Visa free travel for Residence Card holder Case refer to ECJ

[tebee]

But if it's a card issued to a relative of that counties national then strictly speaking it not a card issued under directive 10 although it may indeed be exactly the same card.

I wonder how UK border control is going to treat this ? I suspect they will have to accept all these cards anyway as it will be hard to prove why it was issued in each case.

The alternative is theywill have to reject all same country cards unless the bearer can bring proof of why it was issued, and I can see that being taken to court pretty quickly. The Airlines rules don't seem to discriminate about who issued it and why.

Anyway I'm going to get back to finishing my packing as we are off to try this at 7am in the morning - we should reach the UK around 8pm.

[alazani28]

But if it's a card issued to a relative of that counties national then strictly speaking it not a card issued under directive 10 although it may indeed be exactly the same card.

I wonder how UK border control is going to treat this ? I suspect they will have to accept all these cards anyway as it will be hard to prove why it was issued in each case.

The alternative is theywill have to reject all same country cards unless the bearer can bring proof of why it was issued, and I can see that being taken to court pretty quickly. The Airlines rules don't seem to discriminate about who issued it and why.

Anyway I'm going to get back to finishing my packing as we are off to try this at 7am in the morning - we should reach the UK around 8pm.

Good Luck on that, Are you traveling via airline or by sea?

[rosebead]

@twhyonline, I find that very surprising. The free movement Directive does allow Member States to be more generous if they want to be, although I don't know if the EU when drafting the Directive meant it to be that generous. If this is true, I can't see the UK being happy about that. I wonder if they know that Article 10 residence cards are being awarded to family members whose EEA sponsors have never exercised Treaty rights!

[tebee]

Ferry, Calais to Dover - have to go Paris first to pick up my step-son who is flying back from university to join us - he has French residence card too.

Have papers showing my business here was registered in 2009 that it paid tax last year and that my family is covered on French health insurance. Also birth certificates and our marriage papers with translations, though some are to French some to English. Don't think I should need anything else.

Just hope my old French car last's the trip !

[twhyonline]

On the Spanish legislation it clearly states that same law is been applied for their family member and that of other EU member state.that is to say that Spanish Government considers Spanish nationals as EU Residence Citizen in their own country while issuing Residence Card to their Non-EU family members.it clearly states that at the back of the Residence Card been given to their family member Name,Identification number of the EU National under the subhead( RESIDENTE )(Meaning Residence)so what im trying to say is that these cards are been issued the same way under European law in Spain.I don't know of other EU Countries,but you cant simply tell the difference.
To prove my point further I've got friends in the same situation whom have been using these cards to travel to the UK since Feb with no problem before UK made the official announcement yesterday of accepting residence card of Non -EU family member Issued In Member State.I am due to travel to the UK next week for a Short Visit. I will keep yall informed..

[rastaripples]

Something yall need to know some European Countries follow the free movement directives(EU Law)when issuing Family Residence Card to Non-EU Nationals Married to both Nationals Of that Country and Family member of Nationals Of Other EU Member States i.e Spain
The Wordings at the back of the Card reads the Same (Family Member of European Citizen) The point here is once your card is been issued Under Such Directive Article. 10 or Article 20 you are visa exempted to visit the Uk.
you can easily tell when a card is been issued under domestic law it wouldn't bear those wordings it is normally right of residence i.e France ,UK Non -EU Nationals Married to Nationals of these Countries are normally issued with Residence Card Under Domestic Law.
So Forget About the EU Nationals exercising their treaty Right else where before their Family member can be issued a residence card under the free movement directives as some EU countries normally issue such card witout going thru all that , the answer to whether a card is valid or not depends on the directive adapted by the country in which it was issued, like I said earlier,Spain issues same residence card to people married to their nationals and family members of the nationals of other EU Member state (REGIMEN COMUNITARIO)and these is because the have adapted the free movement directive (EU Law) When issuing documents to people married to their nationals and other EU member State Nationals.

EXACTLY MY POINT AS TO REGARDS TO THIS SUBJECT MATTER WITH DISCUSSIONS HELD WITH CERTAIN FORUM MEMBERS YESTERDAY. GUESS THE PROOF WILL BE IN THE PUDDING WITH REGARDS TO YOUR VISIT TO THE UK WEEK.
DO KEEP US INFORMED.

[rosebead]

@twhyonline, I've read up on it and it appears that you are right. How curious! The Czech Republic must also be equally generous in that case, as it seems that it might be the case that rastaripples obtained his permit in the same way. That's generous of these countries to apply EU law instead of domestic law on the spouses of their nationals. I only wish the UK was so generous! They have a very harsh approach, trying to keep all non-EU family members out, including those of British sponsors who have actually exercised Treaty rights! The UK still attempt to deny even those ones their EU rights.

[rastaripples]

But if it's a card issued to a relative of that counties national then strictly speaking it not a card issued under directive 10 although it may indeed be exactly the same card.

I wonder how UK border control is going to treat this ? I suspect they will have to accept all these cards anyway as it will be hard to prove why it was issued in each case.

The alternative is theywill have to reject all same country cards unless the bearer can bring proof of why it was issued, and I can see that being taken to court pretty quickly. The Airlines rules don't seem to discriminate about who issued it and why.

Anyway I'm going to get back to finishing my packing as we are off to try this at 7am in the morning - we should reach the UK around 8pm.

Hi mate, i might be getting it wrong but where in article 10 does is mention exercising treaty rights in another member state with regards to issuance of RESIDENCE CARDS????
CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG, MY UNDERSTANDING IS ARTICLE 10 IS A DIRECTIVE TO ALL E.U MEMEBERS STATES REGARDING RESIDENCE CARDS REGARDLESS OF IF ONE DECIDES TO EXERCISE TREATY RIGHTS OR NOT
Article 10
Issue of residence cards
1. The right of residence of family members of a Union citizen who are not nationals of a Member
State shall be evidenced by the issuing of a document called "Residence card of a family member of
a Union citizen" no later than six months from the date on which they submit the application. A
certificate of application for the residence card shall be issued immediately.
2. For the residence card to be issued, Member States shall require presentation of the following
documents:
(a) a valid passport;
(b) a document attesting to the existence of a family relationship or of a registered partnership;
(c) the registration certificate or, in the absence of a registration system, any other proof of
residence in the host Member State of the Union citizen whom they are accompanying or
joining;

SO I DONT GET THIS WHOLE DISCUSSION ABOUT RESIDENCE CARDS HAVE TO BE ISSUED BY ANOTHER MEMBER STATE FOR IT TO BE A DIRECTIVE 10 RESISIDENCE CARD.
FURTHER PROOF IS THAT OF SPAIN AND I KNOW THE CZECH REPUBLIC

[rosebead]

SO I DONT GET THIS WHOLE DISCUSSION ABOUT RESIDENCE CARDS HAVE TO BE ISSUED BY ANOTHER MEMBER STATE FOR IT TO BE A DIRECTIVE 10 RESISIDENCE CARD.FURTHER PROOF IS THAT OF SPAIN AND I KNOW THE CZECH REPUBLIC

This is because Article 10 residence cards are only granted under the free MOVEMENT Directive 2004/38/EC if the EEA sponsor has MOVED from his country to another EU country and exercises Treaty rights, as the word movement suggests. The fact that an individual Member State decides to be more generous is not a scenario that perhaps was contemplated when the Directive was drafted, even though the Directive allows generosity. I think Spain and the Czech Republic are the exception rather than the norm, as I know that the UK, Ireland, Netherland, Denmark and Germany are strict about these things. Those are the countries that I know of that are strict but there are probably many more.

[rastaripples]

@twhyonline, I've read up on it and it appears that you are right. How curious! The Czech Republic must also be equally generous in that case, as it seems that it might be the case that rastaripples obtained his permit in the same way. That's generous of these countries to apply EU law instead of domestic law on the spouses of their nationals. I only wish the UK was so generous! They have a very harsh approach, trying to keep all non-EU family members out, including those of British sponsors who have actually exercised Treaty rights! The UK still attempt to deny even those ones their EU rights.

HI FURTHER TO OUR DISCUSSION YESTERDAY AND WHAT TWYONLINE IS SAYING I BELIEVE CERTAIN EU COUNTRIES HAVE APPLIED EU LAWS WITH REGARDS TO THE ISSUANCE OF RESIDENT PERMITS TO NON-EU FAMILY MEMBERS,IE SPAIN AND THE CZECH REPUBLIC AS WE KNOW THUS FAR.
SPOKE TO A NON-EU/TCN FELLA TODAY WHO ACTUALLY MET HIS E.U CZECH REPUBLIC SPOUSE WHILES SHE WAS OUT WORKING IN AFRICA.THEY GOT MARRIED IN AFRICA,MIGRATED TO THE CZECH REPUBLIC AND THE RESIDENCE PERMIT/CARD HE RECEIVED HAS "RESIDENCE CARD OF FAMILY MEMBER OF A EUROPEAN UNION CITIZEN" MIND YOU HE HAD NEVER BEEN TO EUROPE BEFORE NOR HAD SHE EXERCISED ANY TREATY RIGHTS WITH HIM.THERE COULD BE MORE COUNTRIES ADOPTING THIS STANCE.

YOU MENTIONED GENEROSITY IN YOUR EARLIER POST, WELL ITS EITHER THOSE COUNTRIES ARE ACTING WITHIN THE LAW OR THEY ARE NOT WITH REGARDING TO THESE RESIDENCE CARDS, AND IF THEY ARE I WOULD NOT CALL IT A CASE OF GENEROSITY. ALL OTHER COUNTRIES THAT DONT WELL HAVE THAT OPTION TO APPLY THE LAW OR NOT.

[rosebead]

@rastaripples, as I said, the Directive allows individual states to be generous if they wish to be, but this is not usually the norm. Very many EU states unfortunately like to keep immigrants out if they can and are happy to stick to the rules of the Directive without exercising their right to be generous.

[acme4242]

Article 10 residence cards are only granted under the free MOVEMENT Directive 2004/38/EC if the EEA sponsor has MOVED from his country to another EU country and exercises Treaty rights, as the word movement suggests. The fact that an individual Member State decides to be more generous is not a scenario that perhaps was contemplated when the Directive was drafted. I think Spain and the Czech Republic are the exception rather than the norm, as I know that the UK, Ireland, Netherland, Denmark and Germany are harsh about these things. Those are the countries that I know of that are harsh ut there are probably many more.

No, This is context the UK want to create. Actually when you look around the EU, the majority of states provide equal rights to their own citizens. The UK policy is a result of disloyal position of the state towards its own citizens.

Lets look at examples
Italy transposed EU directive 2004/38/EC into National Law Article 23 of 30/2007 which says "The provisions of this Legislative Decree, if more favourable, apply to the families of Italian citizens", Another example is Portugal, they avoided reverse discrimination when they transposed the EU Directive into Portuguese National Law Article 3.2, n.2 5 of the Act n.2 37/2006, which says "the regulations of this law applicable to family members are extendable to family members of citizens of Portuguese nationality, regardless of their nationality"
But the Czech Republic as far as I know, didn't provide such equality, perhaps their National courts intervened.

Anyway there is amateur blog post about this, here
Surely there must a professional study somewhere.

[rosebead]

As I already said, Article 10 is indeed a rule of the Directive. Member States are NOT obliged to be generous if they do not want to be and they usually aren't, although the Directive allows them to be generous, and in rare cases they are, but that is the exception rather than the norm.

[acme4242]

As I already said, Article 10 is indeed a rule of the Directive. Member States are NOT obliged to be generous if they do not want to be and they usually aren't, although the Directive allows them to be generous, and in rare cases they are, but that is the exception rather than the norm.

The numbers say the opposite
14 provide equality
13 implement discrimination (UK included, a disloyal position of the state towards its own citizens.)

[rastaripples]

As I already said, Article 10 is indeed a rule of the Directive. Member States are NOT obliged to be generous if they do not want to be and they usually aren't, although the Directive allows them to be generous, and in rare cases they are, but that is the exception rather than the norm.

The numbers say the opposite
14 provide equality
13 implement discrimination (UK included)

GREAT INFORMATION, MEANING THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS IN OTHER COUNTRIES

[rosebead]

Well I stand corrected. I was not aware that half of the EU wished to be generous, although half are not so it's not in fact an EU-wide phenomena. I guess I learnt something new today, that Article 10 residence cards are being gained through generosity rather than through exercising Treaty rights as are the conditions of the Directive. This phenomena is not a stated rule of the Directive, although States have leeway to be generous. I suppose since so many countries are in the Schengen with generally no internal border controls it seems pointless issuing residence permits that restrict travel anyway.

[acme4242]

Well I stand corrected. I was not aware that half of the EU wished to be generous, although half are not so it's not in fact an EU-wide phenomena. I guess I learnt something new today, that Article 10 residence cards can be gained through generosity rather than through exercising Treaty rights as are the conditions of the Directive. This phenomena is not a stated rule of the Directive, although States have leeway to be generous. I suppose since so many countries are in the Schengen with generally no internal border controls it seems pointless issuing residence permits that restrict travel anyway.

Actually the worse offenders are Germany and Denmark, the UK is pushing hard in third to be disloyal to its own citizens, but some of its citizens like Sean Ambrose McCarthy, Surinder Singh fight back.

[rosebead]

Here is the rule of the Directive that allows Member States to be generous for anyone who is interested:

Article 37
More favourable national provisions

The provisions of this Directive shall not affect any laws, regulations or administrative provisions laid down by a Member State which would be more favourable to the persons covered by this Directive.

It's a shame that the UK do not wish to exercise that right in the case of family unification for their own nationals.

[martiner99]

I was waiting for this news for quite some time with my wife, however after I have read everything, I guess we are still stuck. I am a Slovak national, and my wife has Residence Card issued by Slovakia. It is the exact same format as from some other EU countries, from what I saw on internet.

It seems as though, she still needs to get EEA Family Permit, am I right? As I am Slovak national and the Residence Card has been issued by my home country. Another thing is, it is not marked as - "Family Member of EU Citizen". I am not that worried about entering UK, as we both work here and can prove it when we travel next month, we will have Marriage Certificate with us and payslips.

Do you think airlines will still make a fuss? Or they will see Residence Card from Slovakia and be fine with that? I wish it was easier, maybe one day

I'm afraid domestic residence permits are not valid for EU travel. Only EEA residence cards, obtained by exercising Treaty rights in another EU country that is not your own or obtained by returning home after exercising Treat rights, can be used for visa-free travel in the EU

You can however obtain a EEA Family Permit free of charge and within a few weeks.

Thanks for your reply, I follow this conversation closely and it is all so confusing. But clarifies a lot, although it is hard to see logic behind most of these rules. I maybe forgot to mention that we have both been living and working in UK for the past 7 month. That is why all these problems.

Domestic residence permits are valid for EU travel though, at least definitely within the Schengen Area. Our trouble is, that we need to leave urgently for a few days only soon, and unfortunately EEA Family Permit takes quite some time. When we got it first time upon coming here, it took 2 weeks. Not to mention that the appointment days and times offered were very limited. So it is out of the question. It is hard for me to comprehend, why my wife has to be here technically like a prisoner till she gets UK Residence Card. As both working, we are not able to go out for 2-3 weeks just like that, so that we would have enough time to get Family Permit to come back. It is madness truly

As per user RASTARIPPLES, who got that "Residence card for Family Member of EU citizen" in Czech Republic. I am checking with Slovak authorities whether they could issue my wife same thing instead of simple Residence Permit. What we have is card number 3 on the linked page and seems like what she needs is card number 1. I will see what they say.

http://prado.consilium.europa.eu/EN/cat ... egory.html

[rosebead]

^ It's a pain I agree but it's not only a UK situation. The family members of UK nationals in other EEA countries also have the same dilemma. They also cannot holiday outside of the EU until they obtain an Article 10 residence card from their host State or apply for a Schengen visa for re-entry into the EU. Daft, I know, but what can you do.

To clear up the issue of why Article 10 residence cards do not have to be awarded to family members of EEA nationals living in their own country unless they have previously exercised Treaty rights, it is because the beneficiaries of the Directive are:

Article 3
Beneficiaries

1. This Directive shall apply to all Union citizens who move to or reside in a Member State other than that of which they are a national, and to their family members as defined in point 2 of Article 2 who accompany or join them.

However, Member States can, if they wish to, exercise a right to be more generous under Article 37.

[Obie]

Actually the worse offenders are Germany and Denmark, the UK is pushing hard in third to be disloyal to its own citizens, but some of its citizens like Sean Ambrose McCarthy, Surinder Singh fight back.

Difficult to see how the UK comes close 3rd.

If anything I will say the UK is the clear winner for first position followed by Denmark and then Germany.

Germany may be strict on its adult citizens, but they are not as harsh as the UK when it comes to their citizens, who are still in their minority.

They allow parents who are citizens of Germany, to enjoy similar system.
I see no justice in denying the UK its rightful position.

Let call a spade a spade, the UK has a clear policy of making life as horrendous for Immigrant as much as possible, and if one of its citizens was to even decide to form a relationship, they make their lives as miserabe as possible.

[acme4242]

https://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/anne ... anish-trap
https://www.nyidanmark.dk/en-us/coming_ ... pouses.htm
Maybe its not a good idea to award "Best in Class" for being disloyal to their own Citizens, like we are doing.
They should share shame.

Having watched Danish immigration policy slide further and further towards a point where certain aspects of it, such as the rules regarding family reunification, are now criticised for possible human rights breaches by European and International bodies, I know all too well the far-reaching and complicated negative consequence the Danish policies have had. I am therefore concerned that in the UK Government's current consultation on its proposed changes to the rules for Family Migration, the UK sees Denmark as a model for its policies.

[gozo1]

For regular, documented migrants, the German system is anything but lenient, in fact I am tempted to say it is extremely lenient and fair in some states. I have had a first hand experience of the system. UK's policies is bordering on being tagged as a dearly beloved policies, but I agree with acme statement Re:Denmark, no country comes close to Denmark in this regard, UK's policy is just a copy paste of the Danes.

[tebee]

Well we made it to the UK with just the French residence cards.

Had not realized they had moved border control to the French side, like the Tunnel. We caused much confusion, as they had to go and look up the changes and what to do, ended up missing the booked ferry. Asked for some strange paperwork, but I'd brought a good set of samples.

But we got in - the stamped the passports with 6 months UK visa - did not think they were supposed to do this.

[alazani28]

Well we made it to the UK with just the French residence cards.

Had not realized they had moved border control to the French side, like the Tunnel. We caused much confusion, as they had to go and look up the changes and what to do, ended up missing the booked ferry. Asked for some strange paperwork, but I'd brought a good set of samples.

But we got in - the stamped the passports with 6 months UK visa - did not think they were supposed to do this.

Well Done that is Great News:
When you are free can you please give us some more details:
What papers did you show them.
and if it would be the same to travel via plane?
Also would it be ok for British Citizen with his non eu partner?

Many Thanks
And well done again