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Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Only for queries regarding Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR). Please use the EU Settlement Scheme forum for queries about settled status under Appendix EU

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Hamster123
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Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by Hamster123 » Wed May 13, 2015 11:06 pm

I currently have an ILR in the UK, which I got about 2 years ago. I am currently finishing my PhD and I wanted to know if working as a Postdoc for 3 years abroad can/will cause me to loose my visa. The thing is that as a Postdoc, one usually has enough "free time" to be able to live in the UK for a significant amount of time.

So the questoin is, will working abroad (but still in the EU, if that matters) cause me to loose the visa directly? Or does it depend on how long I stay in the UK, and if so, how long do I have to be in the UK for me not to loose it?

With Regards.

O_Relly
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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by O_Relly » Thu May 14, 2015 12:06 am

Staying abroad for longer than 2 years will render an ILR invalid.

You can potentially, travel back into the Uk but it will be seen with suspicion if an ILR is used to visit the UK while living elsewhere.

If you have held the ILR for longer thab 12 months, whats stopping you from applying for a citizenship ?
Cheers,
OR

Hamster123
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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by Hamster123 » Thu May 14, 2015 12:19 am

Well currently time, since the application will most likely take at least 8 months and applying for a visa in a different country while applying for a visa in the Uk seems like a tad bit hard.

When yuo say that staying abroad for longer then 2 years will render an ILR invalid, what do you mean by "staying abroad"? For exmaple, if I come back every few months and stay in the UK for abuot 4 months a year, will it count as me staying abroad? How long do I have to stay in the UK to count as the year basically?

Cheers.

vinny
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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by vinny » Thu May 14, 2015 1:06 am

Consider using the NCS so that you can travel and come back when required.
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
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O_Relly
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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by O_Relly » Thu May 14, 2015 10:47 am

I dont believe there is a strict rule as to how long you must stay in the uk in a year with an ILR to retain your ILR. The idea is you are a permanent resident in the uk and hence expected to act like one ie., not use ILR as indefinite multipe entry visitor visa.

It might work if you stay four months in the country, but if you do this every year, it might raise suspicion that you are travelling into the UK only to keep your ILR as valid.

If you can convince the IO that your primary residence is the UK, you have a house, family, life in the UK and are only spending time out of the UK to do post-doc work as a temp arrangement, which is due to end in year-x after which you be permanently based in UK, then my assumption is this might work.

I would still recommend doing what Vinny has suggested.
Cheers,
OR

Hamster123
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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by Hamster123 » Thu May 14, 2015 1:43 pm

Thanks both for your replies and advice. I am still not 100% sure what I will do, (its not like I even have teh job yet :) ) but I at least have a general idead of my options. I will most likely see a solicitor anyways to make sure I dont forget something important.

I also think it is possible to only work 2 years and then change positions after that and move to the UK, though having a guaranteed 3 years is of course much prefered.

Anyways, again thanks for the advise.

(If anyone has anything to add btw, I will still check on this thread every now and again).

Cheers.

zeusmagnanimous
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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by zeusmagnanimous » Fri May 15, 2015 10:29 am

Don't waste your money on a solicitor, since there is no hard and fast rule he will not give you anything of value.
Also I don't understand who told you that the BC application will take at least 8 months. If you immigration history is pretty straight forward then generally these take around 6-8 weeks and this is you can also see from various timeline threads on the forum.

Hamster123
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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by Hamster123 » Fri May 15, 2015 6:14 pm

Well noone told me that, but when I applied for the ILR at took 8+ months, and yes the history was very straight forward. (Btw. they said it would last 2 months too :)). I dont mind that btw, I think that a country should me sure before making such a decision, but you understand that if a job starts in say 2 months and I start the application processes now, I can hardly tell them to wait for me 6 months...


Not that it matter for this but generally it is actually considered a good thing if you do your postdoc in an other country, since you learn a lot about a different school of that subject.

Don't waste your money on a solicitor, since there is no hard and fast rule he will not give you anything of value.
I dont mean to be doubtful, but its just a bit hard to believe that a country does not have a clear legal definition as to what qualifies as living in the UK.

Anyways, thanks for your help and advice.

Cheers.

vinny
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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by vinny » Fri May 15, 2015 8:55 pm

Why do you think that they would have to wait for six months? You could start the naturalisation application now and the work in two months and return to the UK when required. You may need someone to help monitor your mail in the UK.
vinny wrote:Consider using the NCS so that you can travel and come back when required.
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

Hamster123
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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by Hamster123 » Sat May 16, 2015 1:00 pm

Hmm.. well I am not sure about this. But, I do think that you need to have your passport etc to get a visa in Germany and then live there. I am actually not sure about these things, I am very ignorant about how these things work, so I might be wrong. But it seems very unrealistic that I can hand in my passport etc here and then travel around the EU and get work permits etc there.

I am not even 100% sure that I can get a German Visa and work permit while I have an ILR in the UK, I have to check that too :/ ( everything is soo complicated :cry: ).

Anyways, I just wanted to find out what exactly I can and can not do with the ILR.
If its allowed to work outside the Uk at all,
If its allowed to get a work permit (from the UK side) in an other country while maintaining the ILR,
How long I can leave the UK in what amount of times to still qualify as living here etc.

From what I have udnerstood, and please correct me if I am wrong, its allowed to leave the UK, get a work permit in an other country and work there for 2 years and still maintain my ILR. Is that part at least correct?

Cheers.

vinny
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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by vinny » Sat May 16, 2015 1:22 pm

If it's obvious that you work outside the UK, then they may cancel your ILR.
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

Hamster123
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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by Hamster123 » Sat May 16, 2015 2:05 pm

vinny wrote:If it's obvious that you work outside the UK, then they may cancel your ILR.
Even for 2 years?
I was given to understand that 2 years was still considered ok.

riz1986
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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by riz1986 » Sat May 16, 2015 3:23 pm

the best way is to get the British passport if you not interest then u better give up ur ILR n do whatever u like n go wherever u want.sorry for being harsh !!!

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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by Hamster123 » Sat May 16, 2015 3:40 pm

riz1986 wrote:the best way is to get the British passport if you not interest then u better give up ur ILR n do whatever u like n go wherever u want.sorry for being harsh !!!
Thank you for your suggestion. I have already said why at present it's not exactly as simple as that for me. But that beeing said, I am only asking about what I am legaly allowed to do and what options I have available, so I can choose the one i prefer. (Thats why its called options :)).

Also, a slightly off topic thing that I wanted to tell you, if you want people to take your suggestions more seriously, may I recommend using more generally accepted grammer and spelling to get your point across? For example,
if you not interest
should perhaps be if you are not interested and
generally 'u' should maybe be written as 'you'. Likewise, I am not english and my own spelling and grammer is everyting but perfect, but I am pretty sure its "you are" or "you're" and not "ur".
I fully agree with the fact that the meaning is more important but the presentation does matter.

Cheers.

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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by secret.simon » Sat May 16, 2015 5:13 pm

The underlying meaning of ILR is that you are settled in the UK and that you have indefinite leave to remain in the UK. But nonetheless, it is leave that can be revoked, even by the Immigration Officer at the airport.

I would interpret (and I am not an immigration officer or lawyer, but another applicant like yourself) settling in the UK as having your main estate (that includes personal estate, such as bank accounts, etc) and the center of your life (including work) in the UK. You are free to go abroad to improve your work chances. As a PhD holder, for instance, you may wish to attend conferences, even conduct research abroad. Indeed, the basis of your research may be entirely based abroad (such as if you were researching the Holocaust, for instance). But it will come down to whether you can demonstrate that you are settled in the UK. That is tricky.

I believe (and I can be wrong) that the two years rule that you refer to is guidance, not a hard-and-fast rule. If you return within two years, there is a good chance that the center of your life is in the UK and therefore you are settled here. But there is no such guarantee. If you come in two days before the end of the two years and head out the day after arrival, the Immigration Officer may look askance at such travel and conclude that you are not settled in the UK.

While you may consider riz1986's grammar risible (sorry for the pun, but I could not resist), there is a kernel of truth in his advice. You may be significantly better off applying for citizenship and then heading abroad. Citizenship is much harder to revoke and has international consequences, while leave to remain has only domestic consequences.

As an aside, while I appreciate your passion for the English language, one that I share, these forums are not the best place to correct people on their grammar. Understandably, as most of them are migrants (like you and me), they may not have a strong grasp of the English language. And invariably, grammatical structure and spelling is not their priority when on this forum. Let us help each other to the best of our ability on the topic that we are here to discuss; the complexity of the ever-evolving UK immigration system.

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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by Hamster123 » Sat May 16, 2015 7:47 pm

secret.simon wrote: While you may consider riz1986's grammar risible (sorry for the pun, but I could not resist), there is a kernel of truth in his advice. You may be significantly better off applying for citizenship and then heading abroad. Citizenship is much harder to revoke and has international consequences, while leave to remain has only domestic consequences.

As an aside, while I appreciate your passion for the English language, one that I share, these forums are not the best place to correct people on their grammar. Understandably, as most of them are migrants (like you and me), they may not have a strong grasp of the English language. And invariably, grammatical structure and spelling is not their priority when on this forum. Let us help each other to the best of our ability on the topic that we are here to discuss; the complexity of the ever-evolving UK immigration system.
Maybe slightly unmannered from my own part to correct someone who gives his/her advice on a question I asked. Still I do believe that most people who write "u" instead of "you" don't do so due a lack of English skills because they are foreign and didn't have the time to learn the language yet. Be that as it may, was probably still not the best way from me to handle it.
Back to the topic.

While I am considering applying for the citizenship, as I have numerous times said, it takes time and this particular offer is starting in a short time. Hence if I am simply allowed to work there for 2 years, it would be a lot simpler for me.

Anyway, I guess I am just very surprised that there is no, at least semi-clear, rule as to what constitutes as living in the UK and how long, if at all, I am allowed to work abroad.

For instance I was (maybe wrongly it seems) expecting something like this, which I made up and is NOT! real of course (in case someone else reads this thread later with the same question):

The person in question has to:
  • come in the UK at least once every 6 months,
  • be in the UK for at least 3 months every year,
  • has to be in the UK for at least 3 years out of every given 5 year period.


Cheers.

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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by Casa » Sat May 16, 2015 7:58 pm

Hamster123 wrote:
riz1986 wrote:the best way is to get the British passport if you not interest then u better give up ur ILR n do whatever u like n go wherever u want.sorry for being harsh !!!
Thank you for your suggestion. I have already said why at present it's not exactly as simple as that for me. But that beeing said, I am only asking about what I am legaly allowed to do and what options I have available, so I can choose the one i prefer. (Thats why its called options :)).

Also, a slightly off topic thing that I wanted to tell you, if you want people to take your suggestions more seriously, may I recommend using more generally accepted grammer and spelling to get your point across? For example,
if you not interest
should perhaps be if you are not interested and
generally 'u' should maybe be written as 'you'. Likewise, I am not english and my own spelling and grammer is everyting but perfect, but I am pretty sure its "you are" or "you're" and not "ur".
I fully agree with the fact that the meaning is more important but the presentation does matter.

Cheers.
If we're being pedantic here regarding spelling 'everyting' should be 'everything' and its has an apostrophe - it's
Sorry, I couldn't resist. I we insisted on consistently perfect grammar, we would have very few posts. :wink:
(Casa, not CR001)
Please don't send me PMs asking for immigration advice on posts that are on the open forum. If I haven't responded there, it's because I don't have the answer. I'm a moderator, not a legal professional.

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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by hellonewhere » Sat May 16, 2015 8:09 pm

Is it "lose" and not "loose"?
Probably just me.

Good luck with the doctorate program OP, hope it all works out.

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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by Casa » Sat May 16, 2015 8:28 pm

Correct hellonewhere . It's also:
legally - not legaly
being - not beeing
another - not a nother
cannot - not can not
Just shows that none of us are perfect :wink:

Good luck from me too, whatever your decision. By the way, if you apply for BC through the NCS you would be able to retain your passport while the application is being processed.
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Please don't send me PMs asking for immigration advice on posts that are on the open forum. If I haven't responded there, it's because I don't have the answer. I'm a moderator, not a legal professional.

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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by Hamster123 » Sat May 16, 2015 8:41 pm

Casa wrote: Just shows that none of us are perfect :wink:
Indeed :), but
another - not a nother ----- (clearly a typo)
cannot - not can not ----- (are you sure about that? (this whole "argument" aside), it was my understanding that both are acceptable)

Anyway. :D :mrgreen:
Casa wrote: By the way, if you apply for BC through the NCS you would be able to retain your passport while the application is being processed.
That is interesting to know. I was not aware of that. Can I also apply for a separate visa/work permit at the same time? I am not expecting an answer as to how the visa application in other countries work, but would it be ok from the UK side?

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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by Casa » Sat May 16, 2015 8:53 pm

Surely you wouldn't need to apply for an extension/work permit as you already have ILR don't you? You could only submit an application for BC (through NCS as Vinny suggested) if you'd already been granted permanent residence (ILR).

By the way, I believe the increased use of 'u' and 'ur' isn't necessarily due to a lack of English, it's the increasing use of text speak, which admittedly is difficult to interpret at times.
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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by Hamster123 » Sat May 16, 2015 10:47 pm

Casa wrote:Surely you wouldn't need to apply for an extension/work permit as you already have ILR don't you?
I don't need a work permit in the UK ( I have one here due to the ILR), but in the country I want to work. I wanted to know if I can apply for a work permit in Germany and at around the same time for a BC. (I.e. you have to live in the UK for most of the last year before applying for a BC if I am not mistaken, so I am not sure if say looking for an abroad work permit is allowed. And even if it's technically allowed, if it will not hamper my chances to get the BC. Getting a no on a BC application is not exactly great)
Casa wrote:By the way, I believe the increased use of 'u' and 'ur' isn't necessarily due to a lack of English, it's the increasing use of text speak, which admittedly is difficult to interpret at times.
Indeed, my opinion exactly and that's why I said something, which in retrospect was not that smart it seems :mrgreen:, considering that it has become the main point of discussion of this thread :).

So that being said, I am sorry if I hurt someones feelings, I didn't mean that.

Also, thanks to everyone here for trying to help, most forums are less supportive.

Cheers.

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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by secret.simon » Sat May 16, 2015 11:34 pm

Hamster123 wrote:I wanted to know if I can apply for a work permit in Germany and at around the same time for a BC. (I.e. you have to live in the UK for most of the last year before applying for a BC if I am not mistaken, so I am not sure if say looking for an abroad work permit is allowed. And even if it's technically allowed, if it will not hamper my chances to get the BC. Getting a no on a BC application is not exactly great)
I surmised as much from the tenor of the original discussion and I believe that there is no impediment to applying for a German (or other) work permit while applying for British citizenship, apart from the fact that once you are British, your German work permit is redundant, as of course, as an EEA citizen, you do not need a German work permit.
Hamster123 wrote: Anyway, I guess I am just very surprised that there is no, at least semi-clear, rule as to what constitutes as living in the UK and how long, if at all, I am allowed to work abroad.

For instance I was (maybe wrongly it seems) expecting something like this, which I made up and is NOT! real of course (in case someone else reads this thread later with the same question):

The person in question has to:
  • come in the UK at least once every 6 months,
  • be in the UK for at least 3 months every year,
  • has to be in the UK for at least 3 years out of every given 5 year period.


Cheers.
English law (Scots law is a different kettle of fish, or should I say, sturgeon) tends not to rely too much on spelling things out absolutely and tends to rely on what a reasonable person would think of the issue. Indeed, great lawyers and judges have spoken and written at length of this hypothetical "reasonable person". That is also why so much English law depends on juries of 12 randomly selected people. They are likely to average out to what a reasonable person would think.

This is disconcerting for people from other cultures, particularly civil law jurisdictions, which tend to spell things out explicitly. But it has the advantage of the law automatically adapting to current culture simply because of a change in the way people (not judges, but ordinary people) interpret it.

If you look at immigration law, almost all of it is completely at the discretion of the Home Office. There are very few absolute rules in it. And in almost every case, you can ask for discretion. So long as you can convince a reasonable person (the caseworker) that you intend to work/settle, you will be granted leave to remain.

So, in your instance, it would depend on whether the Immigration Officer can be convinced that the center of your life is in the UK and that you are in Germany only for research/PhD oriented work.
Hamster123 wrote: Indeed, my opinion exactly and that's why I said something, which in retrospect was not that smart it seems :mrgreen:, considering that it has become the main point of discussion of this thread :).

So that being said, I am sorry if I hurt someones feelings, I didn't mean that.
I doubt you have hurt anybody's feelings. If anything, you have injected a note of levity and a mild diversion from the more mundane issues that we help out with. I can certainly speak for myself when I say that it is appreciated.

As an aside, may I ask what field is your PhD in? And (for purely personal interest), which country are you from?

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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by Hamster123 » Sun May 17, 2015 1:13 am

Well, first of all let me thank you for you indepth answer, it is much appreciated. Indeed it was a surprise to me that things are not so ... precise ... here. While I understand the benefits of this system when it comes to actual court cases, where a jury is assembled, I am a bit surprised about this. Be that as it may, who am I to question it.
secret.simon wrote:So, in your instance, it would depend on whether the Immigration Officer can be convinced that the center of your life is in the UK and that you are in Germany only for research/PhD oriented work.
It is actually not a PhD oriented work, but the next step, the post doc. It is an intermediate step though and in the great majority of situations one gets a permanent position in a completely different University. So it is generally a very temporary situation. Its not like say with firms etc where one is often hired for say 3 years and depending on how good one is, one might get a longer position etc. It is expected for the researcher to change Universities.
(Off topic:)Indeed in Germany it is a long tradition that the steps from PhD to post doc and from post doc to a fellowship should also mean a change of cities. For parts because it helps against corruption etc, but mostly since a researcher is expected to travel to learn different things, even if its in the same subject area.

By the way, now that I think about it, is it possible for me to clear this with the Home office via a phone call? Do they answer questions like that?
As an aside, may I ask what field is your PhD in? And (for purely personal interest), which country are you from?
It's in Maths. Please don't take this as a sign of bad manners or anything but I would rather not disclose answers to questions like that on a public forum. I hope you understand.

Cheers.

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Re: Will I loose my ILR visa if I work abroad for 3 years?

Post by vinny » Sun May 17, 2015 2:28 am

I think you may be shooting yourself in the foot, if you apply for a work permit to another country before you are granted British citizenship. Your ILR may be at risk and you may fail the future intentions requirements for British citizenship.
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction. Please click on any given links for further information. Refer to the source of any quotes.
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