Pros and Cons for British Economy by allowing NonEU Parents

[uk2k10]

I was wondering if there are any benefits to British Economy if they allow Non Eu - parents of people settled in Britain.

There has always been a myth/cry about the burden the parents would add to British Economy.
There is emotional/responsibility side of children whose parent's are in Non EU countries and children settled as British. - I would not talk about emotional side.

Please add Pros and Cons to British Economy in allowing Non Eu - parents of people settled in Britain.

Pros:
1. Non EU countries (specially India) have a culture of savings and they would bring all that savings with them.
2. Children after working few years specially in highly skilled jobs like (doctors, CA, IT etc) tend to move back to home countries - resulting in loss of talent and investments that they will take back to home countries
3. The money they would be spending on vacations/holiday in UK/Europe is spent on travel and leisure in NonEU countries
4. They spent/invest money in home countries because of uncertainty that they might have to move back to give company to their lonely parents (lonely does not mean ill, destitute)

There is a lot of financial and Talent drain that happens because of forcing Non Eu parents to stay away from their children.

Another misconception is that Parents mean some one in their late 70s or 80s.
Most of the parents are in late 50s or early 60s i.e. they do not require the kind of medical attention that is perceived, plus to make sure they are not brought here to get immediate medical care - there is a rule that the child bringing his/her parents to UK to settle will provide 5 years medical care without any support from public pocket.

Lets not just try please / mislead the British public for votes -- I am not talking about the emotional drain that all those Britishers go through(Yes they are Britishers now and should have equal rights as any other britisher who would like to stay close to his parents and spend good times with them - make them feel secure that he/she is approachable).

There has always been an argument that if you care so much, why don't you go back.

You cannot mistreat/discriminate saying if you don't like it go back
Would it be ok if an employer mistreats his/her employee and say if you don't like quit, no it wont be, there are certain principles as humans we live with.

I hope all EU British and Non EU British will give it a thought and would discuss this in healthy way.

Believe me we want Britain to progress (its our home now), we do not want it to be burdened.
No one would do that to their home. (Odd black sheep is always there in every scenario)



Cons:

[physicskate]

Parents may, or may not, bring savings. They have not, however, paid taxes to the UK over the course of their lives. Parents have not paid into the NHS. I pay into the NHS at present to pay for my care when I need help (presumably when I get old). If parents come under the current rules, they do not have savings to support themselves.

As much as you might feel disadvantaged not having your parents around, you did, at some point, make a conscious decision to leave them and come to the UK (as did I). The UK has rules that you agree to abide by when you stay here. And of course you have a choice to leave and move elsewhere if you don't like the conditions here. You can disagree with those rules, but as long as you are here, you tacitly agree to abide by them.

Your argument about leaving a job if it is not a healthy environment is laughable. Would you not quit a job where you feel you are disadvantaged?! If you can find a better situation, of course you will take it!!!

Perhaps you should start a debating club, but reason here is not apparently on your side....

[uk2k10]

On part of the laughable example - You have answered it your self .. if you found a better opportunity.

I (We) are here because its a better place and there is no denying it but if you cannot switch or do not have other opportunities, this does not allow to be treated in appropriately.

I totally agree with you that NHS costs will come into play at some stage.

Lets be realistic will the funds they bring in, the contributions that will flow out in case the young Britons have to move out to accompany their parents will be any less then NHS cost per person and these parents have some good and healthy years of working life as well.

Lets not just be scared but be realistic.

Yes we made a conscious decision when we opted for British Citizen (which for start said you will be treated as any other Briton)
Still I am not saying change the laws because I want it, I am not saying we should not obey the laws.

All I am saying are these laws in favour of British economy and population or are they just public pleaser.

Is NHS cost the only reason ... give it a thought my friend


Yes we made a

[Wanderer]

I remember one person on here years ago who had brought a person over, asking if they could claim pension credits for her as they wouldn't afford to keep her. It's fine giving a financial undertaking but a comfortable situation can turn nasty with a loss of a job or some other financial emergency, then who picks up the tab?

Another reason why this will never happen is there is no culture of chain migration or really hanging on to parents here like other parts of the World, indeed most Brits are living independent lives at 20 or so, and can't wait to leave home. Whether it's good or bad, doesn't matter, it's not the culture here.

[uk2k10]

I appreciate that you are considering practically about what could happen

I agree that none of us knows what destiny beholds, but exceptions cant set precedence.

I also agree that there is a cultural difference between Brits who are here from generations and us who will/are just turned British.
But I thought and honestly feel we came here and Britain accepted us because its a multi - cultural society.

I am not trying to say or mean in any way that because Britain is multi-cultural society it should except anything/everything that other cultures believe in.

It should weigh pros/cons and then make decisions (which I am sure they would have done while making this law as well), All I am trying to do here is shed some light on pros that I feel they(system) would have missed out while making such decisions/laws.

My learned/intelligent friends here would know far more reasons and would appreciate if they can bring them forward.

Also its healthy for us to know the proper reason for this decision like friends like you are pointing out, so we can understand why it out weighs what we think. Coz just the cost of NHS is not good enough reason(though significant, if you feel so).

Adding to the reason that they may/may not bring their savings is that, there is no reason leaving the savings they have for them and their UK based child behind in home country ... its not chain migration, its family.

Saying you made a decision is easy, wish the decision was simple as heads/tails.

[Wanderer]

Right, to answer the question specifically, based on what I've seen here;

1. The vast majority of people on here asking about ADR visa are for ill/infirm/need care type requests. Can't recall hardly any where the parent(s) are fit and healthy.

2. I think the cost of treating/caring for if needed etc of an adult is significantly more than the cost if the visa, ignoring the financial undertaking because as far as I can see, it's not a legal undertaking.

3. Never read about any migrant even considering returning home to look after elderly parents.

4. Vote winning. I'd imagine any party that supported a move like this would never get any votes outside those with vested interests and if in power, wouldn't last long...

Based on the above I can't see any economic benefits for UK, only a potential hefty drain but perhaps more important to those involved, it's just not a vote-winner or a popular move to the Great British Public....

[uk2k10]

1. The vast majority of people on here asking about ADR visa are for ill/infirm/need care type requests. Can't recall hardly any where the parent(s) are fit and healthy.

The people who ask for ADR (if that means adult dependent relative) are not fit and healthy because that is what the visa is - I am not asking for ADR visa I am asking for family unification, and trust me most friends I know are in early 30s and there parents in early 60s with very few health issues.

2. I think the cost of treating/caring for if needed etc of an adult is significantly more than the cost if the visa, ignoring the financial undertaking because as far as I can see, it's not a legal undertaking.

Govt should work out a plan for 5 year undertaking to be legal, costs are there and their is no denying.
Make them pay 5/10 year medical insurance premium or whatever - that's experts to discuss and decide

3. Never read about any migrant even considering returning home to look after elderly parents.
I know many and down the line I will be one of them. (When you say elderly parent, I don't know why I get the impression someone lying in bed ailing in last few years if not months of his life) - Its not like that.
I know so many entrepreneurs/doctors/PhDs who would have given it a second thought to move to UK ( which I guess we British will not want - not sure for what reason) but they do not because of this constraint.

4. Vote winning. I'd imagine any party that supported a move like this would never get any votes outside those with vested interests and if in power, wouldn't last long...
I might not have got this point of yours but staying with parents and sharing is not vested interest, its culture in some societies that have merged in British society and Britain has accepted these societies.
No one wants to be burden on their own house (except some who play the system)

Based on the above I can't see any economic benefits for UK, only a potential hefty drain but perhaps more important to those involved, it's just not a vote-winner or a popular move to the Great British Public....

Another benefit that I realised while writing and related to news I read today - The child care cost has gone so high and having grandparents around would reduce that burden on economy - and believe me the culture that wants their parents around - they care for there grandchildren too (In no way I am indicating that culture here shows any less care - I do admire and appreciate the way parents grandparents and children form a family)
Sorry if I have dragged the topic too much.

The ask is not for vested interest, its for the same feeling that you and I have for our parents, they don't change if we come from different parts of the world.
It should not be a decision between leaving parents or leaving country - It should be staying with parent and making our home progress and finding ways of doing that.

You can disagree and maybe I am not good at putting my point forward or wrong all together .. but I will try

[Wanderer]

Something for me to think about - I can't help assuming Adult Dependant Relative because that's all wee deal with here - I have another go later and try and not think that way. I've got set opinions but I have had my mind changed on here before so I'm not cast in stone.

[uk2k10]

Appreciate It !

[secret.simon]

Here's my tuppeny'orth of contribution to the debate.

I start with the caveat that the main negative factor for parents not being allowed into the country is emotional. An influx of older people into the country is a visible change to the population and culture of the country. While a significant number of young people can be justified on the grounds of a skills shortage, an influx of older people purely on the grounds of family reunion would not go down so well. Just to point out the obvious, most Eastern Europeans who are coming to the UK are of working age and contribute to the economy far more than parents of non-EEA migrants. Yet, their visible presence has led to the rise of UKIP.

Having dealt with a very important caveat, let's look at the practical reasons for not allowing non-EEA parents into the UK. The main reason that I can think of is not based on economy, but society.

Social Integration: Older people tend to adapt less to the British way of life than younger people. That is not to say that they can't, it is just less likely. They are more likely to hold on to what is acceptable in their home countries rather than in the UK. And what is acceptable back there may not be in the UK. What is more, that can have an effect on their grandchildren, which may interfere with their integration into British social mores.

It took the UK a couple of decades to accept and integrate with the influx of East African Asians in the 1970s and I have a feeling that they are not in a hurry to repeat the situation.

Insignificant economic benefit of savings: Except in a small number of developed countries, older people almost everywhere else will not have built up a significant enough investment for their old age (in £ terms). Thus, although their savings may be large enough in terms of their home countries, in UK terms, it is a pittance. It could be argued that their UK families would take care of them. However, that assumes that their children will always have the ability to do so, which is never possible to forecast. If anything were to happen to the family, the state may be forced to intervene. If there were a high number of people who fell onto state aid, that may have an effect elsewhere in the national budget.

Impact on local jobs: It is quite common on threads in these forums to request for help in getting family here to look after a wife during pregnancy, their grandchildren, etc. While that is quite common in the cultures that they come from, that takes jobs away from local child care centers, midwives, etc. So there is a perceptible negative impact, albeit small, on the local jobs economy.

If the parents have a few years of working life left in them, even worse!!! They are competing for jobs with the locals, hardly something that they would appreciate.

Outflow of money from the UK: I think that the notion of money and skills flooding out of the UK is a bogeyman. I'm sure the government would have looked at the scale of the issue, if it were to be such a major issue.

To begin with, if you have become a British citizen, a major part of your estate is likely to be in the UK, where it is going to be taxed. So no harm there.

Secondly, a lot of non-migrant native Brits go on holiday to South-East Asia and regions outside the EU. Conversely, London is one of the most popular tourist destinations in the world. Some of them may even be parents flying in for a visit. Such things, like karma, balance out.

I'll end my observation by saying that, with great respect to the OP, the question itself is flawed. The decision not to allow parents of migrants into the country was taken by a democratically elected government. When people vote, many people decide to vote based on their feelings. An influx of migrants, be they East European or parents of migrants, creates hostility towards migrants. At the ballot box, they will therefore vote for anti-immigration parties.

Therefore the question as to the practical impact is irrelevant. The question should be how to make it emotionally palatable to the public of this country.

PS: A tuppence buys a lot of thoughts from me

[Rayking]

Let's be honest,if they allow that then the next we're going to ask for is our brothers and sisters to be allowed next. A lot of us will abuse it,the country has been through all that before.
I know if it were possible some of us will bring ALL of our family members down here,it's good for individual but not fair on others. Though they do allow it in US but may be we can't really compare US to Britain.

[Mauser1905]

Let's be honest,if they allow that then the next we're going to ask for is our brothers and sisters to be allowed next. A lot of us will abuse it,the country has been through all that before.
I know if it were possible some of us will bring ALL of our family members down here,it's good for individual but not fair on others. Though they do allow it in US but may be we can't really compare US to Britain.

Spot on.

I see there will be genuine cases but then greens burn with dry ones.
We may not have seen this situation if it wasn't been badly abused in the first place.

[Casa]

Migration Watch report that "94% of Britons think that Britain is 'full up' and 79% of people in England think that England is overcrowded." I don't believe that any party will take the risk of relaxing current immigration Rules.
One would also have to agree that within the 94% & 74% there are those who have parents (elderly or not) living outside of the UK.

[Mauser1905]

Migration Watch report that "94% of Britons think that Britain is 'full up' and 79% of people in England think that England is overcrowded." I don't believe that any party will take the risk of relaxing current immigration Rules.
One would also have to agree that within the 94% & 74% there are those who have parents (elderly or not) living outside of the UK.

In case of minors above 12/13 their views are taken into major legal decisions. In case of senior adults, offcourse their views should be also considered, meaning do such age group parents would consider relocation permanently or not, to the UK? The argument is most of the time what son/daughter think/perceive of welfare of parents rather what is parents unbiased take on this.

Personally if rules allowed and I invited, my parents wouldn't come; rest apart permanent move. When they came last time they went back within 2 months as couldn't adjust to the weather here (Aug-Sept), and I honestly cant fault them. If and when the time comes for long term care, I believe their local environment will be much better than an alien one.

Care of ADR is a choice between purely emotional or practical decisions and there can be a balance between these two. Afterall I do not even think for a minute that my children will have to leave their livelihood and sacrifice their life to nurse me when I will be in care.

[uk2k10]

Here's my tuppeny'orth of contribution to the debate.

I start with the caveat that the main negative factor for parents not being allowed into the country is emotional. An influx of older people into the country is a visible change to the population and culture of the country. While a significant number of young people can be justified on the grounds of a skills shortage, an influx of older people purely on the grounds of family reunion would not go down so well. Just to point out the obvious, most Eastern Europeans who are coming to the UK are of working age and contribute to the economy far more than parents of non-EEA migrants. Yet, their visible presence has led to the rise of UKIP.
- Point Taken – There is an emotional side to it and there is no denying but there is also a practical side, people from non-eea that are allowed in the country are only highly skilled ones and that too after a very stringent scrutiny so losing them would be a downside if not a loss. The families that will migrate (which I am sure not all parents will be happy to migrate) will bring in all their life assets over and will contribute to the economy. Parties like UKIP will rise for one or the other pretence and they should keep rising because they keep us in check.

Having dealt with a very important caveat, let's look at the practical reasons for not allowing non-EEA parents into the UK. The main reason that I can think of is not based on economy, but society.

Social Integration: Older people tend to adapt less to the British way of life than younger people. That is not to say that they can't, it is just less likely. They are more likely to hold on to what is acceptable in their home countries rather than in the UK. And what is acceptable back there may not be in the UK. What is more, that can have an effect on their grandchildren, which may interfere with their integration into British social mores.

- That is true that older people tend to adapt less, so those who won’t feel comfortable adapting will opt out and move back, I am sure they won’t be creating nuisance to change way of life in UK and if one does I am hopeful that law is there to take care of thatIt took the UK a couple of decades to accept and integrate with the influx of East African Asians in the 1970s and I have a feeling that they are not in a hurry to repeat the situation.

Insignificant economic benefit of savings: Except in a small number of developed countries, older people almost everywhere else will not have built up a significant enough investment for their old age (in £ terms). Thus, although their savings may be large enough in terms of their home countries, in UK terms, it is a pittance. It could be argued that their UK families would take care of them. However, that assumes that their children will always have the ability to do so, which is never possible to forecast. If anything were to happen to the family, the state may be forced to intervene. If there were a high number of people who fell onto state aid, that may have an effect elsewhere in the national budget.
- This being a 2 part observation, I will see if I can address both
I am sure there is a huge gap in currencies in east n west, but there is also a huge gap in saving culture, people in east have always believed in saving and this is their life savings we are talking about which I am sure will be significant.

Just for example UK is providing entrepreneur visas to people making investment of 200K in UK, similar or reasonable limit of investment could be put for family re-unification (We are not discussing ADR, we are talking a way possible for parents who are willing to stay with their children who have moved to UK, without being a burden)

Where the point of falling ill and children not able to support is concerned, there are insurance policies to cover it. (We have already started charging 200GBP a year for health insurance to most visa types, similar or higher could be extended to this)

Impact on local jobs: It is quite common on threads in these forums to request for help in getting family here to look after a wife during pregnancy, their grandchildren, etc. While that is quite common in the cultures that they come from, that takes jobs away from local child care centers, midwives, etc. So there is a perceptible negative impact, albeit small, on the local jobs economy.
- No doubt there will be loss of jobs if we take the scenario but will it be more practical that a family takes care of the child or a carer, I believe family would make more sense.
- Will free a lot of mothers to go back to jobs as they don’t have to keep calculating is carer cost has out grown the benefits to go back to work

If the parents have a few years of working life left in them, even worse!!! They are competing for jobs with the locals, hardly something that they would appreciate.
- This has got me stumped, I am not sure how to answer – if they don’t work they are burden as not paying taxes and if they work and pay taxes they eat up jobs (so no comment on this)
Outflow of money from the UK: I think that the notion of money and skills flooding out of the UK is a bogeyman. I'm sure the government would have looked at the scale of the issue, if it were to be such a major issue.
- There has been a huge change in last 5-10 yrs in economies and opportunities in eastern countries (India for example – please don’t throw that line that then go back, this is not a debate about staying or going back)
When financial benefits are getting outweighed we need to get something more that will keep the talent in UK and attract someone over
To begin with, if you have become a British citizen, a major part of your estate is likely to be in the UK, where it is going to be taxed. So no harm there.
- Is it so?, if I decide to move back to my parents’ home country – I doubt it, I will leave anything, will take back everything I have earned (including some beautiful memories of this wonderful country ), same my parents’ would do if they move over this side of the world.
Secondly, a lot of non-migrant native Brits go on holiday to South-East Asia and regions outside the EU. Conversely, London is one of the most popular tourist destinations in the world. Some of them may even be parents flying in for a visit. Such things, like karma, balance out.
- Agree on this – but this is more of a forced vacation, I make a forced vacation to parental country when I could have made it around different places in the world (I am British and I am allowed to ask the govt for what will help/benefit me – hope I am not wrong)
I'll end my observation by saying that, with great respect to the OP, the question itself is flawed. The decision not to allow parents of migrants into the country was taken by a democratically elected government. When people vote, many people decide to vote based on their feelings. An influx of migrants, be they East European or parents of migrants, creates hostility towards migrants. At the ballot box, they will therefore vote for anti-immigration parties.
- Thanks for you observations and its really kind of you for giving this a thought, its definitely to do with how the idea is perceived by the wider audience. I am sure there are so many right things that would not get you votes, I am trying to find balance between the right thing and public perception (I am no one decide what is right – so debate is open)Therefore the question as to the practical impact is irrelevant. The question should be how to make it emotionally palatable to the public of this country.

PS: A tuppence buys a lot of thoughts from me
Your tuppence are highly appreciated and worth every penny 