leave will then be given in case of successful appeal, which allows working, welfare benefits and international travel except to Zimbabwe.
If the Home Office refuse and the case is made out, they might themselves give Discretionary Leave without referring the case to the Tribunal.
I do not think there will be an issue with temporary admission. TA is usually given to illegal entrants or to overstayers which come to the attention of immigration service. Making an asylum claim by sending it to the Asylum Casework Directorate using standard application process will not trigger immediate action - there will be a consideration process, maybe interview, maybe a request for the Statement of Additional Grounds. Then there will be a decision, either refusal or grant, then appeal in case of refusal and then AIT hearing. The whole process can take years.
In the meantime, the couple can still continue with their lives, work. career, etc.
I think it is the best way of trying to sort the situation out. What they clearly do not want is to be caught while being illegal, as they may end up in detention and then with the TA. This can cause them financial problems, as their only source of income from their current jobs will be interrupted. However, they may be eligible for NASS support.

Good luck!

[jimquk]

Jeff wrote

The whole process can take years.

This used to be the case, and still is sometimes, however initial decisions are now often given within a week or two, and the substantive AIT appeal within a few months.

Also, the couple may well find themselves disqualified from NASS support because of the lateness of their claim. See http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/docume ... iew=Binary

[ashridge]

Many thanks to all that responded. Much to consider and loads to research on this board.