A never ending journey - REFUSED!!

[Jellybean105]

Hi there

A lot of people on this forum have been helping me through my situation and the summary is in my signature. So.. after a long fight for the right COA and receiving it after almost 4 months.. we received a letter today saying our application for EEA2 has been refused.

It says on the letter:
"Upon assessing the evidence provided, it is not deemed possible to grant you the confirmation you seek as you have provided insufficient evidence to meet the aforementioned criteria.
You may have proved that your British citizen spouse was a self employed person in another EEA state, however you have not provided sufficient evidence that the citizen has returned to the UK. Furthermore, the ferry confirmation letter you have provided informs the opposite sentiment in that you have not proved that your sponsor has ever returned to the UK, after leaving Liverpool to go to Ireland.
You state in your letters that you returned to the UK with your british spouse in 2014 yet have provided no evidence to substantiate your claim. You do not as a result satisfy the criteria in regulation 9 (2b) which requires the British citizen to return to the UK"

When we returned together in Feburary, twice in fact within a week, both times there was no one present at the UK border to stamp our passports. We even asked the officer once we got our baggage and he said he has never heard of a stamp being given to anyone coming from Ireland.

The letter says we can appeal. At the end there is a paragraph that says:
If you consider that you have a right to reside in the UK as a matter of European law and are in a position to submit the necessary information to support your application for a resident card, as recognition of that right, you may alternatively wish to submit a further application.

We are currently out of the country, so passports are with us. We have proof of electronic tickets (and possibly boarding passes but not 100% sure) of us travelling on the same flight to the UK.
Please can someone advise what we should do. Should we submit a new application or should we appeal, if so how do we do that?

[Obie]

Perhaps you should appeal, as they are unlikely to say they were wrong in their assessment.

If it was a case of missing evidence, then it might have been sensible to reapply.

[Jellybean105]

Thank you for the quick reply.

How do we appeal? Do we need to include all the documents we originally submitted or just the new ones? Will an opening letter explaining what we have included to further support our application be enough?
As we are currently out of the country, is it possible to send them a copy of the stamps (from travel overseas) in our passports?

Does anyone know who I can email to reconsider our case?

[dalebutt]

You cannot reconsider by email, has to be sent by post to the same address where you sent your initial application, an appeal form must have been sent along with the refusal notification, you can alternatively submit an appeal online regardless, however you will need to send supporting documents by post.

http://www.justice.gov.uk/tribunals/imm ... um/appeals

[Jellybean105]

Thanks for the link, however, is it the same process for EEA applications? I might just send it by post, but we didn't receive an appeal form??

How long does an appeal usually take? Do we need to send all the documents back or just new evidence? Which is literally just tickets and boarding passes.

Thank you for the help!

[357mag]

Sorry to hear your dilema JB.

Reading through your op a third time I finally understand,
they are refusing because you are not in the UK (more specifically the EEA citizen), there is no evidence you are in the UK in fact you say you are out of the country.
I dont think it works just to come in, submit the application then leave again. They might suspect it is just a means to get you in and then your sponsor goes off somewhere else. What would help is evidence that the sponsor has accomodation in the UK.

The EEA2 application is for folks who have returned, ergo are in the country.
If you are applying for family permit from outside you should use VAF5 (I think)

I think for most cases they allow one review of decision, maybe worth a try if you can prove hes in country.
An appeal can take months so maybe a fresh application when you can meet the criteria?

[Jellybean105]

Hi 357mag

Sorry to confuse you. We were in the country when we applied. We returned from Ireland to the UK in Feb 2014 and we applied for the EEA resident card once we had settled back in the UK for good.
Half way through the process, we requested our passports back for travel. We are currently overseas for a holiday and will be returning soon. Our application was on-going and under EU law the application doesn't get withdrawn.

We are still residing in the UK and at the time of the application my husband also had a valid 6 month UK family permit.

[357mag]

From what I understand applying for EEA2 is not compulsory, its just gonna help get a job. So I guess theres nothing to appeal, you are here legally and that it.

Personally I would ask for a review of their decision and supply evidence of accomodation.

[dalebutt]

Thanks for the link, however, is it the same process for EEA applications? I might just send it by post, but we didn't receive an appeal form??

How long does an appeal usually take? Do we need to send all the documents back or just new evidence? Which is literally just tickets and boarding passes.

Thank you for the help!

If you are referring to the consideration request, it is in form of a letter, you write and provide of in support of your view, the same goes for the appeal, submit that the refusal breaches your right under community legislation, you will do that first before preparing bundle for the tribunal which is much at a later stage.

Appeal times varies depends on where you live, the waiting time could be anything from 2 months to 7 months. I am of the view that you do a reconsideration request, you may save a lot of time by doing that, if there were no malice attached with the initial decision.

[Jellybean105]

Thank you for the information. So, just to confirm.. whether I decide to ask for a reconsideration or appeal I need to write a letter to the EEA department, if there is no appeal form included? Should I address it to the caseworker that signed the decision letter?

I don't understand why you say 'depending on where you live', we live in the UK and we will be returning to the UK. We are just on a holiday at the moment.

Basically, they just want us to prove that we returned to the UK together in Feb 2014. Which is absolutely insane because neither Ireland or UK give entry/exit stamps when us British citizens fly! The only proof we have are two boarding passes on the same flight to the UK which I think is more than enough to prove entry. Do I also need to prove further evidence of my stay in the UK??

Do you think its better to send a reconsideration request or appeal?

[357mag]

Yes write the caseworker a very nice letter asking for reconsideration with the evidence you are providing and also say that in the event of further refusal you intend to appeal.

What DB means is that different areas of the UK the courts can be slower than others.

[dalebutt]

If you decide to appeal, you should follow the previous link, you will be submitting a notice of appeal to the tribunal not the UKBA, a reconsideration request, you will have to send to Liverpool. You can address the reconsideration request to the caseworker.

Waiting times depends on which part of the UK you live,for example someone who lives in Belfast will enjoy a reduced waiting time compared with someone in London, this isn't the official position of the Tribunal, but from study this has always been the case. Have you not a bank account in the UK? A recent utility bill? recent GP appointment? I am of the view that reconsideration request will save you a lot of time.

[Jellybean105]

Thanks 357mag and dalebutt!

I'll get the letter done and send the evidence ASAP! Just what I wanted know

Yes, I recently (14th August) had a dental surgery done at my local hospital but can't find the appointment letter. Do you think the hospital can provide me with any evidence of that? I also went to my dentist at some point and GP to get a vaccination done. How do I get proof of that?
I do have a bank account and recent bank statements, I also have a business in my name registered with HM Revenue. I probably have some NI contribution letters I can send. If you think of anything else, please let me know!

Oh, ops! Sorry I didn't realise you meant within the UK How long do reconsiderations usually take?

Btw, I know its just a confirmation of rights but on the letter it states 'leave the country' blah blah like they write on the UK immigration refusal letters. Is that just standard textbook writing? As I'm sure hes not required to leave under EU law if I have proved my EU treaty rights.
I'm in two minds to write on the letter that my husband has every right to stay in the country whether they give the RC or not! Grr

[dalebutt]

Gp and dental clinic should be able to provide the letters confirming your appointments with them, they are likely to charge a fee, there is no stated processing time for reconsideration request, between 4 to 8 weeks I would say.

Ignore the letter asking him to leave, silly because in any event he has a right of appeal and just about everyone will exercise that right. Don't go on the attack, if ever you will go to the tribunal you may show your colour not at least when you wanted them to make a sane decision on his application.

[eldane]

Hi,

Correct me if I have got the wrong end of the stick; did UKBA not claim there were no proof that your spouse is resident/present in the UK?
If so I can't see that your dental or GP appointments is going to shed any light as to whether or not your spouse is in the UK.

I think you should focus on proving your EEA spouse is resident and present in the UK i.e that could be by payslips, Job seekers allowance confirmation, letting agreements, mortgage, utility bills in your EEA spouse name or even better in both your names etc.

Regards,
Eldanes

[Jellybean105]

Hi eldane

Sorry I didn't make it clear..I am the spouse! Iol.. I'm a British citizen and I was self employed in Ireland for almost a year. My non-eu husband joined me in Ireland half way through the year. We applied for a UK family permit which was valid until April, so we returned to the UK in Feb 2014 and applied for a resident card in March.

They are saying they need proof I actually returned to the UK, so thats why I'm gathering evidence of my return by boarding passes (both to prove we did actually return together) and other extra documents to proof I am living in the UK.

I'm going to go ahead with a reconsideration. I'm thinking I shouldn't mention anything about an appeal just yet until the request has gone through.

[357mag]

JB I think theres a time limit on putting in for an appeal but to be frank a fresh application would be quicker if reconsideration is refused and its only 55 quid so no big deal.

[Jellybean105]

It doesn't say on the letter what the time limit is and theres no appeal form either :/

I hope the reconsideration is successful. I don't mind re-applying, but my husbands UK family permit expired in April so we will have to return to Ireland and re-apply for that and then return to the UK to make a new application. Just another headache

[dalebutt]

Why go and apply for another EEA-FP? He already is legally residing here regardless of the refusal, what's the point of that? If you did an SS I expect you would understand some of the most basic rule of the regulation.

[Jellybean105]

Yes, I do understand the full process. It wouldn't have been a problem if we were still in the UK. We requested our passports back for travel and it got delayed to August so we left for overseas after my husbands FP had expired (in April).

If we were to make a new application, they would need our passports but without a valid FP we can't get back into the country. We could get in via Ireland as my husband has an Ireland 5 yr resident card, but if we are going Ireland anyway then might as well get a free FP for the UK.

Hope that makes sense.

[jbminger]

From what I understand applying for EEA2 is not compulsory, its just gonna help get a job. So I guess theres nothing to appeal, you are here legally and that it.

Personally I would ask for a review of their decision and supply evidence of accomodation.

This may or may not be helpful to the OP. The UK's position that a Residence Card (EEA2) is not compulsory is like saying Spam is not compulsory. As in, you don't really need Spam, but if you don't have it you simply die, no biggie!

If you are a non-EEA spouse and an employer is interested in hiring you, the employer says, can we see your passport (which doesn't have a residence card in it because it's not compulsory). Employer says, doesn't look like you can work in the UK. You say, but I can work here, as I am married to an EEA person, and according to EU law, we can both live work here/work here! Employers send off an ECS Check to see if you are eligible to work in the UK. The UK responds, "nope, we cannot confirm that this person has the right to work in the UK" - This is becuase you have not applied for or been granted the non-compulsory Certificate of Application (or ultimately a Residence Card). And so the employer does not employ you. Also, I'm not sure you could open a bank account without at least a CoA.

Non-compulsory my a$$

[Jellybean105]

From what I understand applying for EEA2 is not compulsory, its just gonna help get a job. So I guess theres nothing to appeal, you are here legally and that it.

Personally I would ask for a review of their decision and supply evidence of accomodation.

This may or may not be helpful to the OP. The UK's position that a Residence Card (EEA2) is not compulsory is like saying Spam is not compulsory. As in, you don't really need Spam, but if you don't have it you simply die, no biggie!

If you are a non-EEA spouse and an employer is interested in hiring you, the employer says, can we see your passport (which doesn't have a residence card in it because it's not compulsory). Employer says, doesn't look like you can work in the UK. You say, but I can work here, as I am married to an EEA person, and according to EU law, we can both live work here/work here! Employers send off an ECS Check to see if you are eligible to work in the UK. The UK responds, "nope, we cannot confirm that this person has the right to work in the UK" - This is becuase you have not applied for or been granted the non-compulsory Certificate of Application (or ultimately a Residence Card). And so the employer does not employ you. Also, I'm not sure you could open a bank account without at least a CoA.

Non-compulsory my a$$

LOL! I totally agree with you jbminger. It would be near impossible to live a normal life without one. Not to forget, never being able to go for a holiday outside the UK?

[rosebead]

Did you submit proof of your UK residence such as bills, tenancy agreement, bank statements, etc? If so, surely those would be good enough without needing to also prove that you actually entered the country (boarding pass, entry stamps, etc)?

[Aimar]

Why go and apply for another EEA-FP? He already is legally residing here regardless of the refusal, what's the point of that? If you did an SS I expect you would understand some of the most basic rule of the regulation.

Hi dalebutt, good to see you. Give me a holler. Thanks

[dalebutt]

Why go and apply for another EEA-FP? He already is legally residing here regardless of the refusal, what's the point of that? If you did an SS I expect you would understand some of the most basic rule of the regulation.

Hi dalebutt, good to see you. Give me a holler. Thanks

Good to see you too Aimar. Haven't seen you in a long while now. My message area on the board isn't working, I am unable to send messages or receive, I am trying to resolve that, I shall message you soon as I have it sorted.