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Reply from Spanish Consulate regarding la Directiva 2004/38

Immigration to European countries, don't post UK or Ireland related topics!

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Richard66
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Post by Richard66 » Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:17 pm

I've booked tickets for my Russian wife and me to London. I've applied for no visa, I've applied for no EEA family permit, nothing.

I called the boder police (Immigration) at the Italian airport to ask how they would react. Of course: she can't board... :shock: They did confuse Schengen with the EEA :lol:. I spoke to another policeman after. When he said it was not possible for her to embark he got shirty and said that if I could show him this law that says my wife can board they'll let her on the plane. And I'd have to sign a paper taking full responsibility if they send her back from the UK.

So much for the police.

I have this quote:

"Right of Union Citizens and their family members to move and reside freely within the Union? Guide on how to get the best out of Directive 2004/38/EC"


on page 8, paragraph two it is written:

"Residence card = no visa: Possession of the valid residence card issued by any Member state exempts the family member from the visa requirement in all Member States."

I can't find this guide in Italian. Does anyone know if it exists?

I tried to call Immigration in the UK. 10 mins waiting and no answer, so I hung up.

Dawie
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Post by Dawie » Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:50 am

It's not up to the Italian border police to decide who is allowed to go to the UK or not so I don't know why you're phoning them! The Italian border police are merely there to check if someone is allowed to LEAVE Italy.

It's actually up to the airline checkin staff to decide who boards the plane, so you're better off phoning the airline that you're planning on travelling with.
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

Prawo
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Post by Prawo » Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:27 am

Richard66 wrote:I can't find this guide in Italian. Does anyone know if it exists?
Here is the text of the directive in Italian

SMOOTH OPERATOR
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Post by SMOOTH OPERATOR » Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:07 am

Hi Prawo,

do u please have a link for the directive in Greek and would u suggest that the whole of the 48 pages is printed out or just the pages in question

regards

Docterror
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Post by Docterror » Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:36 am

Prawo wrote:
Richard66 wrote:I can't find this guide in Italian. Does anyone know if it exists?
Here is the text of the directive in Italian
The guide he refers to is "Right of Union Citizens and their family members to move and reside freely within the Union? Guide on how to get the best out of Directive 2004/38/EC" which clearly states that any Mamber State's Residence Card issued under Article 10 will do for otehr Member States, something the Directive does not spell out in so much words.
Jabi

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Post by Docterror » Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:52 am

SMOOTH OPERATOR wrote:Hi Prawo,

do u please have a link for the directive in Greek and would u suggest that the whole of the 48 pages is printed out or just the pages in question

regards
Here is the Directive in Greek.
Jabi

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Post by SMOOTH OPERATOR » Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:45 pm

Thanks Docterror

Richard66
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Post by Richard66 » Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:40 pm

Thank you all so much! Apparently the guide on getting the best out of Directive 2004/38/EC is only in English. Oh well, I'll just need to translate into Italian...
The guide he refers to is "Right of Union Citizens and their family members to move and reside freely within the Union? Guide on how to get the best out of Directive 2004/38/EC" which clearly states that any Mamber State's Residence Card issued under Article 10 will do for otehr Member States, something the Directive does not spell out in so much words.
I thought this was so obvious... No wonder the directive isn't so explicit! Is it the Directive's fault almost all member states took the chance to say the residence card has to be theirs? Since when does a directive interfere with the INTERNAL affairs of another state? :lol:

I sent a letter of complaint to the British Embassy in Rome (registered post), but they have not deigned to answer. Will you believe me, they have not yet managed to give me a list of documents for this so-called EEA FP!

I also sent a letter to the Vice-president of the European Commission, this one also registed. This has been received.

I can't find anywhere the need for fingerprints to be taken? Is this another invention of the FCO that goes against the law?

I did call the airline, Meridiana, and they told me they follow instructions from the Border Police: that Meridiana will only let people board if they have the green light form the police. We'll see.

I thought I'd write a little letter to everyone: from the girl at the ckeck-in to the Immigration Officers, quoting rules and regulalions: Directive, EEA Regulations, Immigration Directorate Instructions and so on. I might also mention the urgency (Yes, to see my father, who is 86 and not normally resident in the UK or the EU for that matter), That I exercise treaty rights, what happens if the rules are not followed... Do you think this is a good idea?

Richard66
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Post by Richard66 » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:03 am

I've contacted the airline and I've written a letter, quoting Directive, case-law and Immigration Regulations (and the Guide I mentioned and so on), and requesting that my wife be allowed to board as planned. I sent them a fax with all attached documents, such as our residence cards, international marriage certificate, passports, Italian residence certificates, my Italian ID and so on. This I also sent by registed post this morning. I thought we might go to the airport tomorrow or Wednesday to talk to the heaad of the check-in. The letter seems convincing, let's hope so! I could even post it here for everyone's benefit, only it's in Italian and no one will understand it!

I even have my father's backing on this procedure, which he considers ridiculous: he's offered to pay for the tickets!

Unbelieveable as it is, the British Embassy still has not been able to tell me which documents my wife needs for the EEA FP! :lol:

freshprince
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Post by freshprince » Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:38 pm

Way to go Richard!give it the old college try. :wink:

Richard66
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Post by Richard66 » Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:03 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: !!!!!!

Incredible!!! I sent that fax in the morning to the airline and... AFTER lunch I found an e-mail from the big man in ther check-in who says all is well and that (implied this) we can board without any problems! He also asked exactly when we will be going so he can follow this personally.

I did mention I might sue them if we were not allowed to board. I wonder if this has anything to do with this alacrity... :wink:

mym
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Post by mym » Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:23 pm

Keep going Richard!

Some details of the Eind case can be found at http://tinyurl.com/3ym6l9 btw.

http://ec.europa.eu/employment_social/f ... dex_en.htm is interesting bedtime reading...
--
Mark Y-M
London

Richard66
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Post by Richard66 » Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:00 pm

Chaos!

Having bought the tickets because the airline said my wife can board, the airline check-in head called me today to say my wife can't. The man told me the ITALIAN POLICE will not let her board, because she doesn't have a visa! I asked him to give me this in writing, which he refused to do, merely suggesting I might like to get a refund. He told me, among other stupid things, that what the immigration officer says is more important than what the Directive says. I seem to remember the Directive says that no member state can stop a union citizen and his family member to leave to go to another member state. This man called the British Embassy who insists she needs a visa or an EEA or whatever INDEPENDENTLY of the fact I live in the UK or in Italy. Apparently Surinder Singh and Regulation 9 of the Immigration (EEA) Regulations 2006/1003 has been revoked by the Embassy in Rome.

The British Solvit wrote me again:

am sorry for the delay in responding to your further e-mail.

Taking your second point first, Article 5.2 of Directive 2004/38/EC provides that the possession of a residence permit shall exempt a family member of an EU national from the visa requirement. Many Member States, including the United Kingdom, interpret this requirement as meaning that the holder of a UK residence permit, for example, is exempt from the requirement to obtain a UK visa. At this present time, there is no EU-wide format for the residence permit and so it is not intended to be a document that should be recognised outside of the country in which it is issued. If your wife holds an Italian residence permit, this is relevant only for her return to Italy, it will not exempt her from the requirement to obtain a visa to enter another Member State.

The summary of the Surinder Singh Judgement contains the following:
A national of a Member State might be deterred from leaving his country of origin in order to pursue an activity as an employed or self-employed person in the territory of another Member State if, on returning to the Member State of which he is a national in order to pursue an activity there as an employed or self-employed person, his conditions were not at least equivalent to those which he would enjoy under Community law in the territory of another Member State. He would in particular be deterred from so doing if his spouse and children were not also permitted to enter and reside in the territory of that State under conditions at least equivalent to those granted by Community law in the territory of another Member State.

Article 9 of the EEA Regs require the citizen to be returning to the United Kingdom, wording taken directly from the Judgement summary which requires the citizen to be returning to pursue an activity as an employed or self employed person. The Judgement takes precedence as it establishes what is the legal requirement. We do not consider a visit or a holiday to be the same as returning to pursue an economic activity, and so any application on behalf of your wife should be made in accordance with UK immigration requirements.

Now, where in Regulation 9 does it say I need to be returning to work? Since when is case-law above the regulation, if it dates from BEFORE the Directive? What about the inital right of residence of 3 months? The article is written in THE PRESENT TENSE! "...is working in the Member state..."

The Directive talks about the Residence card. Solvit tries to tell me The UK regulations are ABOVE the Directive, that the Italian residence card is not valid because the EU doesn't have a uniform format! Stuff and nonsese!!!! All other documents from the Commission say the contrary!

I'm desperate. Maybe we should take the train after all and then the ferry.

All day I've been calling Solvit in Rome and sending them floods of faxes to see how to solve this. They don't seem to know what to do either.

The chap from the airline gave me this link, which seems to me about 3 years old:

http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj/fr ... try_en.htm

In support for his view.

Dawie
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Post by Dawie » Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:23 pm

Having bought the tickets because the airline said my wife can board, the airline check-in head called me today to say my wife can't. The man told me the ITALIAN POLICE will not let her board, because she doesn't have a visa! I asked him to give me this in writing, which he refused to do, merely suggesting I might like to get a refund. He told me, among other stupid things, that what the immigration officer says is more important than what the Directive says. I seem to remember the Directive says that no member state can stop a union citizen and his family member to leave to go to another member state. This man called the British Embassy who insists she needs a visa or an EEA or whatever INDEPENDENTLY of the fact I live in the UK or in Italy. Apparently Surinder Singh and Regulation 9 of the Immigration (EEA) Regulations 2006/1003 has been revoked by the Embassy in Rome.
I would love to know since when the Italian border police have been doing the UK's immigration dirty work!!! I have never heard of a country's immigration officials enforcing the immigration laws of another country before (except for the Schengen agreement). It is up to UK immigration officials to decide who enters the UK or not, not Italian border police! That is infuriating, especially if you consider your average Italian border policeman is probably as think as two bricks.
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

Richard66
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Post by Richard66 » Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:29 pm

I'd say as thick as three bricks, not two.

It seems to me Airline, border police, Embassy and solvit have no idea what they are talking about. The fact is, they've ruined my holiday, especially as I want to take my wife to meet my father, who is now 86 years' old.

Richard66
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Post by Richard66 » Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:16 pm

Another note from British Solvit:

We would regard the important part of Article 9(2)(a) as 'was so residing before returning to the UK'. That you are visiting and not returning to the UK if you come for a short break. Admittedly you could misrepresent the intention of your visit to the Consulate, but the UK position remains that you have to be returning to the UK to take up an economic activity to be eligible under the Surinder Singh Judgement. Otherwise you are considered to be a UK national, with UK rights and entitlements.

How partial can one be?

Now the chap from the airline wrote me to say my wife CAN board, but he's praying on his knees we won't go and is trying his best to convince me to apply for a visa. Just out of curiosity, Im posting the list of documents the British Embassy is requesting:

DEPENDANTS OF EEA NATIONALS (01/04/07)


If you are a dependant of a national of the European Economic Area (see list below*), you can apply for an EEA family Permit, free of charge, if you are travelling with, or joining the EEA national of whom you are a dependant. Applicants must be legally resident in Italy.

* Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria (**), Czech Republic, Cyprus, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Republic of Ireland, Italy, Latonia, Lichtenstein, Lithuania, Luxemburg, Malta, Norway, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania (**), Slovak Republic, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, United Kingdom, Hungary.

All applicants must complete the online form and produce the following documentation. All documents must be originals, unless otherwise specified. You should also produce a copy of your permit of stay and marriage certificate.


Passport or travel document valid for at least six months. Applicants who hold machine readable passports: if there is an error in the details on the machine readable page, you must obtain a new passport before we can accept your application;

Italian permit of stay (permesso di soggiorno) if you normally reside in Italy OR, if you are temporarily in Italy, a valid Italian/Schengen visa to cover the purpose of your temporary stay. Copy of your previous Italian residence permit (paper format) if you currently hold an electronic version;

Two recent photos;

Civil marriage certificate (if you were married outside Italy you must produce a certificate from your local commune confirming your marriage has been registered with the Italian authorities);

Identity document of spouse/person on whom you are dependant (ID card or passport);

Birth certificates for any children travelling, showing both parents’ details;

Evidence of sufficient personal financial means to maintain both/all of you in the UK (personal bank statements last three months/savings book). Third-party financial guarantees are not acceptable;

Letter from your spouse’s/person on whom you are dependant’s employer giving details of length of contract and specific dates of their authorised leave, and last three payslips in original;

Letter from your employer with last three payslips if you work, or letter from university/school if you study;

Declaration from the EEA national confirming they will be travelling to UK with you or that they are living in the UK and are inviting you to join/visit them, how long you will stay in UK, and that they will be present in the United Kingdom with you throughout the whole of your stay in the UK; that they will return to Italy with you at the end of your stay.



You may be required to present further documentation and/or to come personally to the Visa Section of the British Embassy in Rome for an interview.

Nice reading.

freshprince
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Post by freshprince » Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:26 pm

Richard Richard.

That sweet talking lassie at British Solvit wouldnt spit on you if you were on fire without checking the UK regs first.I did warn you.In anycase,you are not going to get any official endorsement by any UK authority on this matter,the lines are drawn as far as this matter is concerned and the issue is in court so its somewhat Sub judice which means civil servants can effect an unwillingness to preempt what the courts would decide on the matter.

The flap up with the airline and the suggestion by the Italian Police makes a very interesting addition for your dossier at the European Commision where you should send a succint summary of your experiences thus far,thereby lending weight to the complaints thus far from others experiencing exactly the same thing.Pressure group dynamics and all that jazz.

Ultimately(Lord knows when)the "heresies"of Directive 2004/38/EC will be washed clean in the pool of ink that is the ECJ's signature.Until then scream "bloody murder" :D

Richard66
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Post by Richard66 » Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:43 pm

Yes, yes, Fresh Prince, I knew this about UK Solvit. She's great: she can read and answer an-mail in 10 minutes. Wow!

BUT

I'm in touch with Solvit in Rome and Solvit in Rome is a different matter! I've called them maybe 10 times in the last two days and (only today) sent them 3 faxes, each 10 pages long, with all laws and regulations UK and not.

The chap from the airline blinked. Now he appologises for giving me wrong information (about the police, I imagine) and praying on his knees we won't try to board!

Here are all the e-mails he sent me, none of which I have replied to yet:

No 1:

Thank you for your fax.

Have spoken with local Police and all docs seems to be ok.

May i ask you the departure date just to be sure to follow up your case properly.

best regards

E-mail 2:

reference our phone call today and my e-mail yesterday i just want you to advise that only the local Police has the right to examine all the documents and verify if she is elegible to leave Italy and enter UK or not without Visa. I used the term "seems to be ok" for this reason .This does not mean that the Police will let her fly on thu 28th and i have no power to discuss a decision taken by the immigration Police.
I don't understand indeed the position of the UK Consulate on this matter. I mean If EU directive has been acknoledge by UK why they have not issued a temporary Visa for your wife.

Best regards

e-mail 3:

have spoken to British Emabssy a few minutes ago and the were very clear on the matter.
She needs EEA Family member Visa and all information on how to apply are decribed on British Embassy web site.
Also maybe you would like to have a look at the following link which describe - in flull - how the regulation applies in this case.
http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj/fr ... try_en.htm

There is no problem to refund the tickets in full. The procedure is very simple and can be done without problems.

let me know
Best regards

E-mail 4:

this is the last e-mail i send on the matter.

I apologise for having sent a wrong information about your question.

Nevertheless, once again, Your Embassy has confirmed me that your wife will need a visa to enter UK. All relevant info on how to apply (also online) and why the visa is necessary are described in full in the links below:

http://www.britishembassy.gov.uk/servle ... 2838904623

http://www.britishembassy.gov.uk/servle ... 7335957384

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/servlet/UKVis ... tion=Italy

Once again i confirm you that your tickets can be refunded or changed without problems. The autorisation will be given to your Travel agency.

The passenger is responsible of his own travel documents in full. Sincerly i hope you will follow the rules given by of Your government and apply for the Visa.

I remain at your disposal for any further info you may require.

regards

I won't answer till I talk to Solvit in Rome tomorrow. Let this chap get fidgety! :lol:

Dawie
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Post by Dawie » Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:53 pm

Bottom line is, as far as the British are concerned, no visa-national will ever be allowed into the UK without entry clearance from a British embassy.
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

Richard66
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Post by Richard66 » Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:02 pm

Dawie, are you telling us they'll send my wife back, then? What about the stories I've read that people have made it?

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Post by Prawo » Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:06 pm

Dawie wrote:Bottom line is, as far as the British are concerned, no visa-national will ever be allowed into the UK without entry clearance from a British embassy.
The example of my parents in law however proves you are wrong.

Richard66
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Post by Richard66 » Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:14 pm

As I said...

The only thing that worries me is the airline. It's really not their quarrel this one and I can understand their reluctance in transporting us, principally if they risk (in their view) a fine.

Does anyone think it might be better to get the Paris-London train?

Richard66
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Post by Richard66 » Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:46 pm

And, of course, I've just spoken to my dear cousin in Paris, who will be delighted to see us.

Docterror
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Post by Docterror » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:13 pm

Does anyone think it might be better to get the Paris-London train?
It could well be, as from what I recall, the immigration checks by the British for the Eurostar is in Paris and not here. Will let someone else verify.
Jabi

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Post by Prawo » Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:03 am

Richard66 wrote:And, of course, I've just spoken to my dear cousin in Paris, who will be delighted to see us.
From Italy to France is not the problem.

As of 2008 especially Ireland and the UK remain a pain in the mule.

Solvit and the help desk of the European Commission are not much of a help (they cannot read questions properly as well as their own directives).

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