Right of Abode in expired passport, can work?

[BarryS]

Hello,
I have Australian citizenship and live in the UK on a certificate of entitlement in a now expired passport. The certificate was issued in 1997. I have a new passport and currently carry both old and new when I travel. Apart from the odd question about how I qualified for right of abode, I have never faced any difficulty with this arrangement at passport control.
I was born in 1967 in Australia to British born parents and as a child travelled on my mother's UK passport. I obtained an Australian passport in 1976 and moved to the UK on a patriality certificate. I have moved back and forth between UK and Australia every few years ever since, including on certificates in old passports.

On Wednesday, I was sent home from work because my employer has realised about the expired passport and has contacted the UKBA who told them I needed to transfer the cert into the new passport. I wasn't privy to the conversation, so don't know exactly what the were told. When I have called UKBA, I am lead down a load of dead end phone options on a premium rate phone line. The one person I got through to appeared to be inexpert and couldn't give me straight answers, instead directing me to the not very relevant web page.
I applied for a UK passport 2 years ago and they sent me a letter saying I appeared to be a British citizen, but for identification purposes could I please get all my employers and landlords for the last 3 years (there were a few as I do contracting and move house/job a fair bit, and all in Australia at the time) to write a letter to the directly confirming that they knew me. The signed statement of my best friend, a UK policeman, wasn't enough. I abandoned that idea.
Now I'm told it will take 6 weeks to process the application for a new certificate.
Basically, can someone please tell me if I am breaking the law by working on a certificate of entitlement in an expired passport or if my employer is breaking the law by keeping me on?
Thanks in advance for any light you can shed,
Barry

[Mr Rusty]

You are a British citizen, and your Right of Abode hasn't expired just because your passport has. You are perfectly entitled to live and work in the UK. Your employer should not dismiss you because your passport has expired. The advice he got from the UKBA only makes sense in the context of you wishing to travel, but the person he spoke to probably wasn't bright enough to understand the context of the enquiry. If he sacks you, take him to an industrial tribunal.

You should also not accept the reluctance of the Passport Agency to issue you with a British passport, because of alleged doubts about your identity. But if you do get a Certificate of Entitlement to Right of Abode in a new Australian passport, you will not be given a British Passport in any case. These days you have to choose one or the other, because of fraudulent use in previous years by some people entitled to both documents.

[BarryS]

Thanks, that's basically as I understood it.
I would have thought they would just cancel the right of abode if they issued the passport wouldn't they? They would have the document in front of them when processing the application.

I've since been advised that the information came from the Home Office Employers Helpline on 0300 1234699. How well equipped they are, I have no idea.

[BarryS]

I've been out of work and on the dole for 2 weeks now because of this matter and don't really know what to do next.

On one hand, I can just suck it in and send my passport away knowing that without it as ID, I won't work before new year and won't have evidence should I take any kind of legal action.

On the other, this has cost me tens of thousands of pounds in the long term and has put an ugly mess on my CV and possibly damaged my professional reputation.

Searching through documentation on the UKBA sites, internal documents say that an expired passport is a legitimate identity and nationality document and that persons of my background have a statutory right of abode in the UK, whereas documents for public consumption state that certificates expire with the passport as per the law passed in 2006. Thus, I think the UKBA know that this creates a situation like the one I find myself in and will stick to the line that I need to renew and won't deviate from it even when asked a straight question: "am I breaking the law by working in the UK?" so as to avoid legal consequences.

My inclination is to not take this on the chin and to pursue what I have lost, but don't know where to begin or who to talk to.

Can anyone give me any advice on this, please?

[parvus1202]

As you have a UK born parents then you are entitled to a UK citizenship and passport. Contact the HO with your parents birth certs and passports and apply for citizenship.

[BarryS]

Thanks, but it's not what I'm looking for in the meantime.. I've already been through the passport farce..

[The Station Agent]

If your stamp in your old passport says you have indefinite leave to remain or "there is no time limit on the holder's stay in the UK" then I don't think your employer has a leg to stand on.

What does your stamp say?

If you look at page 67 of the Preventing Illegal Working leaflet for employers it says clearly that someone given an indefinite stamp can work without any restriction. Link below:

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

[UKBAbble]

If your stamp in your old passport says you have indefinite leave to remain or "there is no time limit on the holder's stay in the UK" then I don't think your employer has a leg to stand on.

What does your stamp say?

It says he has right of abode. Same as British.

[BarryS]

If your stamp in your old passport says you have indefinite leave to remain or "there is no time limit on the holder's stay in the UK" then I don't think your employer has a leg to stand on.

What does your stamp say?

It says he has right of abode. Same as British.

It says right of abode, but it does say within the validity of the passport.. Which takes me back to the point that their own docs say that an expired passport is still valid as an identity and nationality document.
Since the end of 2006, I've been through UK immigration at least 10 times and no one has said a word about it not being valid.

[vinny]

Hello,
I have Australian citizenship and live in the UK on a certificate of entitlement in a now expired passport. The certificate was issued in 1997. I have a new passport and currently carry both old and new when I travel. Apart from the odd question about how I qualified for right of abode, I have never faced any difficulty with this arrangement at passport control.
I was born in 1967 in Australia to British born parents and as a child travelled on my mother's UK passport. I obtained an Australian passport in 1976 and moved to the UK on a patriality certificate. I have moved back and forth between UK and Australia every few years ever since, including on certificates in old passports.

You are British. You may apply for confirmation of British citizenship or a British passport.

Your British citizenship/right of abode does not expire, although the certificate or passport may.

It is strange that the certificate's validity is within the passport's validity, unlike ILRs. This didn't matter much when previously the certificate may be transferred for free from one passport to another.

[BarryS]

Your British citizenship/right of abode does not expire, although the certificate or passport may.

Thanks.
You and I know that, but the UKBA told my employer otherwise and it cost me my job and I think I should be compensated for it. I just don't know where to begin and there's nothing on the web about it, presumably because we don't normally have immigration issues.
I've been down the passport route 2 years ago and they wanted me to jump through unreasonable hoops, so I gave up.

[vinny]

Making a complaint to the UK Border Agency

[BarryS]

Making a complaint to the UK Border Agency

Thanks. I'll give it a go, but I'm a but surprised it hasn't come up before. Hopefully they won't fob me off the way their information centre did.

[Mr Rusty]

You could also try interesting the National Press in your plight. "British Citizen sacked because of UKBA incompetence" would make a pretty compelling headline. The Daily Mail are always ready to take a pop at those clowns, and the Times has had some fairly hard-hitting articles about them recently.
Did your employer get the advice he was given in writing? If not, it doesn't look as if he placed much value on you as an employee.
I think what has happened to you is outrageous, and you are entitled to try every trick in the book to hit them where it hurts, and get compensation.

[The Station Agent]

Perhaps your boss was looking for an excuse to trim some staff, otherwise surely they would have assisted you in rectifying the situation?

It is not the UKBA's intention to have people who are legally here sacked - it has happened partly due to their advice line being less than helpful, partly your employer being dramatically over-zealous (or sly - depending on their motivation) and partly you knowing you had a time-dated stamp that has expired but not getting it transferred into your new passport.

I totally sympathise with your situation though.

[BarryS]

I was a contractor and had only been there 2 and a half weeks. I received an offer of an extension on the day I was sent home.

I did know that the certificate was in an old passport, however I have travelled many times on it and carried both passports safe in the knowledge that this was normal. I agree that I should have renewed in hindsight, but the process is long winded and expensive now and I was travelling a fair bit. I thought the expired cert would be recognised in the same way as an expired passport. And no one would think to exclude someone because a UK passport was expired..
I appreciate the sympathy though ...


Whilst I suspect this will be turned back on me by the UKBA, I still feel that this situation is down to poor information given by the helpline. The employment agent queried with me about the certificate and I suggested she speak to the HO to clear it up, however they told her the opposite of what I anticipated and I was removed from the premises until I could prove to them I could work.

As I see it, there are 2 laws in conflict. one from the 70s which says I'm a UK national. and one from 2006 which says RoA certificates expire with the passport. However, AFAIK, the first law was not repealed.

[JAJ]

As I see it, there are 2 laws in conflict. one from the 70s which says I'm a UK national. and one from 2006 which says RoA certificates expire with the passport. However, AFAIK, the first law was not repealed.

You're a British citizen (apparently) but without any proof of your citizenship.


Was your father born in the UK and were your parents married? If so, you are British, if not, you might only be Australian with ROA.

[BarryS]

As I see it, there are 2 laws in conflict. one from the 70s which says I'm a UK national. and one from 2006 which says RoA certificates expire with the passport. However, AFAIK, the first law was not repealed.

You're a British citizen (apparently) but without any proof of your citizenship.


Was your father born in the UK and were your parents married? If so, you are British, if not, you might only be Australian with ROA.

Both parents are UK born.

[vinny]

Were they married too?

[BarryS]

Were they married too?

Yes, but for right of abode I think it doesn't matter..

[vinny]

It's necessary for British citizenship.

[Raj5]

Hello,
I have Australian citizenship and live in the UK on a certificate of entitlement in a now expired passport. The certificate was issued in 1997. I have a new passport and currently carry both old and new when I travel. Apart from the odd question about how I qualified for right of abode, I have never faced any difficulty with this arrangement at passport control.
I was born in 1967 in Australia to British born parents and as a child travelled on my mother's UK passport. I obtained an Australian passport in 1976 and moved to the UK on a patriality certificate. I have moved back and forth between UK and Australia every few years ever since, including on certificates in old passports.

You are British. You may apply for confirmation of British citizenship or a British passport.

Your British citizenship/right of abode does not expire, although the certificate or passport may.

It is strange that the certificate's validity is within the passport's validity, unlike ILRs. This didn't matter much when previously the certificate may be transferred for free from one passport to another.

Hi Vinny,

The Home Office phone advisers say if the certificate of entitlement is not transferred to the new passport then ROA is not valid any more. I was inquiring with regards if a child is born in the UK to a man having ROA on an expired passport would be a British citizen. The Home Office says now.

[vinny]

Like a British passport, the issue of a CoE-RoA does not confer the RoA status, it is merely evidence of it.

Therefore, the expiry of the CoE-RoA should not affect a person's RoA status.

But note that, with respect to a non-British Commonwealth citizen, a person's RoA may be restricted or deprived.

[Raj5]

Like a British passport, the issue of a CoE-RoA does not convey the RoA status, it is merely evidence of it.

Therefore, the expiry of the CoE-RoA should not affect a person's RoA status.

But note that, with respect to a non-British Commonwealth citizen, a person's RoA may be restricted or deprived.

Thank you Vinny. So you think under the circumstances the child born will automatically be a British citizen?