living in the uk as a freelancer?

[bunny80]

hi, i'm a romanian citizen and i want to live in the UK. can you please tell what are my rights and what are the steps i'll need to take?

i play online poker for a living (i don't know if i'm considered a freelancer or self-employed) and i am doing very well financially. so money won't be a problem, i'm not moving there to live on welfare. the best thing about the uk is that online gambling is both legal and tax free ( a poker pro's paradise) , while in my country it's pretty much a legal no man's land so i can't withdraw too much money right now from my online poker accounts.

what i'd like to do is move to the uk and open a bank acount there so i can withdraw as much as i want without any worries. one problem could be the fact that i'll only have a few thousands when i arrive in the uk since i can't withdraw much right now and i'm not sure if it would be enough for rent, food and other bills. do i need a place before i can get a bank account? all i want is to have access to my online poker money.

so what would i have to do to be able to live there and get a place and a bank account? what are my romanian EU rights, especially since i'm not coming there to live on welfare or take anyone's job? please any kind of help, thank you very much.

[Wanderer]

I think you'd have to pay UK tax on it!

[Dawie]

I don't think gambling is considered to be a form of self-employment. I would suggest Gamblers Anonymous.

[John]

i play online poker for a living

That being the case, there is enough UK tax case law to show that your profits as a professional gambler would be liable to UK income tax. You would be liable to pay National Insurance contributions as well.

Still keen to move to the UK?

[bunny80]

john, poker is tax free in the uk( as in many other EU countries although there are some conditions in some like the servers of the poker site have to be in the EU), as is all gambling for the gambler, although gambling companies do pay taxes. more info here ... http://www.thehendonmob.com/Articles/po ... axman.html. plus i know several uk pro gamblers who make a lot more than i do and pay 0%. they are the envy of the poker world especially the americans who have to pay 35% or something

my main issues are how easy will it be to get a bank account( just an account where i can withdraw from online poker accounts or e-wallets like moneybookers, i don't care about a credit account) and how many months of rent will i have to pay in advance(i read that at least 6 months if i'm considered "high risk"). ty.

[olisun]

/me buys "Poker for Dummies"

[tekaweni]

Hi Bunny,

UK bank accounts are kinda weird in that even the most basic type comes with a cheque book, ie ANY bank account here is effectively a credit facility - and because of that, rules are stricter than in most countries.

Banks here will definitely look for a source of steady income and wont look favourably on a situation where no tax is being paid. Your best bet (no pun intended) might be to apply for an account giving an EU bank account - with a healthy balance and showing regular inputs - as a reference. You will need to be resident here first. It may also help to redefine your occupation to, say, statistical numeric analyst or something :-/

Hope this helps.

[bunny80]

Hi Bunny,

UK bank accounts are kinda weird in that even the most basic type comes with a cheque book, ie ANY bank account here is effectively a credit facility - and because of that, rules are stricter than in most countries.

Banks here will definitely look for a source of steady income and wont look favourably on a situation where no tax is being paid. Your best bet (no pun intended) might be to apply for an account giving an EU bank account - with a healthy balance and showing regular inputs - as a reference. You will need to be resident here first. It may also help to redefine your occupation to, say, statistical numeric analyst or something :-/

Hope this helps.

hi tekaweni and thanks for the serious reply. what if i just declare myself self sufficient as in i'm rich and need no job? it's funny how people don't think this can be a real job and think it's all luck, it's all about patterns and numbers, not much different from what a stock broker does . people think about gangsters and cowboys cheating when almost all the big online winners are 20 year old geeks. you said i'll need to be a resident first, does that mean getting a rented place or something else? if yes how many months of rent will i have to pay in advance? cheers.

[OL7MAX]

bunny80, I understand your situation. I have numerous friends who earn their substantial incomes entirely online either through selling virtual goods/services/real estate in MMORPG, betting like you, contextual advertising (Adsense/Adsonar/YPN), domaining and a million other ways. For those of you who'd really like to explore these this link may prove useful.

Now to your questions: Opening an account is a lot more difficult here after 9/11. If you have someone here to introduce you to a bank, have some forms of ID, a UK address with proof of living at that address - utility bills etc - then you'll probably get a bank account. Most rules are there for people who don't have money. I discovered this only after I started doing well. With money you can pay a landlord for a whole year in advance and you'll find that, suddenly, references don't matter anymore Getting utility bills won't take you more than a few days once you have an address. Apply to BT for a phone, apply to get the gas connection transferred to your name etc. Though those are credit accounts you should have no problem getting them as you don't have an adverse credit history in the UK (you have NO history, presumably). With money you'll find lots of people willing to introduce you to a bank as someone they've known since childhood.

Withdrawing from Paypal, moneybookers, e-gold* etc is as easy as doing a transfer to your bank account. Drawing cash from a bank is not easy even if it's your cash. They have limits of £300 a day and if you want to draw several thousand you have to give them notice, take two forms of ID etc.(till the local staff can identify you by sight)
*With egold you can transfer directly to a debit card without having a bank account!

But considering your question about how many months of rent you need to pay I'm not sure your definition of rich would match a general UK definition. A rich person wouldn't worry about whether he needed to pay 6 months @ £800 or 12 months or, indeed, the next five years.

[vinay shanthi]

/me buys "Poker for Dummies"

me too buying poker for dummies . but guess it will be newbie poker dummies like you and me paying into professionals winnings. but still this looks interesting especially the tax free bit.

but being 'professional' means entails being able to offset your losses from your gains in showing income. does that mean if any losses on this foolish venture by poker newbies will be offset from other income in tax returns. somehow i think now, most tax systems would not allow that. but just a guess. even if they presently allow it, am pretty sure they will close the loophole in tax laws soon.

best of luck getting your visa / residency in uk and do keep us posted about what happens regarding the tax bit. for all you know if you are a high earner you might hit the 40%tax bracket if taxed

[OL7MAX]

No, you can't offset poker losses against other gains just like you can't offset losses at the bookies.

If you are a high earner you might hit the 40%tax bracket if taxed

LOL. It amuses me how many people use the HMRC line about high earners paying 40%. That is not the case. The 40% income tax bracket starts at a fairly low figure and traps many "medium" earners. The wording is a confidence trick - like speed cameras being called "safety cameras". Further, even "low earners" pay in excess of 40%. Try adding up PAYE, 23.8% National Insurance etc.

[VictoriaS]

I think this is the most interesting question we have had on this forum!

I too know a number of profesisonal gamblers...one of them is also Romanian! Perhaps there is something in the genes.

Best of luck with your venture.


Victoria

[OL7MAX]

Vinay, if I'm right poker is not the only skill where earnings are tax free. Try trading e.g. on currencies. Have you explored spread-betting?

[tekaweni]

OL7MAX - interesting link that, with even more interesting links scattered around in there. Amazing what people are doing.

http://www.experienced-people.co.uk/104 ... ey-online/

[Docterror]

OL7MAX - interesting link that, with even more interesting links scattered around in there. Amazing what people are doing.

http://www.experienced-people.co.uk/104 ... ey-online/

I wouldn't be too surprised if he was the author of the site.

[OL7MAX]

I do know a lot of business people and I do know the author of the site if anyone here wants a personal consultation (Docterror, he's got a link on page 2 of that article to something of mine, and you know enough about me to find it - happy hunting ). The arrangement fee would be 10% payable to a regd charity of my choice.

tekaweni. glad you like it. Sometimes I wish I could do some of the clever stuff on there. For example, playing poker. Or domaining. It could mean no premises, no staff, no customers, no HMRC. Heaven!

[bunny80]

is it possible to get this account without having an address or a job in the UK? the phrase ''Once you've found a job and a place to live, you'll probably want to start saving'' makes me think you don't need either to apply and it;s just what i need... will i be able to withdraw money from online poker sites or moneybookers to this account? has anyone had any experiences with it?

http://www.hsbc.co.uk/1/2/personal/curr ... rt_2007/05


my plan would be to find a guest house or a roomie where i would stay for 1-2 months till i can withdraw enough for my own flat or house(which isn't so easy for me since i'm a vegan and need "special" accommodation).

[SYH]

I don't think gambling is considered to be a form of self-employment. I would suggest Gamblers Anonymous.

In any case, it is income and somebody would want it declared.
Oh damn evidently not according to earlier posts.
hey its risky but if you can do it, more power to you
!

[OL7MAX]

my plan would be to find a guest house or a roomie

If you rent a flat you have a tenancy agreement. That's one of the good documents to have when you go to a bank. It proves you live at that address, something they are always very keen to ascertain before opening an account.

[Wanderer]

WRT To taxation I'd be suprosed if out avaricious Gov would miss out on a taxable opportunity.

I'd take the view that the OP's winnings are non-taxable as such, but as soon as he takes any of it as income the IR will want his pound of flesh.

Otherwise we'd all be able to gamble for our salaries, at say one to a million odds, or have your salary as winnings to this simple question "Are you alive?"

Mind you there are some who post here would get that question wrong, including me on a monday morning :)

[bunny80]

for the last time, gambling is NOT taxed in the UK. the companies are taxed but not the gambler. i have been active in the online gambling world for years and talked to many pro punters and poker players from the uk, 100% of them said they don't pay taxes and they declare it to the IR as money from gambling, they don't try to hide it from anyone. as long as you can prove the money comes from the an online gambling site you are just fine and that's easy since the bank traces these things.

back to the bank issue now, i've read people have had problems with HSBC and that they actually need more than just a passport even for that account. so what UK bank would be easiest for me to deal with ?

[Wanderer]

for the last time, gambling is NOT taxed in the UK. the companies are taxed but not the gambler. i have been active in the online gambling world for years and talked to many pro punters and poker players from the uk, 100% of them said they don't pay taxes and they declare it to the IR as money from gambling, they don't try to hide it from anyone. as long as you can prove the money comes from the an online gambling site you are just fine and that's easy since the bank traces these things.

back to the bank issue now, i've read people have had problems with HSBC and that they actually need more than just a passport even for that account. so what UK bank would be easiest for me to deal with ? :cry:

OK mate I hear ya but there is enough case law to show that recreational gambling is tax free but when winning form the main part of you income:

I nabbed this off a taxation site, it's someones opinion (a Tax Consultant) not a fact:

In the UK, income tax is not paid on RECREATIONAL gambling profits (whether it be horse race betting, poker playing...or anything of that nature) This is because, as you have already stated in this forum, gamblers could claim tax back on losses.

However, PROFESSIONAL gambling is completely taxable and all profits must be declared to the IR, just as a business must. Currently, there is no threshold to determine what constitutes a professional gambler. These matters are looked at on a case by case basis. There are two main factors which are likely to determine whether you are a professional or merely a recreational gambler.

The point I'm making is I wouldn't be so sure, our IR is like a pitbull when it sees it can tax something, and they do it retrospectively, six years from memory.

I'm sure you'll be ok mate, it;s a grey enough area but I'm just saying, don't be so 100%, stash some cash away for Mr Brown if he comes knocking, the last thing you want is the tax man chasing you and deporting you after asset stripping you.

Look at Schedule D income, google it.

[petkanov]

Ok, as a Romanian citizen you have no visa residence issues, you simply move here, I know cause I am a bulgarian and know that for a fact. Open your account at Barclays, they open accounts to EU citizens with just showing a passport or ID card. If you cant, use quickstartuk.co.uk, they will chararge you 20 pounds and will open the account for you. Another alternative is www.1stcontact.co.uk they will charge you 35. You don't have to declare that you that you are self sufficient.

[OL7MAX]

Why don't you just search Google for "offshore companies"? People who specialise in setting up offshore companies and trusts are also experts at opening bank accounts. They could open you a bank account in your personal name in a variety of tax shelters. Whether you feel you need a tax shelter or not the advantage is that you don't need to move anywhere, rent an apartment, or do anything more than make a few phone calls from where you are. And they'll also arrange a debit card etc for you.

[bunny80]

Ok, as a Romanian citizen you have no visa residence issues, you simply move here, I know cause I am a bulgarian and know that for a fact. Open your account at Barclays, they open accounts to EU citizens with just showing a passport or ID card. If you cant, use quickstartuk.co.uk, they will chararge you 20 pounds and will open the account for you. Another alternative is www.1stcontact.co.uk they will charge you 35. You don't have to declare that you that you are self sufficient.

those sites seem legit, i could give them a try... i noticed this on one of them though

For many working travellers in the UK, opening a bank account is almost impossible.
Thanks to our special partnership with NatWest QuickStart UK will prepare all documentation to ensure you get your bank account as soon as possible. The Bank Account will be set up within 2 days of applying. All you need to bring is 1) Your Passport, 2) Current Visa /if non EU/,3) Document that proves your residence in the UK.

so they still want proof of residence? i thought i only had to show them my passport.

Why don't you just search Google for "offshore companies"? People who specialise in setting up offshore companies and trusts are also experts at opening bank accounts. They could open you a bank account in your personal name in a variety of tax shelters. Whether you feel you need a tax shelter or not the advantage is that you don't need to move anywhere, rent an apartment, or do anything more than make a few phone calls from where you are. And they'll also arrange a debit card etc for you.

i would do that but i don't think i can withdraw from my poker accounts or moneybookers to an offshore bank.