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The problem is that the UK does not issue residence cards to spouses of British citizens.Richard66 wrote:Dear Yulia,
It says two things, believe it or not!
It says that as a family member of an EU citizen you can benefit from visa-free travel to any EU or Schengen country, thus taking advantage of the directive, provided you produce your passport and your residence card.
Under it says that a residence card issued by a Schengen country is valid as a short-term visa for visits to other Schengen countries (as is the case of the UK)
If the Citizen's Signpost Service believes the UK is a member of the Schengen agreement we are really in trouble, because the UK and Ireland are two countries that are definitively NOT members!
What they mean is that with the UK residence card you need to travel with your husband. If you had a Schengen residence card you could travel to any other Schengen country with or without husband.
In any case your UK residence card, together with your passport and your marriage certificate (and accompanying husband!) should do the trick. Take, however, the Directive with you when you travel (in Spanish too) in case of trouble.
The UK doesn't really issue residence cards as such to anyone. (This tripped up a friend of mine who was marrying a Belgian woman in Belgium: the penpushers at the local town hall couldn't comprehend that he had no resident card as proof of address in the UK - his British passport of course provided no such proof. And they weren't impressed with the sort of proof that is used in the UK - driving licence, gas bill, etc, etc.)Dawie wrote:The problem is that the UK does not issue residence cards to spouses of British citizens.
They do issue residence cards to EU citizens and their spouses!Christophe wrote:The UK doesn't really issue residence cards as such to anyone. (This tripped up a friend of mine who was marrying a Belgian woman in Belgium: the penpushers at the local town hall couldn't comprehend that he had no resident card as proof of address in the UK - his British passport of course provided no such proof. And they weren't impressed with the sort of proof that is used in the UK - driving licence, gas bill, etc, etc.)Dawie wrote:The problem is that the UK does not issue residence cards to spouses of British citizens.
Anyway, I digress. Would the UK resident's passport endorsement itself be the only likely alternative, and a suitable one for this purpose?
Prawo is talking about non-EU citizens, not EU citizens.Richard66 wrote:Prawo, the Directive covers people travelling to another EU country. It says nowhere that this EU citizen must be living in a third EU country to be able to travel to another EU state. It would be caos if, for example, only Germans living in Spain and travelling to Sweden could benefit from this.
The reason most people get confused with the terms are because while all other EU countries supplies the non-EEA national with the Residence Card in the form of a card itself, the UK endorses a vignette that looks exactly like the format laid down for such purposes into the passport of the non-EEA national, thus making it look more like a visa rather than a card.Christophe wrote:Yes, you're quite right! My apologies for the oversight.Dawie wrote:They do issue residence cards to EU citizens and their spouses!
The EU citizen need not be living in the 3rd EU country to avail the right of free movement for the non-EU family member. But, the Residence Card that is supposed to be the document that grants such a right is issued only to non-EU nationals residing with the EU national in another EU country and the whole part if covered by paragraph (2) of Article 5 of the Directive.Richard66 wrote:Prawo, the Directive covers people travelling to another EU country. It says nowhere that this EU citizen must be living in a third EU country to be able to travel to another EU state. It would be caos if, for example, only Germans living in Spain and travelling to Sweden could benefit from this.
The reason most people get confused with the terms are because while all other EU countries supplies the non-EEA national with the Residence Card in the form of a card itself, the UK endorses a vignette that looks exactly like the format laid down for such purposes(COM/2003/558) into the passport of the non-EEA national, thus making it look more like a visa rather than a card.Christophe wrote:Yes, you're quite right! My apologies for the oversight.Dawie wrote:They do issue residence cards to EU citizens and their spouses!
You are right.Richard66 wrote:Prawo, the Directive covers people travelling to another EU country. It says nowhere that this EU citizen must be living in a third EU country to be able to travel to another EU state.
I do not agree with this one.Richard66 wrote:UK living in Germany married to Russian going to the UK to visit needs visitor visa (please pay)
Sorry Prawo, I do not agree with that. The UK does not differentiate between long and short stay. All are required to get the EEAFP regardless if the non-EEA family member is a visa national. Also, you will have a tougher time proving to the border control that the Surinder Singh route is being used and not the Immigration rules. Under the immigration rules the Russion can be send back.I do not agree with this one.
There is no visa requirement here.
Again, this depends on how long the UK has been living in Germany (or any other EEA Member State). If you can prove that the British National has been employed or exercising treaty rights in Germany for more than 6 months, they apply for the EEA Family Permit free of charge as the EEA route kicks in. If not, they will need the Visit Visa as you have figured out. Either way a "visa" is needed.Richard66 wrote:UK living in Germany married to Russian going to the UK to visit needs visitor visa (please pay)
Again, sorry, but in the case of Switzerland allowing visa free travel, it is due to the national laws of Switzerland and a Residence Card under Article 10 will not be issued and is not required.Keep in mind that in all the cases you mention the visa free travel, there is the requirement the member state they live in issue the EU permit permit card as foreseen in art. 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC.
If your wife has an Italian Residence Card, then she should not need a visa as mentioned by Prawo, and this is not debated upon. My statement you qouted above is strictly for family members one who does not hold a Residence Card. If your wife does hold a Residence Card, take the Marriage Certificate, hopefully translated in English, along with the copy of section 5 of this pdf to beat the head of the IO with.Again in my case to prove this is easy: I have an Italian Residence Card issued in December 2006 (before the Italians made away with the need for this card) and in my wife's Residence Card my name appears as being the husband. And what's more, on my multilingual marriage certificate it states we married in Italy.
Actually, they are both right.Now, who is right?
They should, but not that easily. But, this is what you should be doing.Or are you telling me that if we produce the marriage certificate and our residence cards and our passports we won't need to say anything and they'll let us through?
I can't tell you to lie, but if that is what you understand, keep up the good work. Also it has to be done at the ECO at the British Embassy where you are applying from for the EEAFP. Have to agree that it is "madnees" though.are you saying that if at the port of entry I tell the truth and say we're just visiting the UK they'll send my wife back but if I tell a lie and say we're going to settle in the UK they'll let us in? This is madnees.
Yeah! You came to settle, changed your mind and went back and you are returning again. The important question in such a case is- How good are you at poker?What about when we leave and try to enter another time? Same story?
The quote above is not what I said, but what I commented on.Richard66 wrote:Aha, Prawo! This is just what the British Solvit and the British Embassy in Rome, supported by UK visas, has told me!UK living in Germany married to Russian going to the UK to visit needs visitor visa (please pay)
That is NOT what they said.They told me that if I, the UK citizen living in Italy married to a Russian going to the UK on a visit, must apply for a visitor's visa on behalf of my wife.
What they say is the UK citizen concerned (and his family members)cannot benefit from EU rights if he was merely receiving services in another member state.Here's what they say:
Directive 2004/38/EC provides rights for EU nationals to travel to other Member States and enables their non-EU family members to travel with them. Article 5.2 of the Directive provides that a visa shall be issuedto a non-EU family member free of charge and on the basis of an accelerated procedure.
However, EC immigration legislation is designed to ensure that an EU citizen can travel to another Member State and not encounter discrimination on the basis of his being a non national of that Member State, it does not extend to citizens travelling back to their home Member State. In an attempt to address this point, the Surinder Singh Judgement in the European Courts established that a UK citizen, for example, if travelling back to the UK, was entitled not to [be] considered a UK citizen but an EU citizen - and so eligible under EC legislation - but only if the citizen was returning to the UK to work, to be employed or self- employed. The Surinder Singh Judgement did not extend to nationals of a Member State who are returning temporarily, for example on holiday. And if the citizen is not entitled to be considered under the Directive, then nor would the non-EU family member.
The Citizen's Signpost Service gave me another answer to the same question:
Thank you for your inquiry.
Under Directive 2004/38, as the spouse of an EU citizen your wife has the right to enter and reside up to 3 months in any EU country without having to fulfil any conditions.
As a family member of an EU citizen’s family, your wife has a right to travel with you. Article 5(2) of the EU Directive on residence rights of EU citizens states that “Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.â€
I can't pull that one on the Rome Embassy: they know me by now and they know we're only going on a visit. , as I have written two letters of protest about this nonsense and I'm about to write a third telling them I'm forwarding the whole case to the European Commission, including their shoddy replies, and suggesting they might inform Immigration that we're coming WITHOUT the visa and that failure to admit us will constitute further proof the UK is in breach of Directive 2004/38.I can't tell you to lie, but if that is what you understand, keep up the good work. Also it has to be done at the ECO at the British Embassy where you are applying from for the EEAFP. Have to agree that it is "madnees" though.
Let's see: "Oh, Mr Dodge, this is is tenth time you return to the UK to settle! Will you change your mind as you did the other nine times and come back to Italy?"Yeah! You came to settle, changed your mind and went back and you are returning again. The important question in such a case is- How good are you at poker?