Indefinite Leave to Remain or Right of Abode for newbornbaby

[khev]

Hiya

I have simlar query to iamamonkey
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=18220
but have posted my question here as I did not want to hijeck her initial query.

My wife and I are Malaysians with indefinite leave to remain (ILR) and we recently had a daughter. Although she qualifies as British we have decided to obtain a Malaysian passport for now and let her decide which passport she wishes to hold (Malaysia does not allow dual nationality) when she grows up.

Our dilemma is this. Do we get a Right Of Abode (RoA) visa for her now which costs £135 every 5 years or should we pay £750 to apply for an ILR visa. From what I understand, we do not need necessarily have to reapply for a ILR nor transfer the ILR to the new passport when we have a new passport but would be ok to bring along the old passport where the ILR visa is on when we travel. So it seems to make sense to pay more now i.e the £750 and never have to pay anything else again instead of paying £135 every 5 years. Because by the time she is 30 she would have paid £135x6=£810 (assuming that the rates remain the same and of course that our daughhter still wants to be M'sian then).

But would her rights be any different holding an ILR as opposed to a ROA? Which is 'better'? Your thoughts on this would be appreciated. Thanks.[/url]

[jes2jes]

Hiya

I have simlar query to iamamonkey
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=18220
but have posted my question here as I did not want to hijeck her initial query.

My wife and I are Malaysians with indefinite leave to remain (ILR) and we recently had a daughter. Although she qualifies as British we have decided to obtain a Malaysian passport for now and let her decide which passport she wishes to hold (Malaysia does not allow dual nationality) when she grows up.

Our dilemma is this. Do we get a Right Of Abode (RoA) visa for her now which costs £135 every 5 years or should we pay £750 to apply for an ILR visa. From what I understand, we do not need necessarily have to reapply for a ILR nor transfer the ILR to the new passport when we have a new passport but would be ok to bring along the old passport where the ILR visa is on when we travel. So it seems to make sense to pay more now i.e the £750 and never have to pay anything else again instead of paying £135 every 5 years. Because by the time she is 30 she would have paid £135x6=£810 (assuming that the rates remain the same and of course that our daughhter still wants to be M'sian then).

But would her rights be any different holding an ILR as opposed to a ROA? Which is 'better'? Your thoughts on this would be appreciated. Thanks.[/url]

Your daughter cannot apply for ILR so forget it. She's a British Citizen whether you like it or not matey! You can apply for a Malaysian passport for her if you like and Liam Byrne does not give a ball about that!

You can use your old passport with the ILR with the new without transfering the visa but both passports needs to be presented at the UK point of Entry when returning from overseas.

I will leave the ROA question to others since it is not my cup of tea this raining afternoon!

[khev]

Thanks for your reply jes2jes.

Your daughter cannot apply for ILR so forget it.

Why is that? Could you pls explain. When I rang the Home Office they said that the ROA is the normal way to proceed but if I wanted to apply for ILR I would just have to fill in a different form i.e. Set (F) form.

However if the ILR is truly not an option the dilemma disappears.

[Christophe]

Thanks for your reply jes2jes.

Your daughter cannot apply for ILR so forget it.

Why is that? Could you pls explain. When I rang the Home Office they said that the ROA is the normal way to proceed but if I wanted to apply for ILR I would just have to fill in a different form i.e. Set (F) form.

However if the ILR is truly not an option the dilemma disappears.

Because your daughter was born in the UK to a parent (or in this case, parents) settled in the UK, she is in fact a British citizen under British law. Therefore, she cannot have "indefinite leave to remain" since she doesn't require any sort of leave, indefinite or otherwise, to enter or stay in the UK - she has an absolute right to be in the UK.

In theory, British citizens cannot therefore apply for or be granted ILR. In practice, it does happen sometimes, however.

I am not sure, though, why you are in a quandary about which to apply for. Apart from (possibly) cost, there is absolutely no advantage to ILR over right of abode. The only issue with the right of abode is whether the Malaysian authorities will consider that it amounts to British citizenship and, if they do so consider it, what if anything they would do about it in the case of a child. (It isn't, in fact, the same thing as British citizenship, but anyone born in or after 1983 can only have the right of abode by being a British citizen, so a right of abode certificate in your daughter's passport would indicate that she is a British citizen even though it wouldn't say so.) Others would know more about the attitude of the Malaysian authorities: my suspicion is that it would probably be all right.

The worry with trying to go for ILR is that the application may well be rejected (which wouldn't be a disaster, but possibly a waste or time, effort and money), and that any subsequent application to transfer the leave to a new passport would be refused even if the initial application had not been. Also, if it is granted, it is technically invalid. (And re: the ongoing costs: remember that just because an ILR holder can now enter the UK with the evidence of ILR in an old passport doesn't mean that this will always be the case.)

Whatever you do, make sure that you keep evidence that you, the parents, had ILR at the time of your daughter's birth: it might seem obvious now, but if she were to apply for a British passport when she is an adult, the evidence of your ILR might not be so easy to come by, especially if you are not still living in the UK.

Also, be aware that the people that work in the Passport Office and in British missions overseas may not be aware of the fact that a child born in the UK to an ILR parent is a British citizen. I doubt that this would be a problem in the Right of Abode part of the BIA nationality section in Liverpool, but you never know!

[iamamonkey]

Hiya

I have simlar query to iamamonkey
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=18220
but have posted my question here as I did not want to hijeck her initial query.

[/url]

Khev,

Hello fellow countryman. Just to make it clear. I am a him, not a her!

I suppose I would be in the same situation as you when my wife gets her ILR. I presume, that once any one parent gets ILR, the baby (if born in the UK) would automatically be a British Citizen.

I'll probably be applying for a Malaysian passport for my child (dont know the gender...yet) to allow us to travel. This means that we'll have to apply for a visa for the child to allow the child to come back to the UK with us. We'll probably apply for Right of Abode for the child and let the child decide on its citizenship status when it gets older.

This is all very confusing and I always have cold sweats when I think about visas.

Monkey

[Christophe]

I suppose I would be in the same situation as you when my wife gets her ILR. I presume, that once any one parent gets ILR, the baby (if born in the UK) would automatically be a British Citizen.

Slightly different, in that I think that in your case the child would be entitled to be registered as a British citizen when one parent gets ILR (the difference is because neither parent, in your case, was "settled" in the UK when the child was born). So your decision will be whether or not to register your child as a British citizen. Doing so, however, may well mean that she loses Malaysian citizenship, either immediately or later - I don't know anything about Malaysian nationality law!

[iamamonkey]

I suppose I would be in the same situation as you when my wife gets her ILR. I presume, that once any one parent gets ILR, the baby (if born in the UK) would automatically be a British Citizen.

Slightly different, in that I think that in your case the child would be entitled to be registered as a British citizen when one parent gets ILR (the difference is because neither parent, in your case, was "settled" in the UK when the child was born). So your decision will be whether or not to register your child as a British citizen. Doing so, however, may well mean that she loses Malaysian citizenship, either immediately or later - I don't know anything about Malaysian nationality law!

Christohpe,

Thanks for pointing out the slight difference. Malaysian nationality law does not allow dual nationality.

Can application for British Citizenship be made at any time so long as there is proof that the baby is born in the UK and proof that at some point either parent got ILR?

Monkey

[badmaash]

why dont you just apply for a british citizenship if you are a malaysian citizen (of chinese or indian decent) i.e not with bumiputra status as the uk is much better for you

as we can see things in malaysia are changing and ibeing a bumiputra is what counts

[JAJ]

Can application for British Citizenship be made at any time so long as there is proof that the baby is born in the UK and proof that at some point either parent got ILR?

Any time up to age 18.

However bear in mind that where child is aged 10 or over, any issues with the child's character (teenage problems with the law etc) may constitute a bar to registration.

[iamamonkey]

Can application for British Citizenship be made at any time so long as there is proof that the baby is born in the UK and proof that at some point either parent got ILR?

Any time up to age 18.

However bear in mind that where child is aged 10 or over, any issues with the child's character (teenage problems with the law etc) may constitute a bar to registration.

Thanks. So this means that if either parents get ILR AFTER the child is born, the child has up to 18 years to register as a british citizen?

Sorry. I just wanted to confirm this. Cos I had an argument (well more like difference in opinion) with a friend last night who was of the opinion that the parents must have ILR BEFORE the baby is born for the baby to be entitled to british citizenship.

Monkey

ps. Khev, sorry to hijack your post.

[Christophe]

Thanks. So this means that if either parents get ILR AFTER the child is born, the child has up to 18 years to register as a british citizen?

Sorry. I just wanted to confirm this. Cos I had an argument (well more like difference in opinion) with a friend last night who was of the opinion that the parents must have ILR BEFORE the baby is born for the baby to be entitled to british citizenship.

Monkey

ps. Khev, sorry to hijack your post.

Yes, you're right, but I can see how your friend could have got confused. Your friend is probably thinking of someone in Khev's position: a person with ILR is considered "settled" in the UK, and so a child born in the UK to that person is a British citizen at birth. So, splitting hairs, that child is not "entitled" to British citizenship, that child is a British citizen.

On the other hand, your child, if one of the parents gets ILR, would be entitled to British citizenship, i.e. could become a British citizen if the application for registration is made (before the child is 18, but note the caveat mentioned by JAJ above).

[iamamonkey]

Thanks. So this means that if either parents get ILR AFTER the child is born, the child has up to 18 years to register as a british citizen?

Sorry. I just wanted to confirm this. Cos I had an argument (well more like difference in opinion) with a friend last night who was of the opinion that the parents must have ILR BEFORE the baby is born for the baby to be entitled to british citizenship.

Monkey

ps. Khev, sorry to hijack your post.

Yes, you're right, but I can see how your friend could have got confused. Your friend is probably thinking of someone in Khev's position: a person with ILR is considered "settled" in the UK, and so a child born in the UK to that person is a British citizen at birth. So, splitting hairs, that child is not "entitled" to British citizenship, that child is a British citizen.

On the other hand, your child, if one of the parents gets ILR, would be entitled to British citizenship, i.e. could become a British citizen if the application for registration is made (before the child is 18, but note the caveat mentioned by JAJ above).

Christophe,

Thanks for that. Brilliant. I can laugh at my friend cos I was right.

Caveat by JAJ noted. Im sure my kid'll be fine. Spare the rod, spoil the child, as they say. Discipline begins at home and all that ya-de-da.

Cheers.
Monkey

[Christophe]

Thanks for that. Brilliant. I can laugh at my friend cos I was right.

Always pleased to settle an argument!

[khev]

Thanks for all your replies! It's been very insightful and definitely cleared the confusion. Looks like it'll be the RoA route.

I am not sure, though, why you are in a quandary about which to apply for. Apart from (possibly) cost, there is absolutely no advantage to ILR over right of abode.

Yup Christophe, it was purely due to the cost . We just found it ridiculous to have to pay £135 every 5 years for RoA. I guess that's the cost of staying Malaysian.

The only issue with the right of abode is whether the Malaysian authorities will consider that it amounts to British citizenship

Fortunately they don't.

why dont you just apply for a british citizenship if you are a malaysian citizen (of chinese or indian decent)

Badmaash, we have not thought about the pros and cons thoroughly. The biggest benefit seems to be not having to pay crazy fees every five years but apart from that cannot see any huge advantage compared to the RoA or ILR. Somehow I feel like a traitor if I were to apply for British citizenship. Sigh, all the brainwashing seems to have worked

Whatever you do, make sure that you keep evidence that you, the parents, had ILR at the time of your daughter's birth

That's a good point Christophe.

Hello fellow countryman. Just to make it clear. I am a him, not a her!

Sorry monkey All the best with the baby!

And thanks again everyone!

[badmaash]

ok youre right the costs are a big problem

it never used to be that expensive until mr blair decided to this sly tax and stupid excuse of protecting our borders

we can go to europe and purchase citizenship there and easily enter with no probs as seen in panorama

how much they spend aint gonna work he knows that but he just wants to hurt the public

he aint really british he is american

anyways ill stop there