EEA Family Permit - Irish national/British citizen

[Ernie]

Hi,

My wife-to-be and I want to apply for the EEA Family Permit. I have Irish nationality, however I was born in England and only lived in Ireland for one year as a toddler, holding an Irish passport. I currently have an Irish passport but have previously held a German one (Irish mother, German father), but I've never held a British passport. My partner is Japanese. I have very little knowledge of EU law and I'm wondering if we're still eligible as I have never worked in a member state. I have just finished university and am employed part time. We did speak with one lawyer who said that as long as I have work it should be fine, but now I am unsure.

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks in advance.

[secret.simon]

If you were born in the UK to Irish parents, you probably are considered British by birth, as you were born in the UK to parents settled in the UK (Irish citizens get "settled" status on arrival in the UK). So, while you may not have a British passport, you are likely a multiple citizen of the UK, Ireland and Germany, the very embodiment of the EU. Brussels would love you.

As your partner is Japanese, you would also represent almost half the countries in the G7 in your home

My understanding is that for you to exercise treaty rights, you would have to work or study (studying is included in the treaty rights) in any country other than the three countries you are a citizen of.

[chaoclive]

If you were born in the UK to Irish parents, you probably are considered British by birth, as you were born in the UK to parents settled in the UK (Irish citizens get "settled" status on arrival in the UK). So, while you may not have a British passport, you are likely a multiple citizen of the UK, Ireland and Germany, the very embodiment of the EU. Brussels would love you.

As your partner is Japanese, you would also represent almost half the countries in the G7 in your home

My understanding is that for you to exercise treaty rights, you would have to work or study (studying is included in the treaty rights) in any country other than the three countries you are a citizen of.

I would agree that (want it or not) you will have British citizenship already, which, would preclude you from using the straightforward method of simply having your wife apply for an EEA family permit. If your Irish passport shows your place of birth as being the county in England where you were born (or indeed the UK if that's how they do it), then the case worker processing her EEA family permit application might go and run some other checks. The county appears on the passport for those born in Northern Ireland.

Of course, it is possible to renounce British citizenship (as I, and a few others on here, have done in the last year). Feel free to have a look through my posts and let me know if you have any questions. Renunciation will take a little while: it took mine about 3 months approx. More info on renunciation here: https://www.gov.uk/renounce-british-nationality.

[Ernie]

Thank you for your response. Do you think it could cause any downstream problems if we tried to apply for it anyway? Also are there any issues which could arise if I renounce my British citizenship, e.g. would I have to leave the country? Other things I'm wondering is does it matter that I have NHS cover and not CSI? My partner is financially independent of me, but would she be considered a dependent for the purpose of this and would she therefore need to provide details of her own financial situation? Its difficult to know which parts of the application form are necessary. We had planned to apply for the family permit straight after our marriage, would it be advisable to wait a bit or would you think it OK to apply then? Would me having national registration certificate be beneficial? Thanks!

[chaoclive]

Thank you for your response. Do you think it could cause any downstream problems if we tried to apply for it anyway? Also are there any issues which could arise if I renounce my British citizenship, e.g. would I have to leave the country? Other things I'm wondering is does it matter that I have NHS cover and not CSI? My partner is financially independent of me, but would she be considered a dependent for the purpose of this and would she therefore need to provide details of her own financial situation? Its difficult to know which parts of the application form are necessary. We had planned to apply for the family permit straight after our marriage, would it be advisable to wait a bit or would you think it OK to apply then? Would me having national registration certificate be beneficial? Thanks!

The only real issue with applying now may be that they will reject it. I don't think there is anything more serious than that in the future. Of course, you may get a case worker who doesn't pick up on the fact that you were born in the UK.

I renounced British citizenship, as did a few people I know and none of us have faced any issues. I renounced outside the country and then entered as an Irish citizen. My friend renounced in the UK and did not leave the UK at all. Her husband now has his residence card so it worked fine for them!

She just needs to be your spouse - that makes everything simple. If you're not married yet, you will have to prove that you have been in a genuine 'lasting' relationship with her. More details here: https://www.gov.uk/family-permit/eligibility and http://uklgig.org.uk/?page_id=1000 (examples of evidence you might be able to provide). I'm not 100% sure if there would be any suspicions raised by applying straight after marriage. I guess, if you have all your evidence re: being in a lasting relationship, you would be able to prove them otherwise if they were to reject her application solely on this basis.

You do NOT need to provide financial information (yours or hers) to get an EEA family permit (obviously; this is providing your meet the requirements under the Directive).

By 'national registration certificate' do you mean on form EEA (QP)? If so, it would definitely help if they were to give you a registration cert. However, due to the issues with British citizenship noted above, you might find that they reject this. I got a registration certificate (on form EEA1 at that time) after renouncing British citizenship and I enclosed it when my civil partner applied for his residence card. Not too sure if it actually helped, but I'm sure it showed that they had no reason to suspect that I held British citizenship (otherwise why would they have given me a registration certificate).

Hope this helps a little!
CC

[Ernie]

Thank you. Would you suggest we get married and apply anyway and in the case that it is rejected I renounce my citizenship and then we apply again? The fact remains either way that I was born in England and this will be evident in either case. If I were to renounce citizenship, what would change? Would I then automatically be practicing treaty rights / free movement, making us eligible? Would anything change for me regarding my residence in the UK or my job?

[Ernie]

Additionally, did you friend ever leave the UK to live or work in the past? Or did you mean just during renouncing his residence?

[chaoclive]

Additionally, did you friend ever leave the UK to live or work in the past? Or did you mean just during renouncing his residence?

Nope; she didn't leave the UK to work as far as I know. She did live in Donegal for a short period of time but that wouldn't mean anything as she also had Irish citizenship. She renounced citizenship.

[chaoclive]

Thank you. Would you suggest we get married and apply anyway and in the case that it is rejected I renounce my citizenship and then we apply again? The fact remains either way that I was born in England and this will be evident in either case. If I were to renounce citizenship, what would change? Would I then automatically be practicing treaty rights / free movement, making us eligible? Would anything change for me regarding my residence in the UK or my job?

I don't know how it would work with being rejected and then applying again. I don't think it would be a major issue as your circumstances would have changed at that time.

If you renounced British citizenship, then you would be classed as an Irish citizen working in the UK and, therefore, exercising treaty rights and making yourselves eligible. Nothing changes re: job/benefits you can receive/voting/kids going to school/kids getting both citizenships if born here/paying tax etc. My banks didn't even care! Irish citizens have a kind of 'special' position in UK law, we're not seen as foreigners as such and can enjoy a range of benefits that groups can't necessarily enjoy.

Another point (which I may have raised above): if you were to live in Northern Ireland going forward, your wife (as your spouse, not your fiancee) would be eligible for Irish citizenship after 3 years of residence on the island of Ireland. This would be quicker that the route to PR under the EEA rules in the UK and quicker than getting British citizenship.

I'll contact that friend to check if she thinks living in ROI made any difference to their case. I imagine it didn't and the reason why they lived there was to be eligible to get married (a guess).

[chaoclive]

OP: I've check with my mate. She said the following:
"I renounced while I was in the UK. I've been officially here continuously since 2000. Renounced Nov 2013, well sent the app then, got confirmation of it in Jan 2014. The HO did know that I moved from ROI to live and work in 2000. I don't know how much that mattered to them. All they cared about was that I was Irish and not British at the time of the RC application decision."

[Ernie]

Thank you CC. We're going to go for it, but with help from a solicitor regarding the application and cover letter as this seems complicated and our grasp of law is no existent. Do you think if our EEA application is successful I can renounce citizenshop prior to RC application and do it that way? Is there any other recommendations you can make? I appreciate your responses.

[chaoclive]

Thank you CC. We're going to go for it, but with help from a solicitor regarding the application and cover letter as this seems complicated and our grasp of law is no existent. Do you think if our EEA application is successful I can renounce citizenshop prior to RC application and do it that way? Is there any other recommendations you can make? I appreciate your responses.

I'm really not sure about that. If they do give your wife the EEA FP you might be able to argue that they should then give your wife the RC. However, they could also say that the EEA FP was issued in error and, therefore, may refuse the RC. I really wouldn't like to say as I renounced before applying for the EEA FP. I would have thought that this would be the best method (unless you're in a rush I guess) as the Home Office don't really have the chance to refuse this at any stage, provided you are a qualified person.

Are you working in the UK at present?

I hope someone else will come along and provide some ideas about this.

[Ernie]

How do you mean they don't have the chance to refuse at this stage? We are in a bit of a rush. I do have a job, part time technically, but when I get back from travelling in July I will work there again. On these grounds I assume I am a qualified person. I hope so too, I could do with all the advice I can get. Its a tricky situation.

[chaoclive]

How do you mean they don't have the chance to refuse at this stage? We are in a bit of a rush. I do have a job, part time technically, but when I get back from travelling in July I will work there again. On these grounds I assume I am a qualified person. I hope so too, I could do with all the advice I can get. Its a tricky situation.

They can't refuse an Irish citizen (without British citizenship) exercising treaty rights in the UK as long as you're a qualified person. They can (and should, according to the law) refuse a dual Irish/British citizen who is working in the UK and has not worked in another EEA country (therefore, has not undertaken Surinder Singh). This is outlined really clearly on the UK Home Office website: https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ily-permit. You may be lucky in getting a case worker who overlooks the fact that you (almost definitely) have British citizenship.

It's not tricky at all actually. Renunciation would solve everything. You can read up on the Home Office citizenship rules to make sure that you are actually a British citizen (although I see no way for you not to be).