Marriage breakdown

[Nshah12]

Hi guys. Just need some advice.

I got married to a Pakistani national, fell pregnant by the time I returned to the uk. Had the baby and started work straight away to apply for his spouse visa. That got accepted and he entered the uk in January 2014 but as soon as he got here things changed drastically. He wasn't interested in me or our son, he was speaking to other women and I felt it was unacceptable. He then packed his bags in May and left. I wrote to the home office during this time and informed them of the change in circumstances. They replied saying he will not be granted flr on the base of your marriage but can by all means try and apply for another visa to stay. He has now come back and said he wants a visa as a father to our child and wants to see him every week. Obviously I can't and wont stop him but I know his intentions are JUST the visa. I just need to know where I stand as a British national, I don't care if he's granted a stay in the country or not but I would rather he left seeing as he hasn't acted like a father and our son is 3 this month! My son doesn't know who he is. He calls him uncle. Do I have any options?? I worked very hard for him to be with us.


Thank you in advance

[Amber]

This has happened before, will likely be granted leave if the SoS/Court believe he has contact/is actively involved with the child. I'm afraid it's sad that people use children like this, but it happens. He must have had quite a nerve to start chatting to other women straight away.

[Mauser1905]

I am baffled with the OP's decision making. Without testing the person enough got pregnant. The man is free to pack bags and run after another one. You will have to struggle looking after the baby by yourself after struggling to bring the man here. were there not worthy men already in the UK?

Feel very sorry for the baby and OP.

[Wanderer]

I am baffled with the OP's decision making. Without testing the person enough got pregnant. The man is free to pack bags and run after another one. You will have to struggle looking after the baby by yourself after struggling to bring the man here. were there not worthy men already in the UK?

Feel very sorry for the baby and OP.

Not wishing to pile on the OP who has worries enough, but this is why I campaign for tougher checks for marriage visas, and sterner conditions including some sort of bond or charge if the spouse goes AWOL does dirty deeds like in this case.

For the OP, there's not a lot she can do, sounds like he's done his homework and knows how to play the system.

[Mauser1905]

Not wishing to pile on the OP who has worries enough, but this is why I campaign for tougher checks for marriage visas, and sterner conditions including some sort of bond or charge if the spouse goes AWOL does dirty deeds like in this case.

For the OP, there's not a lot she can do, sounds like he's done his homework and knows how to play the system.

Wanderer,
There is very limited that can be done to replace common sense, in regards to more tougher checks etc. Even if you were to cross road you would make sure its safe by looking over all sides. Marrying, getting pregnant these are very very critical decisions in life.

OP,
Try moving on, rebuild life. Enjoy the time with the baby as much as you can. You can't change the past but can learn from the mistake and amend. At least you maybe able to enjoy life with your baby.

[Obie]

Hi guys. Just need some advice.

I got married to a Pakistani national, fell pregnant by the time I returned to the uk. Had the baby and started work straight away to apply for his spouse visa. That got accepted and he entered the uk in January 2014 but as soon as he got here things changed drastically. He wasn't interested in me or our son, he was speaking to other women and I felt it was unacceptable. He then packed his bags in May and left. I wrote to the home office during this time and informed them of the change in circumstances. They replied saying he will not be granted flr on the base of your marriage but can by all means try and apply for another visa to stay. He has now come back and said he wants a visa as a father to our child and wants to see him every week. Obviously I can't and wont stop him but I know his intentions are JUST the visa. I just need to know where I stand as a British national, I don't care if he's granted a stay in the country or not but I would rather he left seeing as he hasn't acted like a father and our son is 3 this month! My son doesn't know who he is. He calls him uncle. Do I have any options?? I worked very hard for him to be with us.


Thank you in advance

There are many things you can do to supreme such an application. Refuse access on the basis that he has no good intention for the child and only seeking access in order to secure visa. Refuse to supply letter to the Home Office on his behalf confirming he has access to the child and refuse to give him the child's British passport.

That way, you make it extremely impossible for him to get further leave on the basis of the child , as he will be unable to discharge the evidential burden.

If he is working. Try and make sure you drain him through the child support system .

[Amber]

Far from impossible for him to get leave Obie, easily get a copy of the child's Birth certificate. Father will have parental responsibility (assuming the Father is named on the BC). Refusing a letter is unlikely to make any difference. And do you really want to drag this through the courts?

[Obie]

From experience in doing countless applications for parent of British citizens, I can tell you with relative ease, that simply providing a birth certificate without more, is insufficient in securing leave under that route.

It may go to court in future, and things may change , but at present the status quo is such that this chap will not succeed without the support of the OP.

I find it odd , but that is the situation.

I have had to get a person to get a SAR , showing he. had submitted his wife and child's passport before, and it was accepted by Home Office, and i am looking on JR on the basis that the test is balance of probabilities, and that is met.

Going to court, well it is the guy that will incur huge bill, with the abolition of Legal aid, and the lady will not have to do much at all.

[Mauser1905]

Obie,

damage is already done. mere non-co-operation for supporting documents for his further leave will have one weak point and that would be if OP wishes to avail divorce without wasting too much time she would need co-operation from him.

[Zack1234]

Hi,

I am no expert but I think Obie is right and OP still stands a chance.

She can prove that he has no interest in the child as he left them both just after 4 months of arriving. He wasn't present at the time of child's birth neither attempted to come on a family visitor visa to be with the family.

If he is not working she can prove that he can't look after the kid and will rely on benefits.

As Obie pointed out he won't have access to Legal Aid so he will be drained by solicitor fee and might give up eventually.

As I said I am no expert but she still stands chances and there is always a way out.

[Obie]

I make it a point of duty not to help people who seek to destroy an estranged spouses visa, but on the basis of the conduct of OP's estranged husband, I am prepared to help her in anyway i legally can, to get him out.

He had the audacity to be speaking to another woman in the presence of the OP. How obnoxious and ghastly.

He showed complete disregard for both of them, and now want to stay on the basis of them, as if he has an entitlement. Utterly absurd.

[Mauser1905]

I make it a point of duty not to help people who seek to destroy an estranged spouses visa, but on the basis of the conduct of OP's estranged husband, I am prepared to help her in anyway i legally can, to get him out.

He had the audacity to be speaking to another woman in the presence of the OP. How obnoxious and ghastly.

He showed complete disregard for both of them, and now want to stay on the basis of them, as if he has an entitlement. Utterly absurd.

There is no argument to what you say. Concur same.

IMHO getting the chancer husband out of the country is not the solution but getting him out of the OP's life may be a real solution. A clean cut is essential for OP's personal life to move forward.

[Amber]

I’m sorry Obie but I am not sure who is telling you this?

A Birth Certificate can establish both the Nationality of the child and the applicant’s status as the child’s father. I agree that a Birth Certificate may be less useful if the Father is not named on the certificate and/or the certificate does not establish the child’s nationality. Neither of which appear to be an issue in this case.

Now, with regards to contact and Legal Aid, it is simply not true that it will cost a fortune without legal aid. The Children and Families Act 2014 established child arrangements orders. The Practice Directive was streamlined with the addition of the Child Arrangements Programme. This has created an out of court dispute resolution system and where out of court resolution is not practicable, court proceedings are expedited. I shall not bore you with details, but in essence, unless there are safeguarding issues, of which there does not appear to be in this case, a Father will have little difficulty obtaining contact. In most cases an interim decision can be made within 6 weeks. With the absence of domestic violence, controlling behaviour or coercive behaviour, a CAO is unlikely to fail, with relatively low outlining expense.

In fact, contrary to your statement, it may be the OP who ends up with significant expenses under the CAP 2014, defending a CAO.

Such a case, in my experience, is far from impossible, in fact, quite the opposite. A caseworker must act methodically to challenge restraint placed by the SoS, indeed, the use of the Tribunal is often required and successful.

[Obie]

First I don't agree with you, that a birth certificate establishes a child's nationality at all. I am unsure where you got that from. Both long and short birth certificate don't establish a child's nationality.

Longer version establishes the parent details. Nationality is determined by the 1981 act alone, subject to the parents demonstrating that on a balance of probabilities, their child is a British by virtue of Section 1 (1) or (2) of the 1981 act.

It will make the requirements for parents to provide their passport details or evidence that they were settled at the time of their child's birth otiose if the Birth Certificates establishes that .

I accept a child born before commencement on the 1/01/83 , will have no difficulty in establishing nationality on the basis of birth certificate alone , but that is where it end.

I find it odd that me and you are having this kind on debate on this issues. I thought those days are long gone.

In regards to the other matter, I strongly believe the mother has lots of card, and i believe the court will not force a mother to give access to a father who has no positive interest for his child , has not paid any positive contribution to the child . The whole conduct of the father speak for itself .

I will not go into debt regarding the contact more that I have advised OP. I am very confident that given the age of the child and if OP does not wants her to see him, court will not force her.

The legal aid issue I will discuss it in greater details .

[Amber]

I said a Birth Certificate can establish nationality. A decent caseworker can and should use a Birth Certificate to try and establish a child's nationality in the absence of a Passport. This Child is British because of the Mother, of course the Birth Certificate can help to establish that!

If you care to browse this forum you will see a number of cases, that bare remarkable similarity to the OP where the Father was granted leave in near exactly the same circumstances. It appears to me you have a lack of experience in child contact family matters and that is perhaps leading towards this bizarre impossibility stance.

[Obie]

I said a Birth Certificate can establish nationality. A decent caseworker can and should use a Birth Certificate to try and establish a child's nationality in the absence of a Passport. This Child is British because of the Mother, of course the Birth Certificate can help to establish that!

If you care to browse this forum you will see a number of cases, that bare remarkable similarity to the OP where the Father was granted leave in near exactly the same circumstances. It appears to me you have a lack of experience in child contact family matters and that is perhaps leading towards this bizarre impossibility stance.

Well I have no difficulty in making concessions where necessary. I have already made concessions in regards to the fact that a child born before 1st January 1983 will be able to demonstrate on a balance of probabilities British nationality on the basis of a birth certificate alone.

Not quite sure it is in reality a concession, as that was not an issue of contention. But if it was, then i concede that point.

However i have no difficulty in discarding your assertion in its entirety, that a casework should on the basis of a Birth Certificate alone, demonstrate nationality of a child without more. That is a totally baseless assertion.

Unless of course a Caseworkers are meant to be psychics aswell.


Even in a matter which i dealt with, where the father had provided the wife and child passport in a previous application , the Home Office is bizarrely contesting they have no proof of nationality, although i aspire to get this resolved in the not too distance future at the courts, based on the SAR documents i had obtained.

The suggestion that a Birth certificate can be accepted as proof, indicates a lack of knowledge as to the operation of the UKVI.

Amber i have no difficult in conceding that you may have a much better wealth of knowledge on child custody or access matter.

I am prepared to make concessions on that also.

However i have deep-seated unease in making any concession on the Birth Certificate matters.

I know which party i am in support of in this case. I cannot support a guy who decided to take advantage of he woman he claimed to love, before the ink of his footprint has dried on the floor of the UK.

Seeking to use a child he has no care or interest in, to further his stay in the UK.

[Zack1234]

I know which party i am in support of in this case. I cannot support a guy who decided to take advantage of he woman he claimed to love, before the ink of his footprint has dried on the floor of the UK.

Seeking to use a child he has no care or interest in, to further his stay in the UK.

Exactly my point, be it UKVI or court he has not shown any interest to wife or kid. A genuine husband or father would leave his wife or kid just after 4 months of reunion after 4 years. This can be easily proved that he has no interest in the family and he only came back to OP just to tell her that he will apply as father, not to visit the child.

I side with Obie in this case. But, OP didn't come back after posting the question so I wonder if she would want to take this further.

[Greenie]

I hate to play devils advocate but I am bit perplexed about the direction in which this thread has gone. The Op has clearly said that she 'can't and won't' stop the father from seeing the child and I think this is admirable of her, yet others are actively trying to encourage her to prevent her son from seeing his father.

Firstly we only have the OP's version of events, I think it odd that we have a moderator offering to help the mother ensure the father cannot stay here. Why? Granted from what the op has said the guy has let her down and the child. But perhaps he should be given the chance to form a relationship with his son for the child's benefit if nothing else, after all the child's best interest should be at the forefront here. Ok so he's not done a great job of being a dad so far, but if he has to leave now the child may never have the opportunity to form a genuine relationship with his father. Yes if that happens it wil primarily be dads fault but as difficult as it is for her especially if she thinks his intentions are only about the visa, in the absence of anything to suggest he is a risk to his child, the child has the right to get to know his father. If the father lets him down again then he will only have himself to blame, but if mum blocks contact and dad has to leave, then in the future the child may place some blame on the mother. For her child's sake and for her own, facilitating contact seems the best way forward here.

[Zack1234]

I just need to know where I stand as a British national, I don't care if he's granted a stay in the country or not but I would rather he left seeing as he hasn't acted like a father.

OP has clearly mentioned that she would prefer if he left OP and child alone.

Greenie, you're right that a father must be given the chance to build a relationship with his child and we have only heard one side of the story. However, the chance if given to a person who really has good intentions towards the child. And its like he wasn't interested in his wife and he was interested in the red passport but he played along just to be here. And he is doing the same now. He will play along and once he has established himself he will repeat it again.

If a father wasn't there for the child for the first 3 year and when they reunited why would he leave in 4 months? I don't see a genuine father doing that.

[Obie]

I am not sure there is anything wrong with my position. However you are entitled to your opinion like everyone else.

This guy within 3 months of entering the UK started taking to another woman and showing no interest in his child or the woman he claims he intend on staying with permanently.

He has deceived the immigration officer, as the purpose of being given the visa is to live permanently with a spouse who is present and settled in the UK.

If he has genuine intention for the child , then fine. However he does not seem too. He is putting the woman through this , inorder to fulfill his selfish ambition of staying in the UK.

Surely that cannot be in child's best interest to have a father who keeping visiting him or her until he obtained ILR and then disappear.

It is best and less painful for the child to not build a relationship, that will be discontinued once he has secured ILR.

That is my view, and I am sure everyone is entitled to theirs.

[Zack1234]

I am not sure there is anything wrong with my position. However you are entitled to your opinion like everyone else.

This guy within 3 months of entering the UK started taking to another woman and showing no interest in his child or the woman he claims he intend on staying with permanently.

He has deceived the immigration officer, as the purpose of being given the visa is to live permanently with a spouse who is present and settled in the UK.

If he has genuine intention for the child , then fine. However he does not seem too. He is putting the woman through this , inorder to fulfill his selfish ambition of staying in the UK.

Surely that cannot be in child's best interest to have a father who keeping visiting him or her until he obtained ILR and then disappear.

It is best and less painful for the child to not build a relationship, that will be discontinued once he has secured ILR.

That is my view, and I am sure everyone is entitled to theirs.

I made the same point and I completely agree with you.

[hopeful2003]

As others have already pointed out; we have only heard one side of the story. However, I want to make a general comment that sometimes some women think British Passport is a passport to heaven (no pun intended). They sometimes want to use their status as UK Nationals to disrepect and lord it over their husbands. They use it as a sort of blackmail for their men to submit to their whims and caprices. It is not always that women are victims!

[Nshah12]

Thankyou everyone for taking time out to give me your opinions and your advice. Much appreciated.

I'll just run through a few things so you have a better understanding of the situation as of now.


After he left I heard nothing from him, but I received a few calls from his uncle who is a solicitor (has his own firm etc)

My family then went to our local Islamic head and asked him to get in touch with my husband to find out what he actually wants! My parents have tried contacting him but he is nothing but rude and abusive over the phone and wouldn't come to any agreement with them. By agreement I mean to sit down n discuss the matters. So in December he finally agreed to come over and discuss. My only concern was why have you made no effort for our child? No answer.
So it was decided that he needs to start building a relationship with him. He has been twice since before Christmas.

Around 3weeks ago he received a letter from the home office - I don't know what the letter said as he refused to tell me. He then got his uncle to ring me and threatened me with we will drag you to court you kept a father away from his son for 4 years. BEAR IN MIND, I tried very hard to keep my family together hence why i called him here and even visited when the baby was one years old.


A few days later I received a letter from some solicitors calling me in for a mediation. Which I went to yesterday. He did not want to talk about the future of our relationship, all he said was I want to see my son, the mediator asked him (on my request) if he's trying to collect proof so he can apply for a visa on our sons basis. And he agreed and said yes. The mediator has told him to see our son once every week for two hours, and even told him she hopes his intention changes.


As for the person above who thinks women are not always victims, I completely agree. But I wish men would man up when they have children and responsibilities so no one has to threaten them to wake up and realise what is infront of them. The British passport means as much to me as it means to you, I have lived with this man for 9 months in his own homeland, but he didn't leave me till he knew he didn't need me anymore.



I have another mediation in May. And yes guys he is working, full time at a retail store, I've demanded for child support as I've been made redundant - not the best time but better things ahead hopefully.


Also, we are only islamicly married, but he has refused to give me a divorce till next year (his visa expires in july2016)


I am hoping for the best. I don't want to drag my child through courts, but if I have to fight for my child and his rights I will go to any extent.


Thankyou for being supportive.


Nighat x

[Mauser1905]

the mediator asked him (on my request) if he's trying to collect proof so he can apply for a visa on our sons basis. And he agreed and said yes. The mediator has told him to see our son once every week for two hours, and even told him she hopes his intention changes.

And yes guys he is working, full time at a retail store, I've demanded for child support as I've been made redundant - not the best time but better things ahead hopefully.


Also, we are only islamicly married, but he has refused to give me a divorce till next year (his visa expires in july2016)


I am hoping for the best. I don't want to drag my child through courts, but if I have to fight for my child and his rights I will go to any extent.

Thankyou for being supportive.
Nighat x

As somebody else already said your man has done his homework or rather his solicitor uncle facilitating this.
I anticipate the reason for delaying the divorce in next year is to try coerce you into providing him support for his extension and in return he gives you divorce.

Right now he also know your weak point and that's child. And you have made very clear you will fight for the child.

Legal experts may be able to comment on this one; what if you propose legally for him to take child with him and you apply contact order. This exactly goes against what the man and his solicitor uncle planning for.

Whether I am biased or not, the man in this story clearly is NOT acting in the best interests of the child.

[Mauser1905]

But I wish men would man up when they have children and responsibilities so no one has to threaten them to wake up and realise what is infront of them.
Nighat x

Very very well said.
I have witnessed such scenarios first hand where entire family has suffered because of this.