HSMP SCHEME WILL BE CLOSED IS -THAT TRUE?

[LondonBlonde]

As a point of clarification, the various documents published have referred to tier 1 as comprising the highly skilled, a group, it is suggested, that includes, but is not limited to, scientists and entrepreneurs.

Key elements of the system include:consolidating more than 80 existing work and study routes into five tiers:
tier 1 - highly skilled, e.g. scientists or entrepreneurs;

Then what will be happend to existing HSMP visa holders or how they will be integrated to proposed Tier system who is not scientist or entrepreneurs?

Any idea?

Exactly, it is possible that a large number of HSMP will be forced into tier 3, and this will not be a path to settlement as was HSMP.

Like a work permit, but without an ILR clock. Probably also requirements as seen with current working holiday visa holders. That you plan to leave within a given length of time.

LondonBlonde

[gordon]

As a point of clarification, the various documents published have referred to tier 1 as comprising the highly skilled, a group, it is suggested, that includes, but is not limited to, scientists and entrepreneurs.

Key elements of the system include:consolidating more than 80 existing work and study routes into five tiers:
tier 1 - highly skilled, e.g. scientists or entrepreneurs;

Then what will be happend to existing HSMP visa holders or how they will be integrated to proposed Tier system who is not scientist or entrepreneurs?

Any idea?

Exactly, it is possible that a large number of HSMP will be forced into tier 3, and this will not be a path to settlement as was HSMP.

Like a work permit, but without an ILR clock. Probably also requirements as seen with current working holiday visa holders. That you plan to leave within a given length of time.

LondonBlonde

What evidence is there that 'a large number' of HSMP visa holders are likely to fail to meet the tier 1 criteria *and* the tier 2 criteria, so as then to fall into tier 3 ?

As for that quotation, it is perhaps useful to point out that the term 'e.g.' is not the same as 'i.e.' -- and that's where some the reading comprehension in this thread has gone awry.

AG

[LondonBlonde]

The current shortage list is not looking good for IT, Finance and medical. Maybe there will be a new shortage list? If not, then tier 2 is not looking promising for most HSMP.

HO has stated several times this year that HSMP has been abused. Also that UK graduates are having trouble finding work in IT and medical.

Tier one is likely to be an even easier route to settlement than HSMP. There is even talk of reducing the time to ILR at just two years, and not requiring FLR extensions.

Given that the HO is not happy with HSMP, and the emphasis on EU labour force getting priority, I think it's very likely that HSMP non-specialist medical, IT and Finance sectors will be let down by the new rules.

No one knows for sure, but if November of last year is any gauge, HO will not make things easy for HSMP holders.

LondonBlonde

[SYH]

how has hsmp been abused according to the HO?

[gordon]

The current shortage list is not looking good for IT, Finance and medical. Maybe there will be a new shortage list? If not, then tier 2 is not looking promising for most HSMP.

HO has stated several times this year that HSMP has been abused. Also that UK graduates are having trouble finding work in IT and medical.

Tier one is likely to be an even easier route to settlement than HSMP. There is even talk of reducing the time to ILR at just two years, and not requiring FLR extensions.

Given that the HO is not happy with HSMP, and the emphasis on EU labour force getting priority, I think it's very likely that HSMP non-specialist medical, IT and Finance sectors will be let down by the new rules.

No one knows for sure, but if November of last year is any gauge, HO will not make things easy for HSMP holders.

LondonBlonde

I don't know about that; the Home Office seem very pleased with HSMP, at least after its Nov 06 revision, which at least introduced rather a lot more transparency and flexibility into the framework. And as for the IT, finance, and medical people who are currently on HSMP; they will simply have to make sure that they remain in tier 1, so that their visas are not subject to the resident labour tests, shortage lists, etc., if they were otherwise to move into tier 2.

Oddly, however, the way you represent it, there won't be that many people in HSMP/tier 1 at all, which I find extraordinarily difficult to believe would be the desired outcome from the HO's perspective. Because if highly skilled professionals in the medical and financial fields (this latter being a major engine of growth for the UK economy) don't qualify, then who's left ?

AG

[willnotbackHSMP]

As a point of clarification, the various documents published have referred to tier 1 as comprising the highly skilled, a group, it is suggested, that includes, but is not limited to, scientists and entrepreneurs.

Key elements of the system include:consolidating more than 80 existing work and study routes into five tiers:
tier 1 - highly skilled, e.g. scientists or entrepreneurs;

Then what will be happend to existing HSMP visa holders or how they will be integrated to proposed Tier system who is not scientist or entrepreneurs?

Any idea?

Exactly, it is possible that a large number of HSMP will be forced into tier 3, and this will not be a path to settlement as was HSMP.

Like a work permit, but without an ILR clock. Probably also requirements as seen with current working holiday visa holders. That you plan to leave within a given length of time.

LondonBlonde

What evidence is there that 'a large number' of HSMP visa holders are likely to fail to meet the tier 1 criteria *and* the tier 2 criteria, so as then to fall into tier 3 ?

As for that quotation, it is perhaps useful to point out that the term 'e.g.' is not the same as 'i.e.' -- and that's where some the reading comprehension in this thread has gone awry.

AG

So that, most of existing HSMPians will not be under Tier 1. Then HO will face another Judicial review ?

[LondonBlonde]

Oddly, however, the way you represent it, there won't be that many people in HSMP/tier 1 at all, which I find extraordinarily difficult to believe would be the desired outcome from the HO's perspective. Because if highly skilled professionals in the medical and financial fields (this latter being a major engine of growth for the UK economy) don't qualify, then who's left ?

AG

No one can say for sure what will happen. I am only arguing that HSMP holders should not assume they will still be on a path to settlement after next year.

HO right or wrong believes there are too many medical and IT people competing for jobs in the UK. If you search for speaches by Liam Byrne since summer 06, you will see the language I am talking about.

LondonBlonde

[gordon]

Oddly, however, the way you represent it, there won't be that many people in HSMP/tier 1 at all, which I find extraordinarily difficult to believe would be the desired outcome from the HO's perspective. Because if highly skilled professionals in the medical and financial fields (this latter being a major engine of growth for the UK economy) don't qualify, then who's left ?

AG

No one can say for sure what will happen. I am only arguing that HSMP holders should not assume they will still be on a path to settlement after next year.

HO right or wrong believes there are too many medical and IT people competing for jobs in the UK. If you search for speaches by Liam Byrne since summer 06, you will see the language I am talking about.

LondonBlonde

Well, the HO didn't remove IT from the shortage list five years ago, only to have an influx of the same under HSMP. Both medical staff and IT have been removed from any preferential treatment, so if they want to remain in the UK they'll have to qualify for HSMP and compete like everyone else. There hasn't been any language used (by Byrne or anyone else) to suggest particular exclusions in tier 1. I'm not sure I see what the problem is.
AG

[LondonBlonde]

Oddly, however, the way you represent it, there won't be that many people in HSMP/tier 1 at all, which I find extraordinarily difficult to believe would be the desired outcome from the HO's perspective. Because if highly skilled professionals in the medical and financial fields (this latter being a major engine of growth for the UK economy) don't qualify, then who's left ?

AG

No one can say for sure what will happen. I am only arguing that HSMP holders should not assume they will still be on a path to settlement after next year.

HO right or wrong believes there are too many medical and IT people competing for jobs in the UK. If you search for speaches by Liam Byrne since summer 06, you will see the language I am talking about.

LondonBlonde

Well, the HO didn't remove IT from the shortage list five years ago, only to have an influx of the same under HSMP. Both medical staff and IT have been removed from any preferential treatment, so if they want to remain in the UK they'll have to qualify for HSMP and compete like everyone else. There hasn't been any language used (by Byrne or anyone else) to suggest particular exclusions in tier 1. I'm not sure I see what the problem is.
AG

There hasn't been any language to suggest that HSMP critera will be the same as tier one criterea.

If we agree that the focus of the new tier system is to prioritize EU workers above HSMP, and the HO have suggested there are too many IT and non specialized medical, it's not hard to see that we will not see them appear as a path to tier 1.

LondonBlonde

[willnotbackHSMP]

Only tier-1 will be the path towards settlement & citizenship in new PBS system

http://i14.tinypic.com/4v3twfk.jpg ( source : www.hsmpforum.com)

[gordon]

There hasn't been any language to suggest that HSMP critera will be the same as tier one criterea.

If we agree that the focus of the new tier system is to prioritize EU workers above HSMP, and the HO have suggested there are too many IT and non specialized medical, it's not hard to see that we will not see them appear as a path to tier 1.

LondonBlonde

I don't think that I can agree with your point about prioritising EU workers over HSMP workers; EU workers are to be prioritised in tiers 2 and 3, and there are provisions to ensure that prioritisation. HSMP falls outside this prioritisation scheme - the Government has suggested that they want highly skilled migrants, and has made no mention of mitigating the competition between highly skilled migrants from outside the EU and those from inside.

I think I see your general point, but I'm not sure about its foundations. The new tier system is meant to streamline immigration and demonstrate compliance with obligations under EU treaties; this latter I see in tiers 2 and 3, but not in tier 1. The policy statements have indicated that HSMP will be replaced by tier 1, but I agree that there is nothing that guarantees that the criteria will remain the same; that said, however, in principle the concept of HSMP will be imported into tier 1, including the notion of attracting a class of migrants without 'identifying specific skills required by employers, which is provided for in Tier 2 of the new system' (PBS, p22). Your point about too many IT and non-specialised medics, given the lack of preferential provisions for them, suggests that they won't figure prominently in tier 2 or tier 3. What I do not see, in your argument, is how they cease to be eligible to remain in tier 1; while there are no preferential arrangements for them, there are also no specific exclusions to their detriment either.

AG

[LondonBlonde]

The policy statements have indicated that HSMP will be replaced by tier 1

Gordon, this is the whole problem. I think many HSMP beleive this to be true, however if you read closely - particularly the speeches by Byrne on his superiors, you will get a different picture.

Again, no one knows for sure so we could go on forever. I'm only asking that you all think conservatively and prepare for a Tier one that will be reserved for rocket sceintist types and not the average IT, Finanacial or medical migrant.

Your arguements about this change not making much economic sense are sound and I am with you. However you leave out the political problems HO officials have had with HSMP recently. I believe they would not be too troubled to see most HSMP fall into non-settlement tiers next year.

As always Gordon, I appreciate your opinion. It's clear that we cannot rule out any possiblility right now. So maybe best not to count on best or worse case before the announcements next year.

LondonBlonde

[gordon]

The policy statements have indicated that HSMP will be replaced by tier 1

Gordon, this is the whole problem. I think many HSMP beleive this to be true, however if you read closely - particularly the speeches by Byrne on his superiors, you will get a different picture.

Again, no one knows for sure so we could go on forever. I'm only asking that you all think conservatively and prepare for a Tier one that will be reserved for rocket sceintist types and not the average IT, Finanacial or medical migrant.

Your arguements about this change not making much economic sense are sound and I am with you. However you leave out the political problems HO officials have had with HSMP recently. I believe they would not be too troubled to see most HSMP fall into non-settlement tiers next year.

As always Gordon, I appreciate your opinion. It's clear that we cannot rule out any possiblility right now. So maybe best not to plan for the best or worse case before it happens.

LondonBlonde

A close reading of the speeches, position papers, and policy statements, suggests that the HSMP scheme will constitute tier 1. That's not the same as saying that all current HSMP visaholders will necessarily fall into tier 1, since some may be disqualified -- and presumably that's Byrne's point.

But I do hope that people have planned accordingly for possible changes; some people who came here with barely enough points on the current scheme (post-Nov 06), let alone on the earlier scheme (pre-Nov 06), may get a further shock in 2008 if the points threshold is adjusted upward, or if the point values for attributes change.

AG

[cagrawal]

Only tier-1 will be the path towards settlement & citizenship in new PBS system

http://i14.tinypic.com/4v3twfk.jpg ( source : www.hsmpforum.com)

Hi,

I VERY SERIOUSLY doubt this information. I have gone through a number of dicument on Home Office site and could not find anythign that says About Tier 2 not being able to get ILR.

Regards,
Chandan

[gordon]

Only tier-1 will be the path towards settlement & citizenship in new PBS system

http://i14.tinypic.com/4v3twfk.jpg ( source : www.hsmpforum.com)

Hi,

I VERY SERIOUSLY doubt this information. I have gone through a number of dicument on Home Office site and could not find anythign that says About Tier 2 not being able to get ILR.

Regards,
Chandan

As well you should doubt it. While that image was taken from the Migration Impacts Forum presentation that Liam Byrne gave ca. June 2007, it's perhaps useful to point out a few things: (a) it was clearly a bad powerpoint job, (b) all of the proposals and policy documents thus far have indicated that WP-holders would remain on a path to settlement, and (c) there are no documents or verbal statements from the HO that spell out any intent to remove that path to settlement from what is to become tier 2. AG

[cagrawal]

Thanks AG.

[LondonBlonde]

Only tier-1 will be the path towards settlement & citizenship in new PBS system

http://i14.tinypic.com/4v3twfk.jpg ( source : www.hsmpforum.com)

Hi,

I VERY SERIOUSLY doubt this information. I have gone through a number of dicument on Home Office site and could not find anythign that says About Tier 2 not being able to get ILR.

Regards,
Chandan

Yes, tier two looks to be another path to settlement. However, you will read that qalification is said to involve shortage lists.

If this is true, then tier two may not be a sure route to settlement as shortage lists can change over time. Also, if current lists are used then most HSMP would not qualify.

No one can say for sure right now. Would be really good if acceptance to tier two could gaurantee settlement as HSMP does.

LondonBlonde

[cagrawal]

looking at the bright side (you really have to look for that silver lining), the pdf on the new point based system also says that ILR can be given to Tier 1 candidates after 2 yrs itself.
Pls note that this is just a chance:

88. Tier 1 is a route to settlement and
people in this route will be allowed to bring
dependants to the UK.The proposal is that the
initial grant of leave will be for 2 years. After
this period, the points will be re-assessed and
the person will have to demonstrate high
earnings or a significantly skilled job in order to
have their leave extended.We are considering
the possibility of allowing the most successful
to move directly to settlement after 2 years.

[roy_rajat]

looking at the bright side (you really have to look for that silver lining), the pdf on the new point based system also says that ILR can be given to Tier 1 candidates after 2 yrs itself.
Pls note that this is just a chance:

88. Tier 1 is a route to settlement and
people in this route will be allowed to bring
dependants to the UK.The proposal is that the
initial grant of leave will be for 2 years. After
this period, the points will be re-assessed and
the person will have to demonstrate high
earnings or a significantly skilled job in order to
have their leave extended.We are considering
the possibility of allowing the most successful
to move directly to settlement after 2 years.

But what happens to those who are already on HSMP and are in full-time employment and have sufficient LTR to qualify for ILR in next couple of years?

[LondonBlonde]

looking at the bright side (you really have to look for that silver lining), the pdf on the new point based system also says that ILR can be given to Tier 1 candidates after 2 yrs itself.
Pls note that this is just a chance:

88. Tier 1 is a route to settlement and
people in this route will be allowed to bring
dependants to the UK.The proposal is that the
initial grant of leave will be for 2 years. After
this period, the points will be re-assessed and
the person will have to demonstrate high
earnings or a significantly skilled job in order to
have their leave extended.We are considering
the possibility of allowing the most successful
to move directly to settlement after 2 years.

But what happens to those who are already on HSMP and are in full-time employment and have sufficient LTR to qualify for ILR in next couple of years?

I believe that anyone who already has LTR to make five years under HSMP will be fine. HO has been saying all year that changes will not effect existing leave under HSMP.

If this is you then I would only recommend that you not compromise your ILR clock in any way. Leaving the country for more than three months at a time for example might cause big problems later if you are foced to re-apply for leave under the new PBS.

LondonBlonde

[roy_rajat]

looking at I believe that anyone who already has LTR to make five years under HSMP will be fine. HO has been saying all year that changes will not effect existing leave under HSMP.

If this is you then I would only recommend that you not compromise your ILR clock in any way. Leaving the country for more than three months at a time for example might cause big problems later if you are foced to apply for leave under the new PBS.

LondonBlonde

I am sceptical about promises by the home office. Anyway, i have just switched to HSMP from WP and i would be completeing ILR period Feb 2009 so still one complete year and few months to go. I wont be surprised if at the time of application i am asked to meet the requirement of Tier I before i can be eligible for ILR. or may be they would no longer allow me to comine my LTR as a WP holder.

[LondonBlonde]

I am sceptical about promises by the home office. Anyway, i have just switched to HSMP from WP and i would be completeing ILR period Feb 2009 so still one complete year and few months to go. I wont be surprised if at the time of application i am asked to meet the requirement of Tier I before i can be eligible for ILR. or may be they would no longer allow me to comine my LTR as a WP holder.

roy_rajat, you will be fine. ILR criterea would have to change significantly for your settlement to be threatened. This would be outside the scope of the proposed changes.

I am here under HSMP for five years next summer. I'm not really worried, so you shouldn't be either. Still, I plan to apply for ILR as soon as I possibly can. Like you say, you never know exactly what will happen and when.

LondonBlonde

[LondonBlonde]

Good news, new command papers suggest that tier one will be a very close match to current HSMP criterea.

Should have known better than to disagree with Gordon. So far as I can tell, criterea will be a little more difficult around age points, but the same otherwise.

LondonBlonde

[magsi23]

As far as i know after Tier system is introduced following will no longer be issued.

* Work Permit (company sponored)
* HSMP
* Ancestory visa
(There might be few more i am not sure)

my question is what about people who are already on WP/HSMP? surely they wont be forcecd to change to tier system or will they be?

what happends to 10/14 yr ILR rule?

[gordon]

LondonBlonde - new command papers on immigration ? How exciting ! Where !?!??! (My enthusiasm for government papers on this topic is slightly alarming, actually).

And magsi23 - what's the source/citation indicating that work permits and HSMP won't be issued going forward ? Earlier documents had suggested that work permits would be Tier 2 and HSMP Tier 1, and current visaholders in those categories would be categorised in the new tiers respectively.

AG

As far as i know after Tier system is introduced following will no longer be issued.

* Work Permit (company sponored)
* HSMP
* Ancestory visa
(There might be few more i am not sure)

my question is what about people who are already on WP/HSMP? surely they wont be forcecd to change to tier system or will they be?

what happends to 10/14 yr ILR rule?