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What is your nationality and what nationality is your wife? You may be making incorrect assumptions about nationality for your child.benifa wrote: My main question here, if anyone can help please, is as follows. My wife is due to give birth to our first baby in January 2008, a baby boy. The baby will be born in Ireland. We have decided that our child will carry the citizenship of his mother. The baby could, of course, also carry my citizenship, but due to my wife's country not allowing it's citizens to hold dual nationality, we've chosen my wife's non-EEA citizenship for our child.
If he is a British citizen then the Ireland born child will automatically be an Irish citizen.archigabe wrote:My guess is that he holds a british passport. Another British/Asian couple also seem to have received the 5 year residence card.
I'm British, spouse Singaporean. Both countries allow citizenship by decent, to one generation. Steps have already been taking by us to register Singapore citizenship for our son at Singapore's London Embassy (unfortunately there is no Singapore mission in Ireland). And JAJ is correct, our baby would indeed be also entitled to Irish citizenship by nature of his birth, in accordance with the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004. However, as stated, will have decided against this.JAJ wrote:What is your nationality and what nationality is your wife? You may be making incorrect assumptions about nationality for your child.
archigabe, it's interesting what you say, that the Irish have a special status for British passport holders even if they don't satisfy Irish S.I 656. Could this be true? If so, the legality of this must surely be questionable.archigabe wrote:My guess is that he holds a british passport. Another British/Asian couple also seem to have received the 5 year residence card.Seems that the Irish have a special status for British passport holders even if they don't satisfy Irish S.I 656
You should understand that your child will be a British citizen (by descent) irrespective of what you "decide", assuming you were born or naturalised in the United Kingdom. Same goes for being an Irish citizen.benifa wrote: I'm British, spouse Singaporean. Both countries allow citizenship by decent, to one generation. Steps have already been taking by us to register Singapore citizenship for our son at Singapore's London Embassy (unfortunately there is no Singapore mission in Ireland). And JAJ is correct, our baby would indeed be also entitled to Irish citizenship by nature of his birth, in accordance with the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004. However, as stated, will have decided against this.
On account of Singapore not recognising dual citizenship, we will also not be obtaining a British passport for our son. Of course, not holding a British passport does not remove entitlement to the same, which could prove important for our son in years to come.
Thanks for the advice JAJ. You are correct in all points. I am familiar with the British, Irish and Singapore citizenship laws and requirements. I was not aware of Singapore being somewhat unforgiving to former citizens, though. Good to note, thanks.JAJ wrote:You should understand that your child will be a British citizen (by descent) irrespective of what you "decide", assuming you were born or naturalised in the United Kingdom. Same goes for being an Irish citizen.benifa wrote: I'm British, spouse Singaporean. Both countries allow citizenship by decent, to one generation. Steps have already been taking by us to register Singapore citizenship for our son at Singapore's London Embassy (unfortunately there is no Singapore mission in Ireland). And JAJ is correct, our baby would indeed be also entitled to Irish citizenship by nature of his birth, in accordance with the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004. However, as stated, will have decided against this.
On account of Singapore not recognising dual citizenship, we will also not be obtaining a British passport for our son. Of course, not holding a British passport does not remove entitlement to the same, which could prove important for our son in years to come.
As far as I understand, Singapore will insist that he formally renounces any other citizenship held (ie, my making declarations under foreign law) to remain Singaporean as an adult, post age 21.
There are also Singapore's onerous National Service obligations to consider.
Most people I know of in a similar situation to yours do not try to get Singapore citizenship for their child. The reason for this is that Singapore is not all that "forgiving" towards former citizens - in other words, it is better not to ever have been a Singapore citizen compared to being an ex-citizen.
If a child was born on the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005 their citizenship entitlement depends on the citizenship of the person's parents at the time of the person's birth. Since 1 January 2005, a child born to non-Irish national parents is only entitled to Irish citizenship if at least one parent has been legally resident in Ireland for a minimum of three out of the four years immediately preceding the child's birth. If a person is eligible they have to apply for citizenship, they do not get it automatically.
Persons born after 1st January 2005
An application for citizenship can be made if at the time of birth that person had a parent who was:
- an Irish citizen or entitled to be an Irish citizen
- A person who is not Irish but who has been legally resident in Ireland for 3 out of the 4 years immediately preceding the birth of their child
Note: time spent as asylum seeker, student or undocumented does not count You can apply to the Passport Office for an Irish passport for your child. You will need proof that you have been resident in Ireland for 3 out of the previous four years & a photocopy of your passport or record of residency from the GNIB.
The three years residency rule is correct, with the exception of British citizens. If either parent is a British citizen, there is no minimum residency requirement, on the basis that British citizens have an unrestricted right of residence in Northern Ireland.scrudu wrote:Are you sure that under current laws the child would be entitled to Irish citizenship? His parents only moved to Ireland in 11/2005 (under 2 years ago). Since 2005, children born in Ireland are only entitled to Irish citizenship if they are the children of Irish citizens, or their parents have been residing in Ireland for the past 3 years. See http://www.mrci.ie/know_rights/legalsta ... idency.htm
Archie wroteI wonder whether it is different in this case as his wife is Singaporean, and therefore is not on the "visa required" list? R/E the 2 couples you knew who were granted a Stamp4EUFAM: What countries were the non-EU spouses from?
Sorry benifa this is outside the topic but I have to answer.My guess is that he holds a british passport. Another British/Asian couple also seem to have received the 5 year residence card.Seems that the Irish have a special status for British passport holders even if they don't satisfy Irish S.I 656
As far as I understand, it is possible to have dual Singapore/other citizenship as a child.benifa wrote: Thanks for the advice JAJ. You are correct in all points. I am familiar with the British, Irish and Singapore citizenship laws and requirements. I was not aware of Singapore being somewhat unforgiving to former citizens, though. Good to note, thanks.
Your case is likely to be unique - they are unlikely to see many others where a child is an Irish citizen but the parents want an EEA stamp on a foreign passport.Back to the original question though, can anybody confirm that a non-EEA child born in Ireland must complete an EU1 application, just as any other non-EEA family member would? And what about the residency in another Member State condition?
Every person born in the island of Ireland 3 is entitled to be an Irish citizen. If you were born anywhere in Ireland, it is open to you to choose to exercise that entitlement.
If you, as a person born in the island of Ireland do an act which only an Irish citizen is entitled to do (for instance, applying for an Irish passport), the law regards that as an exercise of your entitlement to be an Irish citizen, and you are accordingly an Irish citizen from birth. This also applies to persons not yet of full age (i.e. those still under 18 and not married) on whose behalf such an act is done.
If you were born in Ireland, the mere fact that you have not done (or if under age have not had done on your behalf) such an act does not on its own mean that you are not an Irish citizen. Nor does it mean that you are presumed to be a citizen of another country.
This is correct. My brother was in this very situation. He was a Singapore and British citizen, but did not keep strong ties to Singapore throughout his childhood. He also never lived in Singapore. As a result, at the age of 18, my brother had little interested in Singapore and certainly no interest in entering in to National Service. He did not enter Singapore for two and a half years for fear of being arrested. My brother now only holds a British passport.JAJ wrote:As far as I understand, it is possible to have dual Singapore/other citizenship as a child.
But herein lies the problem. Once you register your child as Singaporean then he is stuck with it. He can't renounce or lose it until he does his National Service.
If he wants to keep his British and Irish citizenship, then he is effectively forced to do Singapore NS even though he will lose Singapore citizenship straight afterwards. If he doesn't report for his NS then obviously Britain won't hand him over but being unable to enter Singapore without the prospect of arrest isn't really an "asset" in life either.
JAJ, once again, I really appreciate your input here, but this is not the info I'm requesting. I do not need to be told to think long and hard about what I may be letting my son in for with regards to his citizenship. As I've said, I am familiar with the citizenship laws of Ireland, Singapore and the UK. So it might be best if we can put that off-topic issue to bed.JAJ wrote:Once again. You really should think hard about what you may be letting your son in for before you register him as a Singapore citizen.
Are you referring to the Long Term Social Visit Pass (LTSVP)? This pass provides no long-term right of residency or access to education or employment. It is simply a long-term holiday visa.JAJ wrote:If the plan is to live in Singapore later on, why not bring him in as a non-citizen on a Social/Visit pass?
Because he will not be an Irish citizen forever.scrudu wrote:Benifa: if your child is an Irish citizen, I don't see why you would have to do anything to register him.
You may be right here JAJ. I think the uniqueness of this case is the bottom line. We shall apply using form EU1 when the time comes. I'll then resurrect this thread and post the outcome.JAJ wrote:Your case is likely to be unique - they are unlikely to see many others where a child is an Irish citizen but the parents want an EEA stamp on a foreign passport.
That would fit in with my suggestion. Both Japanese and Singaporeans are on the Schedule 1 list (Classes of non-nationals not required to be in possession of a valid Irish visa when landing in the State), so do not require a visa to enter Ireland. Perhaps this is the distinction that gets them the 5 year residency permit (4EUFAM) without prior residence in another EEA country?archigabe wrote:Hi Scrudu,
there was another couple on this board a while ago who were British/Japanese.They also received the 5 year residency even though they had not lived in europe before.Seems it's like a lottery whether you get the residency.
benifa wrote: When my son completes his National Service in Singapore at the age of 18, he will have to then formally renounce any and all citizenship other than that of Singapore.
So, imagine this: My son lives all his life in the Ireland, under the status of British / Irish citizen. When he has to renounce these citizenships at 18, he will be a non-EEA citizen. If he wishes to continue residing in Ireland after his completion of NS, he may have a problem, especially if my wife and I are no longer in Ireland by then (we may at that time by living in Singapore). This is why I want my son to be treated by the DoJ as a non-EEA family member from birth. My assumption is that we would need to apply for him using form EU1. At the age of five, we would then apply for permanent residency using form EU3. My son would then be a non-EEA citizen with permanent residence in Ireland, so renunciation of Irish / British citizenship will have little effect on him as far as residency in Ireland is concerned.
How can you explain this then?# EU-Country of worker: U.K.
# Non-EEA country of spouse: U.S.A.
# Date of application for residence card for spouse: September 28th 2006
# Approved, Denied, or Pending: Refused 22nd May 2007
Because he will not be an Irish citizen forever.scrudu wrote:Benifa: if your child is an Irish citizen, I don't see why you would have to do anything to register him.
You may be right here JAJ. I think the uniqueness of this case is the bottom line. We shall apply using form EU1 when the time comes. I'll then resurrect this thread and post the outcome.JAJ wrote:Your case is likely to be unique - they are unlikely to see many others where a child is an Irish citizen but the parents want an EEA stamp on a foreign passport.