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didsburysmancs
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French position on civil partnerships and visas

Post by didsburysmancs » Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:22 pm

The reply from the French consulate in London read:

I refer to your letter of ....regarding the French stand on the British civil partnership.

I have contacted both the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs and of Justice. I regret to confirm that no new directive has been issued as yet regarding the gratuity of the visa administrative fees or an alleged procedure for the civil partners of British citizens. As you may know, the French civil solidarity pact applies to same sex and to opposite-sex couples, and therefore, cannot be considered equivalent to the British Civil Partnership.

I therefore invite your partner to arrange an appointment in the morning and produce all the requested supporting documents (proof of activity in the UK, proof of financial means of support, tickets to France, official proof of stay in France, travel medical insurance, which include medical cover and repatriation and photocopies of those).

Yours faithfully
Patrice Houette - deputy consul

So no change or give there then, the French are not prepared to recognise civil partners and civil partners can only apply as individuals. I guess they are not for taking any notice of the European directive.

Not sure where to take this now - anyone having more luck with the French. By the way, cannot get EU citizens rights to respond on this matter - have requested why EU does not reply, only get some computerised message that it has been dealt with which it hasn't.

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Re: French position on civil partnerships and visas

Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:27 pm

didsburysmancs wrote:Not sure where to take this now - anyone having more luck with the French. By the way, cannot get EU citizens rights to respond on this matter - have requested why EU does not reply, only get some computerised message that it has been dealt with which it hasn't.
Have you contacted the EU Solvit group (http://europa.eu.int/solvit/)? They have some recent experience with similar cases, and I suspect you will find them very helpful.

didsburysmancs
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Post by didsburysmancs » Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:34 pm

not contacted solvit yet - was waiting for a reply from EU citizens rights first - but they do not reply even though say they will in a 8 day period - but give it a go

didsburysmancs
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Post by didsburysmancs » Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:36 pm

worked out how to use SOLVIT - will take the case to them

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Post by Fairtrade » Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:19 pm

O dear, the French do not accept british civil partnerships.

If they did they will be losing out on all those 60 euro visa application fees.

Funny the European Union is supposed to have one rule for all the schengen coutries yet different countries still abuse the law so that they could make money out of nationals in a civil partnership with full european nationals. (sick)

didsburysmancs
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Post by didsburysmancs » Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:41 pm

Well, for one they are not getting the £60 from us! Fairtrade

Strangely, this afternoon, received this reply from the Signpost Service of the ECU Commission - that totally contradicts Monsieur at the Consulat. Replied to the consulate letting them know that the French Gov position is contravening EU directive - so now have to see what happens next. Here is the EU reply:-

Thank you for your enquiry.

1. Right to travel to France and residence in France for less than 3 months

Under Directive 2004/38, as an EU citizen you have the right to enter and reside up to 3 months in any EU country without having to fulfil any conditions.

Your family members also have a right to travel with you. Article 5(2) of the Directive states that “Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.â€

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Post by joesoap101 » Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:58 pm

The EU in its current form is a load of bollocks

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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:56 am

didsburysmancs wrote:Well, for one they are not getting the £60 from us! Fairtrade
Awsome!

I hope you have the patience and interest to carry this forward. It is a (time) investment which will pay off for everyone in a similar situation who comes after you.

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Post by mym » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:20 pm

didsburysmancs wrote: We suggest that you contact the French consulate again and seek an appointment with a consular official. If the consular authorities refuse to issue a visa to your partner, then you should contact us again so that we can provide you with further information.
Is there any update on this?
--
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didsburysmancs
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Post by didsburysmancs » Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:15 pm

No update as yet. The French consulate in London said it passed the question on to the French Government department. Heard nothing since. My Euro MEP has taken it up in Brussels but yet no news. So still waiting.

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Post by giruzz » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:52 am

If it helps...

I'm Italian and my gf is Thai.

My gf is in Australia as my partner. She also has a visa as EEA family member for the UK.

I asked a family visa for my long term gf to the Italian consulate in Sydney. They refused, the only thing we got was a $A100 tourist visa valid for 6months / 30days.

I did contacted SOLVIT before and I obtained the same answers as you guys. However, tthe lady I spoke to (at the consulate) refused to issue any visa for free or to issue a visa for longer that we needed (we already booked the flight in/out the country)..

She said 'at UE don't know anything about visas. We do what we want, if we want we can refuse a visa without reasons'.

I did approached SOLVIT again after this but I'm still waiting for an answer.

giruzz

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Switzerland

Post by flyboy » Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:44 pm

Regarding the issue with the french, why doesn't someone write to the UK authorities and tell them that since the french don't recognise UK civil partnerships as akin to marriage, the UK shouldn't be recognising french Pacs as akin to the UK Civil partnership / marriages and should not allow the gratuity of visas to partners of french citizens that have signed and entered into the french Pacs.

For instance, in Switzerland, UK civil partnerships are recognised as equivalent to the swiss registered partnership, whereas the french PACS are not recognised, as it is far from being akin to a marriage or civil partnership; thus anyone that has signed a french PACS and wish to have their relationship treated as akin to marriage, will have to enter into a registered partnership in Switzerland.

Anyone that understands french and read the PACS law will see that it is far from being akin to a marriage.
In my humble opinion, the UK should take the french PACS off the list of overseas partnerships recognised within the UK.

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Post by mym » Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:07 am

flyboy wrote:Regarding the issue with the french, why doesn't someone write to the UK authorities and tell them that since the french don't recognise UK civil partnerships as akin to marriage, the UK shouldn't be recognising french Pacs as akin to the UK Civil partnership / marriages and should not allow the gratuity of visas to partners of french citizens that have signed and entered into the french Pacs.
Why should we add to the pool of people having trouble?

This is a matter of obliging the french to conform to their legal obligations, not petty tit-for-tat racheting up of the inconveniences for us ordinary people.
--
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Post by mon-keyhanger » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:40 am

Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:47 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spain treats same sex registered couples as spouses/family members as well. Here's their response:

Same sex couples that are registered at the Civil Registry are given the visa free of charge.

Angelines Garcia
ANSWERING ALL POSTS ON THIS THREAD
ETC ETC
ETC ETC

I UK/EU NATIONALITYPassport holder (male)

SPOUSE Filipino (female)

MARRIED 10 years (certified- atessted in 3 countries with authorised stamps/ frankings etc

Story so far

1st visit to Spanish Embassy in Kuwait. 10-30 am with all documents supposed needed by searching internet for 3 weeks on requirements. Because Spanish Embassy in Kuwait don't answer the telephone.
RESULT- NO ACCESS to Embassy. TOLD to return next day by security guard as they always busy.

2nd visit: 8-30 am- RESULT: "We are taking no more visa applications today as we the quota". (thru al ittle grill at the secured entrance)

3rd visit" 8.00am. "Sorry full quota you should come earlier"

4th visit; 7.30 '"Sorry try coming before 4am people are sleeping outside"

5th OK I KNOW IT SOUNDS SILLY! 4.am (Sorry try earlier)

6th visit YES 3.15 wonderful- we get given a number by security and admitted at 8am.

ME- My wife is submitting a visa application as an EU spouse which I understand is free.

Them; Don't know what you mean. By the way she has not filled in half of the form.

Me: The parts she has not filled in are not to be filled in by a spouse of an EU/EAA citizen.

Them: Don't know what you are talking about. We want bank statements, hotel bookings, flight tickets etc etc .

Me. Under Schengen directives and information freely available on the net it states Idon'tfill in this info and it not required+ the family member schengen short visa is issued without charge. Can you tell me why you want these extra things over and above schengen directives?

Them; LOOK just bring the stuff we want.

Me But, But, But. Here are all the docs prooving 10 year marriage.

Them: MIRA ELLA IS FILIPINO.

Me. SO WHAT THE mumbble that got to do with it.

Them; Now total misdirection ploy telling me they can do what they feel really.

I ask again about a visa for a EU/EAA spouse and they just tell me to come again next day with docs- anyway it her application not yours we don't do any spouse of EU visas etc etcetc

I have given the reader a little of the frustration me and my wife feel by relating this story in this way (all true) but it was neccessary,

WE ARE VISITING UK IN AUGUST and wanted a couple of weeks away from UK family in delightful delicious Espana. My wife is asleep now during the day ready for a 3am line up alone as I can'tget any more tie of work. We won't hold our collective breath till she gets visa???????

What's up with these people? It all well and good publishing all these directives- advice for applicants, rules , and requirements BUT THEY MEAN BU**ER in reality it seems. CONSULAR OFFICIALS CAN DO WHATEVER and REQUIRE WHATEVER THEY WANT. Why don't they just say that and have done with it. Instead of giving this "positive spin" on things in public terms. WHY am I told by Spanish Consulate that there is NO FREE SPOUSE VISA for EE?EEA citizens sposes? If it exists it exists! If it DOESN''T exist for some sposes because of their nationality BL##DY say so!

Sorry for all you same sexes ot there but the issues here are bigger than that. Sort the bigger discrimination picture out and you won't have a problem logically. It is obvious that all the blocks put up against my spouse application can be used against you and THEY ARE. Again I truly accept that Consuls can use whatever they like against ANY application doesn't matter on sexual orientation, race, nationality, sock colours whatever. The problem is as stated they can do what they like and we have all got equality in adversity. Love Ken xx

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Post by mym » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:16 pm

mon-keyhanger wrote:Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:47 pm Post subject:

Me: The parts she has not filled in are not to be filled in by a spouse of an EU/EAA citizen.

Them: Don't know what you are talking about.

...

I ask again about a visa for a EU/EAA spouse and they just tell me to come again next day with docs- anyway it her application not yours we don't do any spouse of EU visas etc etcetc

I have given the reader a little of the frustration me and my wife feel by relating this story in this way (all true) but it was neccessary,
Dreadful. Apart from anything else the visa application form itself states clearly that spouses do not have to fill in the extra info.

Compare with the form that the Netherlands Embassy in Kuwait has on its website:
http://www.mfa.nl/kwe/consular_departme ... pplication

And the french:
http://www.ambafrance-kwt.org/IMG/SchgVisa_eng.pdf

Report the spanish to SOLVIT.

http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/

And if you have to go and see them again print out
http://ec.europa.eu/commission_barroso/ ... _ec_en.pdf

In the meantime I'd try one of the other Schengen embassies in Kuwait.
--
Mark Y-M
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:25 pm

mon-keyhanger wrote:WE ARE VISITING UK IN AUGUST and wanted a couple of weeks away from UK family in delightful delicious Espana.
The embassy's arrogant ignorance is a good reason not to go to Spain.

I have a sense that the German embassy visa sections are quite professionally run, and it is a lovely place to go in the summer (especially Munich and the alps in the south).

I would also suggest that you definitely contact Solvit now. Sometimes they take some time to get action, and it is worth not waiting on.

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Post by giruzz » Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:51 am

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:
mon-keyhanger wrote:WE ARE VISITING UK IN AUGUST and wanted a couple of weeks away from UK family in delightful delicious Espana.
The embassy's arrogant ignorance is a good reason not to go to Spain.

I have a sense that the German embassy visa sections are quite professionally run, and it is a lovely place to go in the summer (especially Munich and the alps in the south).

I would also suggest that you definitely contact Solvit now. Sometimes they take some time to get action, and it is worth not waiting on.
Hi,

after 1month and 3 days I'm still waiting for an answer from solvit. Any suggestions? (apart from call the ph. number I got in their automated reply)

g.

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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:23 pm

giruzz wrote:after 1month and 3 days I'm still waiting for an answer from solvit. Any suggestions? (apart from call the ph. number I got in their automated reply)
Contact them for an update of how things are going. Make sure to include your case reference and the date of your original submission.

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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:07 pm

http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/07 ... -movement/

There is a response to a MEP's questions to the Commission on registered partners and Directive 2004/38/EC. The Commission says
The Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and the United Kingdom have informed the Commission that they recognise registered partnerships as equivalent to marriage for the purposes of free movement under the Directive.

Belgium and Luxembourg have not yet transposed the Directive but national law of the former provides for same-sex marriages and that of the latter for registered partnerships.

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Post by giruzz » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:30 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:
giruzz wrote:after 1month and 3 days I'm still waiting for an answer from solvit. Any suggestions? (apart from call the ph. number I got in their automated reply)
Contact them for an update of how things are going. Make sure to include your case reference and the date of your original submission.
Today I finally received my answer from Solvit (defacto/regist partner with Italy). This is what I got:

Re: Claim by Mr. giruzz

This is in reply to the claim presented by Mr. giruzz (ref. N. 12345/07/IT) (NOTE, THE CONSULATE DID MISSPELLED MY NAME!)in relation to an application for a Schengen visa submitted to this Consulate General by his partner, Ms. GF_NAME GF_SURNAME, (NOTE: THE CONSULATE DID MISSPELLED MY GF'S NAME) citizen of Thailand.

Mr. giruzz claims:
that this Consulate General refused to grant his partner a Shengen visa,
that instead this Consulate General issued to the said partner a Tourist visa valid for a maximum stay of 30 days within a period of 6 months,
that this Consulate charged a fee of Euro 60.00,
that therefore the Consulate General disregarded the European Instructions 2004/38/EC, considering that Ms. GF_SURNAME is the holder of a British Family visa granted on the base of her defacto relationship with Mr. giruzz.

Having carefully considered the application submitted by Ms. GF_SURNAME and the abovementioned European Instructions, we believe that Mr. giruzz’s claim should be dismissed.

1)Refusal of Shengen Visa and
2)Issue of a Tourist Visa to Ms. GF_SURNAME
Ms. GF_SURNAME completed and signed a standard Shengen Visa Application Form requesting this Consulate to issue a visa with the following features:
Type of visa: Short Stay (less than 90 days)
Lenght of stay: 30 days
Purpose of travel: i) Tourism and ii) Visiting family / Friends
Date of entry into the Shengen area: 23/08/2007
As for accommodation the applicant produced a statement signed by Mr. DAD (the father of Mr. giruzz), whose invitation to Ms. GF_SURNAME to stay at his house extends only from 23/08/2007 until 20/09/2007.
(NOTE: They did refuse another invite for X-Mas, and I said I was ready to book flight in/out for that period)






After processing the application Ms. GF_SURNAME has been granted a Shengen Visa with the following features:
Reason for travel: TOURISM
Number of entries: MULTIPLE
Days: 30 days in six months
Starting date: 23/08/2007
Therefore contrary to what has been claimed by Mr. giruzz a Shengen visa has been granted. (NOTE: I never claimed that they refused to issue the visa, I claimed that they refused to issue a longer tourist visa or a EEA family member visa) The features of the visa are consistent with what has been requested by Ms. GF_SURNAME and with the statement signed by Mr. Orazio giruzz.

3)Fee and
4)European Instructions 2004/38/EC
According to European Instructions 2004/38/EC visas shall be issued free of charge to family members of European Citizens. A partner of a European Citizen whose relationship has been registered by a member State as equilized to marriage, is also to be considered a family member.
Instructions on the adoption of said legislation by the Italian Government were sent to Consular Offices only on the 23/07/2007. Therefore at the date of application this Consulate General was not aware of the changes introduced in the visa fee system.
However, regardless the above, we beleive that Ms. GF_SURNAME would have not be entitled to a fee-exempt visa.
According to the 2004/38/EC, as adopted by the Italian Government:
i)a partner of a EU citizen is to be considered a family member when the relationship has been registered by a member state on the base of its law, provided that such state equalizes the relationship to marriage,

ii)a family member of a EU citizen going to another EU State shall be granted a proper visa and such visa shall be free of charge.

Mr. giruzz is an Italian Citizen who at the time of application was going to his own country, he is not a citizen of another EU country travelling to Italy. Italy does not equalize a de-facto relationship to marriage and does not have a form of registration for such relationships. Moreover, Ms. GF_SURNAME is the holder of a British Visa as a Family Member of Mr. giruzz but did not produce a proof that her relationship has been registered in UK according to British law.
Given the above we believe that the case proposed by Mr. giruzz does not fall within the circumstances ruled by the 2004/38/EC. Therefore Ms. GF_SURNAME would have not been entitled to a fee exemption on that ground.


///////

Then, I'm writing another reply to solvit. I really would like to stress that the consulate did an awful work. The staff we work with has been very rude and unprofessional.

The guy that reply to Solvit hasn't been able to spell my or my gf's names correctly once. Moreover, he did report things that never happened (I never claimed that my gf did not receive a shengen visa).

Also, those guys seems to forgot the article 3.2 of Directive 2004/38/EC which says:

'Without prejudice to any right to free movement and
residence the persons concerned may have in their own right,
the host Member State shall, in accordance with its national
legislation, facilitate entry and residence for the following
persons:'

'b) the partner with whom the Union citizen has a durable
relationship, duly attested.'


Thanks

g.

didsburysmancs
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Civil partnerships not recognised in Ireland -

Post by didsburysmancs » Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:56 pm

For those following this thread, Ireland is not issuing visas to "the partner with whom the Union citizen has a durable relationship, duly attested"

This is the reply I received from the Irish visa section

Unfortunately Ireland does not recognise civil partnerships. Your partner will need to apply for the visa and submit the fee. The fee is 60 euro or £42 and can be made payable in the form of a bank draft or postal order. If you have any further queries please direct them to visamail@justice.ie

So no trip to Dublin for us!! It is not so much the fee, it is all the documentation they want including 6 months bank statement! Of course Ireland is not in the Schengen zone so it is impossible to get there.

But for the record, Spain is excellent - free visa issued to civil partner, no fuss whatsoever, and on the basis of passports and civil partnership certificate. And we even went to France with this Schenghen visa - and it was France that refused to give the visa to civil partners too. Getting around Europe is not easy - so much for free travel!!!

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Post by mym » Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:40 am

Take them to court.

The only way they will ever change is if you beat it into their heads legally.

DIRECTIVE 2004/58/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL

Whereas :

(31) This Directive respects the fundamental rights and freedoms
and observes the principles recognised in particular
by the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European
Union. In accordance with the prohibition of
discrimination contained in the Charter, Member States
should implement this Directive without discrimination
between the beneficiaries of this Directive on grounds
such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic
characteristics, language, religion or beliefs, political or
other opinion, membership of an ethnic minority, property,
birth, disability, age or sexual orientation
--
Mark Y-M
London

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Re: Civil partnerships not recognised in Ireland -

Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:39 am

didsburysmancs wrote:For those following this thread, Ireland is not issuing visas to "the partner with whom the Union citizen has a durable relationship, duly attested"

This is the reply I received from the Irish visa section

Unfortunately Ireland does not recognise civil partnerships. Your partner will need to apply for the visa and submit the fee. The fee is 60 euro or £42 and can be made payable in the form of a bank draft or postal order. If you have any further queries please direct them to visamail@justice.ie
Who exactly have you been talking with in the Irish government that you have been able to get written answers? Have you actually submitted an application?

I actually think they will issue it if you submit the application. I would suggest leaving a lot of information out of the application. And definitely do not pay the fee! And sure enough they will issue after a delay.


A friend submitted an application to them, to travel with her British citizen daughter. This is covered in the Directive under the same category you would be travelling.

They insisted on:
(1) fee
(2) employement details (including letter from employer!) and bank statements
(3) itinarary
(4) references in ireland

She refused to provide any of this, and in fact left a number of fields blank in the application form ("YOU MUST FILL OUT ALL PARTS OF THIS APPLICATION OR IT WILL BE REJECTED" not).

In the end they issued a 90 day visa. Sadly she has not had time to use it.

Send an application in! Put the onus on them to formally (and in writing) decline to issue the visa. If they do so they are braking the law and so they will not want to do that.

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Post by didsburysmancs » Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:16 am

Thanks for replies. I have been talking to
Visa Section, Department of Justice, Equality & Law Reform
13-14 Burgh Quay,
Dublin 2

There are a couple of people there who reply to emails but adament about not granting a visa.

I had all this with France before - who never conceded and my partner never got a visa from the French - but we went to France on a Schengen visa issued by Spain (who are excellent on all this - no fuss! no trouble)

But Ireland is not in the Schenghen zone so cannot use Schengen visa to go there.

I take your point about just making an application - but my partner needs his passport - if we post off to Irish embassy in London they may sit on it for months and we cannot afford that. Don't really want to send it and not get it back.

Anyone want to put some pressure on the Irish - ironic that there dept is called dept of ... equality - some equality.

If you want to email them for clarification, send to visamail@justice.ie
They do seem to read emails and receive very pleasant replies saying NO.

Thanks

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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:26 am

The information from the Visa information email is usually wrong. They are very certain of themselves, and often wrong. And they have no part in making visa decisions.

I understand your concern about passports. In reality, though, it is a very easy.

First time you submit your application, they will return it unprocessed and requesting money, more information (including what type of motor oil you used from 1998-1999), etc... So you get back your passport right away. You can then argue with them while in possession of the passport.

If for whatever reason they keep the passport while processing the application, you can simply ask for it back while making it clear you are not withdrawing your passport.

There is a lot of support you can get in all this. From Solvit. From the EU. And it almost becomes fun! I am also willing to go through all the details of my friend’s very successful application.

Apply now and apply often!

Locked