.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Does anybody think it is easier to apply for this kind of application in Belgium than in any other EEA member countries just because The EU Court for the Chen's ruling is in Brussels?

Decisions of the ECJ have Europe wide impact. Does not mater which member state you are in. The Chen case itself was in the UK, and the UK courts referred the matter to the ECJ. Beglium, Ireland, UK, Italy, Romainia - Chen applies in each.

[dehualiu]

EEA family member

[14121974]

Can anybody tell some examples for proving self-sufficent resource for illegal immigrant ?

[zsxue]

Deleted

[sakura]

My daughter is also Irish.When I pass the border between Switzerland and france,the French immigration officer caught me and asked to check our passports.(Of course there was no problem with my daughter) WE handed our blank passport(I mean we don't have any visa in it ).when they told us we don't have visa,I told them we came to France in order to apply for the residence on that basis ,they released us ( I think they have to,because the lawyer told us that nobody can stop us from going to france as the parents of an EEA minor citizen .

So what has happened since then? Did you and partner apply for, and were granted, residency?

[zsxue]

Deleted

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I still don't know if I am illegal immigrant

You are not "illegal". You are a family member of an EU citizen and as such you have right to move freely with your EU citizen family member.

Want to go to Ireland for a weekend visit? You can apply for a visa and it will be granted (eventually).

[zsxue]

Deleted

[Prawo]

I really want to go back to Ireland.I have been to Irish embassy once.They told me they can't issue a visa to a person with no leagal immigration status in France even I have a daughter with Irish nationality.Hope you can give me advice about it.

In principle this is correct, as all this is regulated in Irish national law (which I do not know, consult an Irish immigration lawyer).

However, you are perfectly legal in France, even if you did not report to the authorities. For the first 3 months there even is no income requirement. You should be allowed to work after reporting however, and thus obtain the necessary resources.

The Irish embassy should know about you legal status even this moment, that that could not be a valid reason for visa refusal. But to appeal this in Ireland, you will need legal counsel over there.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I really want to go back to Ireland.I have been to Irish embassy once.They told me they can't issue a visa to a person with no leagal immigration status in France even I have a daughter with Irish nationality.Hope you can give me advice about it.

You have a couple of options.

You should try contacting Citizens Signpost at http://ec.europa.eu/citizensrights/ and then Solvit at http://eumovement.wordpress.com/help-eu-solvit/ for their assistance. They should be able to bring the attention of the Irish embassy to the rules.

You can also consider legally entering Ireland without a visa on the basis of the requirement (from Directive 2004/38/EC) that they must let you enter if you have proof of your relationship with the EU citizen family member with whom you are travelling. You should ALWAYS travel with the birth certificate of the child.

Or you can find another EU country that will or should issue you a visa. Go there. And then from there apply for a visa to Ireland. Try the UK for example.

[Prawo]

Don't you overlook the fact that EU rules in principle do not apply to the entry of a family member of an Irish child in Ireland?
This is only different if the Irish child stayed more than 3 month in another EU member state and afterwards returns to Ireland.

In the case you advise in, probably only Irish national law (which I do not know) will apply.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Don't you overlook the fact that EU rules in principle do not apply to the entry of a family member of an Irish child in Ireland?
This is only different if the Irish child stayed more than 3 month in another EU member state and afterwards returns to Ireland.

Good point, but the child (and parent) have been resident in other EEA countries for a while (Switzerland and now France and maybe other countries). In the unlikely case that they do not have three months, they will soon.

Do you have of a reference to the 3 month rule?

[Prawo]

There are no European court decisions on the 3 months rule.
I only know of decisions of the Dutch courts.

Though I do not agree with the 3 months rule (already more than 30 years), I am not the one that decides. In the interest of clients, that depend on decisions of people that are not very eager to apply EU rules correctly, I suggest them to stick at least to this rule. In the past I was even more careful and I suggested one year of stay in another member state. Now between three and six month will do.

However, the original question may lead to the conclusion that proof of the legal stay in France is not yet available. This is something she has to work on before considering returning to Ireland using EU law.

There is always national Irish law, for which I suggest she consults a specialist in Ireland. Maybe the possibilities for the parent of an Irish child are better. See the case above of the lady that plans to stay in Sweden. Apparently she had a perfectly legal stay in Ireland because of the child. Only she did not like the country.

[meihuamgchen]

post

[sakura]

Does anyone know if/whether the ruling allows both parents, or just one? I thought that the original ruling;
1. only allowed one parent to move with the EEA national child
2. meant the parent had to have adequate medical (?) insurance/finances
3. did not give any indication that the parent had, or would have, the right to seek employment

Of course some countries might be more flexible, others not - does anyone know where to access this, or if there have been any applications other than Chen? What is the current situation with Chen (i.e. given the right to work?) or the UK's policies on the employment part (since that could severely limit any potential applicants from applying if they cannot work)?

Likewise, does anyone know exactly how many families this ruling would help/affect? It seems loads of people are coming out from nowhere and telling their stories!

This issue must be one of the most interesting rulings I've come across in a long time (so I'm v. interested to know more).

[Prawo]

Does anyone know if/whether the ruling allows both parents, or just one?

There are no decisions on EU level.
I know of no national decisions in any member state.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Just try.
Anyway both parents in my opinion are entitled for a free Schengen visa for at least the first 3 month (in this period there is in my opinion no insurance requirement).

I thought that the original ruling;
1. only allowed one parent to move with the EEA national child

residence was only asked for one parent. Nothing has been decided on the second one. Besides, he could have been a UK citizen, not taking care of the child.

2. meant the parent had to have adequate medical (?) insurance/finances

This has always been a general condition in all EU directives.

3. did not give any indication that the parent had, or would have, the right to seek employment

The Belgian case I know of allowed the parent immediately to work.
This is in my opinion in accordance with the directive.

Of course some countries might be more flexible, others not -

The directive gives a minimum standard. Member states are allowed to be more liberal.

[sakura]

I guess not that many people would apply to enter the UK using the Chen case because;

You should remember that any non-EEA relatives who are granted leave to enter or remain on the basis of their relationship to an EEA child will not have access to the UK labour market (they are granted leave to remain with no access to employment or public funds.) However, if they have leave granted in their own right (e.g. a work permit) they would then obviously be able to work. However, it is unlikely that they would then apply under EC law anyway. If there is sufficient evidence to suggest that the child's non-EEA relatives would need to work in the UK in order to support the child, the application for leave should be refused.


21.3.5 Applications for leave to enter the UK from non-EEA relatives of EEA minor children
The requirements to be met by a person seeking leave to enter as the primary carer or relative of a self sufficient child are set out in Paragraph 257C of the Immigration Rules.

To qualify, the applicant must fulfil the following requirements. They must:

be the primary carer, parent or sibling of an EEA national who is under the age of 18 and who has a right of residence in the United Kingdom under the 2006 EEA Regulations as a self sufficient person;
be living with the EEA national or seeking entry to the United Kingdom in order to live with the EEA national;
be able to and will be maintained and accommodated without taking employment or having recourse to public funds;
hold a valid entry clearance if seeking leave to enter;
...
There may be instances when an EEA national child is in the UK or seeking to come to the UK as a self-sufficient person (see above). If a child has a right of residence on this basis and the child’s primary carer or other close relatives are applying for leave to enter, you should refer to the Home Office [comment – ECOs will have to refer these, as they cannot issue leave outside the Rules]. This should be done if they do not qualify under an existing provision of the Immigration Rules.

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/servlet/Front ... 8489185556

Which is why I'd like to know what's happening to the Chen family now! And why I thought some other EEA countries would not allow families to work...

Anyone know which other EEA countries also apply a more restrictive reading of the ruling?

[Prawo]

Try to contact her legal representatives R. de Mello and A. Berry, barristers, assisted by M. Barry, solicitor in her case C-200/05.

In my opinion the UK is not correct in its implementation of the Chen-decision. Read article 23 of directive 2004/38/EC.
I think the European Commission will agree with me, just ask them http://ec.europa.eu/citizensrights/fron ... dex_en.htm

Article 23
Related rights

Irrespective of nationality, the family members of a Union citizen who have the right of residence or the right of permanent residence in a Member State shall be entitled to take up employment or self-employment there.

[19730201]

N/A

[14121974]

Does EUROPEAN COMMISSION broaden the definition of family to include Non-EU citizen parents of a minor child who has EU citizenship?If they do,all parents can stay in any member states where they want to stay under DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC .

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Does EUROPEAN COMMISSION broaden the definition of family to include Non-EU citizen parents of a minor child who has EU citizenship?If they do,all parents can stay in any member states where they want to stay under DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC .

The explicit definition of "family member" included in DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC does not explicitly include the parents of a EU-citizen minor child. But those parents come fully under the specification of "beneficiaries" of the directive.

I have been working with a practical example of this recently. An UK citizen child of non-EU parents. Parent applied for visitor visa to accompany child to Ireland. Initially the Irish embassy wanted letter from parent's employer. Wanted bank account statements. Wanted confirmed flight and hotel reservations. Wanted a fee for the visa. In the end the visa was issued without any of this, though it took a while to convince them that they were wrong.

[Prawo]

Thanks for Mr Prawo's advice about the Case in Belgium.I received a possitive response from Belgium relevant department straight away in mail address : Helpdesk.dvzoe@dofi.fgov.be .Mr Prawo,if you know the details about the lawyer who dealt with that case in Belgium,please let me know.

That lawyer was me ;}
Acting from The Netherlands.




.

[Prawo]

Does EUROPEAN COMMISSION broaden the definition of family to include Non-EU citizen parents of a minor child who has EU citizenship?If they do,all parents can stay in any member states where they want to stay under DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC .

The commission doesn't, the Directive does, as teh Court explains in teh Cehn case.

More about parents of grown ups in the Courts decision in the recent Jia case.

Main point here: can you prove you support the parents (in law) when they are still in their home country so they can have a normal life there considering local conditions.


.

[dehualiu]

EEA family member

[19730201]

N/A