Urgent help please... spouse visa refused

[yasirali171]

Dear All,
Last Week my wife appeal has been dismissed by FtT, i have already wasted 2 years waiting for the hearing. And the Judge didnt even let me speak and say what i wanted to. However i cant decide should i go for UtT or submit a new application. I am under the fear, if i submit fresh application and they refuse on the same grounds i.e. marriage is not subsisting what will i do then i have to go to appeal again, on the other hand if i apply for UtT and some how the application is approved for hearing and then after another year wait it is dismissed what will i do then. On the day of my hearing i have provided them with all relevant doc. i.e. chat history for whole year, travel tickets, more pictures and the visits that i have made while my appeal was under process. however they have not considered anything they have dismissed the appeal on the basis of why there are no proof that you had met before your marriage i explained them i didn't it was completely organized by our parents but they are not willing to accept this. Second they have said why there was no chat between us for the first two months after the marriage whereas i explained i extracted what ever i could have ( i know i was wrong here, but my mistake was i left it very late and the day i started extracting chat it didnt had that history). one of the other reason was why my wife still has her parents address on her bank account which i explained as she hold the account with that bank before marriage and she lives at both the places her parents and mine but the answer to them wasnt satisfactory.

Please advise me what should i do from here, in a real mess:-(

Regards,

Yasir

[Obie]

If the judge refused you to speak or take into account your evidence, then that amount to an error of law.

You are entitled to be your wife's representative and speak on her behalf. Failure to allow you to speak, amounts to unfairness and a material error of law , as your wife was denied a fair hearing.


If due to cultural or religious reasons, you were unable to see your wife, you must state this, a failure to allow you to do so, or consider those factors may amount to an error of law.

[mooty]

Dear All,
Last Week my wife appeal has been dismissed by FtT, i have already wasted 2 years waiting for the hearing. And the Judge didnt even let me speak and say what i wanted to. However i cant decide should i go for UtT or submit a new application. I am under the fear, if i submit fresh application and they refuse on the same grounds i.e. marriage is not subsisting what will i do then i have to go to appeal again, on the other hand if i apply for UtT and some how the application is approved for hearing and then after another year wait it is dismissed what will i do then. On the day of my hearing i have provided them with all relevant doc. i.e. chat history for whole year, travel tickets, more pictures and the visits that i have made while my appeal was under process. however they have not considered anything they have dismissed the appeal on the basis of why there are no proof that you had met before your marriage i explained them i didn't it was completely organized by our parents but they are not willing to accept this. Second they have said why there was no chat between us for the first two months after the marriage whereas i explained i extracted what ever i could have ( i know i was wrong here, but my mistake was i left it very late and the day i started extracting chat it didnt had that history). one of the other reason was why my wife still has her parents address on her bank account which i explained as she hold the account with that bank before marriage and she lives at both the places her parents and mine but the answer to them wasnt satisfactory.

Please advise me what should i do from here, in a real mess:-(

Regards,

Yasir

It's terrible to hear your tale Yasir. I guess that you need to give more detail in this forum for others to be able to chip in regarding the issue. I am more or less in a same boat. Got married (arranged) this year in February and going to find out about the outcome next week. But as per the guideline they have indicated that they will take into consideration certain cultural practices around the world when considering the genuineness of subsisting relationship i.e. arrange marriage. I have myself provided absolutely no communication proof prior to the marriage as we didn't know each other prior to the marriage. Did you apply soon after the marriage or have you waited few months/years? Are there any peculiar reasons for them to suspect on your case? I assuming that you have applied from the South East Asia where the arrange marriage are common practice. Refusing on the basis of arrange marriage is simply unjust and should be legally challenged at the Highest available legal institution! All the best though. In my opinion you should challenge the decision further rather than reapplying and take it to European Legal institution if you have to. All the best

[alil2014]

@yasir

From your post it seems that you and your wife were living together in the UK? As you have mentioned her bank statements have her parents address. So was the application made within the UK? Please provide more information so that we can help.

[yasirali171]

@yasir
.

Dear All!
As my husband posted that my spouse visa request has been dismissed by FtT. Some friends asked for more details regarding this. So I am going to post some more details as follow:
* I applied for spouse visa from Pakistan after eight months of our marriage.
* our marriage is totally arranged marriage and the decision was taken by our parents.
* we are Muslims and also Pakistanis and in our religion and culture the bride and groom do not meet before nikkah. So there is no proof of meeting before marriage.
* we provided our nikkah nama with translation, certificate of marriage issued by NADRA, some photographs of our marriage, the new id card having the name of my husband and his parents home address in Pakistan.
* moreover we also attached pay slips of my husband, his bank statement, his copy of visa and passport, letter from employer company and rent agreement.
* one mistake which we done was that we forgot to attach the copy of complete passport of my husband which showed that he visited Pakistan during those dates. That is the main reason of their refusal.
* then we appealed in FtT and this time we provided complete copy of his passport, photographs of our marriage and also honeymoon. Photographs with his family members- his parents, sisters and nephews and niece.
* also we provided our wedding invitation card, receipts of things and hotel where we stayed when Yasir visited Pakistan during our appeal.
* bank statement of my bank account which opened with my changed name and home address.
* this time Yasir also attached bank receipts of those transactions which he made in my old account having the address of my parents home.
* moreover Yasir also provided chat history of viber and Skype from Feb, 2013 to till date.
* but this time the objections are why the chat history is not completed as it should be from April,2013 to onward. Also they objected my home address.
* as you all know, the history of chat retains maximum for one year, that's why we are unable to provide chat history from April,2013. And I married with Yasir by the consent of my parents, so there is no need to change my bank account address as my parents and inlaws live in same city and this address is also written in our nikkah nama.

[yasirali171]

@yasir
.

Dear All!
As my husband posted that my spouse visa request has been dismissed by FtT. Some friends asked for more details regarding this. So I am going to post some more details as follow:
* I applied for spouse visa from Pakistan after eight months of our marriage.
* our marriage is totally arranged marriage and the decision was taken by our parents.
* we are Muslims and also Pakistanis and in our religion and culture the bride and groom do not meet before nikkah. So there is no proof of meeting before marriage.
* we provided our nikkah nama with translation, certificate of marriage issued by NADRA, some photographs of our marriage, the new id card having the name of my husband and his parents home address in Pakistan.
* moreover we also attached pay slips of my husband, his bank statement, his copy of visa and passport, letter from employer company and rent agreement.
* one mistake which we done was that we forgot to attach the copy of complete passport of my husband which showed that he visited Pakistan during those dates. That is the main reason of their refusal.
* then we appealed in FtT and this time we provided complete copy of his passport, photographs of our marriage and also honeymoon. Photographs with his family members- his parents, sisters and nephews and niece.
* also we provided our wedding invitation card, receipts of things and hotel where we stayed when Yasir visited Pakistan during our appeal.
* bank statement of my bank account which opened with my changed name and home address.
* this time Yasir also attached bank receipts of those transactions which he made in my old account having the address of my parents home.
* moreover Yasir also provided chat history of viber and Skype from Feb, 2013 to till date.
* but this time the objections are why the chat history is not completed as it should be from April,2013 to onward. Also they objected my home address.
* as you all know, the history of chat retains maximum for one year, that's why we are unable to provide chat history from April,2013. And I married with Yasir by the consent of my parents, so there is no need to change my bank account address as my parents and inlaws live in same city and this address is also written in our nikkah nama.

[HXM872]

@yasir
.

Dear All!
As my husband posted that my spouse visa request has been dismissed by FtT. Some friends asked for more details regarding this. So I am going to post some more details as follow:
* I applied for spouse visa from Pakistan after eight months of our marriage.
* our marriage is totally arranged marriage and the decision was taken by our parents.
* we are Muslims and also Pakistanis and in our religion and culture the bride and groom do not meet before nikkah. So there is no proof of meeting before marriage.
* we provided our nikkah nama with translation, certificate of marriage issued by NADRA, some photographs of our marriage, the new id card having the name of my husband and his parents home address in Pakistan.
* moreover we also attached pay slips of my husband, his bank statement, his copy of visa and passport, letter from employer company and rent agreement.
* one mistake which we done was that we forgot to attach the copy of complete passport of my husband which showed that he visited Pakistan during those dates. That is the main reason of their refusal.
* then we appealed in FtT and this time we provided complete copy of his passport, photographs of our marriage and also honeymoon. Photographs with his family members- his parents, sisters and nephews and niece.
* also we provided our wedding invitation card, receipts of things and hotel where we stayed when Yasir visited Pakistan during our appeal.
* bank statement of my bank account which opened with my changed name and home address.
* this time Yasir also attached bank receipts of those transactions which he made in my old account having the address of my parents home.
* moreover Yasir also provided chat history of viber and Skype from Feb, 2013 to till date.
* but this time the objections are why the chat history is not completed as it should be from April,2013 to onward. Also they objected my home address.
* as you all know, the history of chat retains maximum for one year, that's why we are unable to provide chat history from April,2013. And I married with Yasir by the consent of my parents, so there is no need to change my bank account address as my parents and inlaws live in same city and this address is also written in our nikkah nama.

Hi yasir,
Thanks for the detail. May Allah give you patience and hopefully you will get the visa soon. I had a query if you could please help me with your experience so far. I recently got married in Pakistan. I live in Uk and my wife is living in Pakistan at the moment. On my nikkah nama, nikah khawan wanted a pakistani address so he wrote my relatives pakistani address. Now recently, my wife got her NIC card changed to husbands name and on her NIC card permanent address has been stated to be my relatives address which was on my nikkah nama. In addition to that, her NIC card states the temporary address to be her grandmother's address rather than the actual address where she lives with her parents which was stated on the NIkkah nama as well.

I am pretty confused with the addresses and worried that it may create a problem. I was wondering may be if you could advice me from your experience ?

[yasirali171]

@yasir

Hi yasir,
Thanks for the detail. May Allah give you patience and hopefully you will get the visa soon. I had a query if you could please help me with your experience so far. I recently got married in Pakistan. I live in Uk and my wife is living in Pakistan at the moment. On my nikkah nama, nikah khawan wanted a pakistani address so he wrote my relatives pakistani address. Now recently, my wife got her NIC card changed to husbands name and on her NIC card permanent address has been stated to be my relatives address which was on my nikkah nama. In addition to that, her NIC card states the temporary address to be her grandmother's address rather than the actual address where she lives with her parents which was stated on the NIkkah nama as well.

I am pretty confused with the addresses and worried that it may create a problem. I was wondering may be if you could advice me from your experience ?

HXM,

Address plays a vital role in this. 1 of the question that judge asked me also was why my wife still has her mother address on her one of her old account where my lawyer tried to explain it to Stupid |f*** that she stays at both the places i.e. her in law's and her parents, But he wasn't having that. Since i also had my old address mentioned on my NIC transaltion and my wife NIC Translation they also questioned that, where again my lawyer explained that property has been rented out and they are staying at new built house. Basically i had no luck with me, what i would say is to keep everything very precise if you give them any room they will make a big issue out of it. and then it takes more then a year even to get a hearing date or you wasting your money in drain.

[alil2014]

Hi Yasirali- just to confirm are you and your wife actually in the UK? As you keep mentioning she was staying at the both her parents and in-laws? Sorry if I missed something.

[yasirali171]

.

Dear Ali, no we are not together in UK. she is in pak while i am in UK whereas when i mention inlaws what i mean she spent most of the time staying with my parents backhome i.e. in pak or her parents again in Pak. Guys please suggest me how should i take this forwards the only thing i am trying to save here is time and ofcourse money. So should i go for UtT or new visit application or new dependent application? Really soo confused at the moment because can see my self entering in the same mess.

Regards,
Yasir

[yasirali171]

Dear Obie, Please advise how long it takes for the appeal to go through FtT and then to be heard by UtT. In other words process duration if the appeal is dismissed by FtT and then to be submitted to UtT. Please advise at the earliest possible as we have to make decision now for how we are going to get on with the refusal.

Regards,

Yasir

[Obie]

Have you filed in an appeal?

Has a permission to appeal been made, and if so is it at the First Tier Tribunal state or the Upper Tribunal Stage.

In my experience, the time for hearing from grant of permission is max 3 months.

If an expedition request is made and approved, it is usually much lesser.

[secret.simon]

My tuppenny worth, but I believe reading somewhere (and confirming it with the Immigration Rules, Part 8, page 8 onwards) that even in an arranged marriage, the couple need to provide evidence of having met at least once before marriage. I believe that the rule was brought in to combat both sham and forced marriages, especially in countries like Pakistan, where some British girls of Pakistani heritage visited for a family function and found themselves being married to a stranger.

I empathise with the OP. While I am neither a Muslim nor from Pakistan, I come from a similar culture (India) and currently having an arranged courtship with a girl in India. However, being already aware of this rule, we did a joint tour of the UK and Europe (she was suitably chaperoned), where we had photos taken together and plane and train tickets to prove that we had indeed met.

Refusing on the basis of arrange marriage is simply unjust and should be legally challenged at the Highest available legal institution!

I think it would be foolish to challenge the rules derived from the culture of the country that you wish to settle in. Given the fact that the intent of the couple would be to settle in the UK, one must attempt to adapt oneself to the UK's culture, while adhering to one's own culture.

[Obie]

Well Secret Simon, Pakistan and India are the same culturally. I think it is safe to refer to it as South East Asian Culture.

The rule does not say a wife and husband should met before marriage.

It says the husband and partner must have met. You could meet after marriage, as there are no need to be chaperone after marriage.

What the rule want is to ensure that the partner and the applicant have met and they are sure.

No need for a guy or a woman to travel half way across the world without having never met this person.

They will be like strangers.


What happened in this OP's case, is something that member of the legal fraternity can reasonably describe, as "Procedural impropriety " and a Wholesome breakdown of fair procedure".

The issue is not able the meeting together, but rather, the conduct of the whole proceedings.

[yasirali171]

Dear Obie,
What you saying does make sense, ofcourse i could have lied to them and then it would have been fine, but i am paying for being honest. However no i have not applied to FtT requesting to appeal to UtT and the reason behind that i really not sure what should i do. Shall i do fresh application or shall we go to UtT. We both are so frustrated it is so time consuming, my wife is getting so upset with me thinking that i am causing the delay "well that how women thinks". Anyway if it not more than 3 month that is still reasonable unlike FtT which took more than 1 year for hearing. As i have mentioned in my previous submitting that i have shown them everything.
i.e. All Pic ( i have submitted the CD for videos and more pic but Judge refused it saying that they do not have required Spam)
Letter from my parents that we are married and she would like to join me
Letter from myself and from my wife that we desperate to be together.
Email Exchange
Gift Receipts that i have sent to her on her Bday and other occasions
Receipts of money that i have been sending to her ( Homes office lawyer in the hearing questioned why she her old account at her previous address i explained because she stay at both places i.e. my home and her parents but the judge and HO Lawyer was not satisfied with my answer)
Wedding Card
Travel Itenaries along with passport stamped pages.
During the application to FtT i made a visit to pakistan i have also submitted the pic from the recent visit, receipts of shopping we did together present i bought her on our anniversary.

Please advise what else i can do. How shall i approach UtT, this is causing so much disturbance in our life i am even loosing sleep. I am trying to prove something which is real which exists and can not find enough reason to do so.

Looking forward to hear from you.

[Obie]

Yes, my advice remains the same.

You wife need to show some patience. I know women tend to be the more fragile, emotional and weaker party in a relationship. You will have to constantly reassure her that it will be well.

I will not advise you to live the FTT decision unchallenged. It is marred by procedural impropriety, without going into the merit of this case. This need to be robustly challenged and subdued.

If you apply and they refuse then fine, but it will be utterly crazy to withdraw your appeal.

You could make a new application if you so wish. You are not required to withdraw your appeal in order to be able to make a a new application.

[yasirali171]

Simon,
I can understand where you coming from, however this is for fact that how we got married. With our mutual consent and ofcourse we are proud of this. We are not the only one there are at least few hunderds other who adapt similar traditional marriages, it is only ones belief. However the question is how i can get out of this? Otherwise they have to change the Law here, even if law says we should have met for once then people will not be recording that meeting they will very hesitant, i really doubt people will be doing selfies on this occasion. So if i have said it to them yes i have met her once before they would have asked me:
what proof do you have?
Have you taken any pic?
How did you travel? How many miles? Is the Vehical on your name? if it we need to see Log Book.
Did you went with your parents we need to see proof they are your real parents?

Simmon this is there law.if you abide you get caught and if you lie you slip through apologies if this offend anyone in any way but i am really heart broken at the moment. I have waited whole year and my case got chucked out of the court room within 20 min.

Regards,

Yasir

[yasirali171]

.

Obie,

Thank you so much for you the time you have giving in writing you replies. I agree with you, what i will do now i will appeal to UtT and at the same time i will submit a fresh application. This my wife was asking me other day can i make a fresh application while my application is in process for hearing and i thought we couldn't. Thank you so much for clarifying that i will make a fresh application at once at least this will give her more hope as well that i am trying from all possible ends.

Obie just a question of curiosity how come you are well equipped with all this lawyer, is that you by trade or have a lot of unfortunate experience like me.

Really appreciate your support and response.

Regards,
Yasir

[Obie]

Well, the cost is about £900 for an application , and i believe if there are no new evidence, it does not make sense focusing on a new application, as that could be used towards your appeal. The ECO will have the decision of the judge at the back of his mind, and could be ruthless and simply use it to delay.

If you have disposable cash, which will not cause huge hardship or distress if you lose then you can apply.

Yes this is my field of work, and i feel the pain of people like you, in the middle of these overly daunting immigration rules.

Make sure the grounds are well drafted and the conduct of the judge is properly detailed.

[yasirali171]

Dear All,


Thank you so much for your responses and efforts, i recieved letter from FtT yesterday and they have granted the appeal. Once again i really appreciate what you guys have done for me.

Special Thanks to Obie.

Regards,

Yasir

[Obie]

Good.

Now it is preparation for the full appeal.

Good luck.