UK passport to UK born Polish girl

[chorry]

Hello.

We have just been trying to get for our daughter a UK passport.

I came to the UK in March 2006. Started work on 22 May 2006 (this is what it says on my WRS certificate). She was born on 20 April 2011.

I applied online - paid - sent the required documents.
Got reply - asking to prove the 5 years, so all payslips, P60s, WRS. I did send it all together with two letters (one from my employer saying that I had my job interview in March 2006, and the other from a friend who helped me getting this job as well dated March 2006, its a official letter with letter head from Polish - English communication company).

I described that I came here with intentions to stay, live have Family etc. I also had this job agreed. I was self sufficient before I started my employment.

They replied asking for evidenced of me being self sufficient. Like ie valid EHIC card (non UK issued), private health insurance, bank statements, letter from DWP saying I wasn't receiving any benefits.
I called DWP and they kindly helped me and sent even two letters confirming 'no benefits'.
I didn't have any private insurance, I don't have bank statements from this time as it was impossible to open bank account before starting a job etc (I remember, I even needed a letter from my employer when opening a bank account) and it is also impossible to have a VALID EHIC card (non UK one) in 2015 which was issued in 2006 (they are valid for 5 years).

That was more less my explanation. I also mentioned, we haven't been applying before as I thought that it was the WRS (job start) date that matters. Until I read some threads (I think it might even have been on this forum) about a lady who had very similar case and was 'missing' a one month to 5 years period but could prove her job interviews. As we can. - her application was approved, successful.

I could understand this case and making problems with proving self sufficiency if it was a matter of several months. Here we are talking about not even two. And what if I was living with a friend? Had nothing to pay at all, no rent, no bills, he would had fed me? Simply - helped me? My case I was renting one room, bills included. Very cheap. I only had myself to support for few weeks before I started my employment.

It would all be easy if she was born a month later.

Today I received reply saying that they are unable to established that I was self sufficient prior to commencing work.
There is also a mistake, they quote date 19 June 2006 that I was registered on the Workers Registration Scheme (but this is a date of issue). Its pretty poor, whoever looks at my documents and just takes dates. For me it makes a difference as it adds another month and the DWP gave me a proof of not taking any benefits for period of March to end May 2006.

Please help, advise if there is anything else I could do? They say I could consult this with United Kingdom Visa and Immigration Department, Home Office...?

Thank you for you help, suggestions.
Tom

[noajthan]

Hello.

We have just been trying to get for our daughter a UK passport.

I came to the UK in March 2006. Started work on 22 May 2006 (this is what it says on my WRS certificate). She was born on 20 April 2011.

I applied online - paid - sent the required documents.

...

I could understand this case and making problems with proving self sufficiency if it was a matter of several months. Here we are talking about not even two. And what if I was living with a friend? Had nothing to pay at all, no rent, no bills, he would had fed me? Simply - helped me? My case I was renting one room, bills included. Very cheap. I only had myself to support for few weeks before I started my employment.

It would all be easy if she was born a month later.

Today I received reply saying that they are unable to established that I was self sufficient prior to commencing work.
There is also a mistake, they quote date 19 June 2006 that I was registered on the Workers Registration Scheme (but this is a date of issue). Its pretty poor, whoever looks at my documents and just takes dates. For me it makes a difference as it adds another month and the DWP gave me a proof of not taking any benefits for period of March to end May 2006.

Please help, advise if there is anything else I could do? They say I could consult this with United Kingdom Visa and Immigration Department, Home Office...?

Thank you for you help, suggestions.
Tom

It may be that you can argue your status was initially that of a 'job-seeker' rather than a 'self-sufficient person' in early 2006.

Can you also obtain a letter from Polish authorities to confirm whether you were still covered by the Polish healthcare system in 2006 (if you don't have a record of any EHIC card from that time).

Also note that permanent-residence rules only came in on 30 April 2006 which may or may not be significant in your case.
Ref: http://www.airecentre.org/data/files/EE ... r_2013.pdf

Suggest contacting 'Aire Centre' for advice - they can offer free written advice to EEA nationals, see:
http://www.airecentre.org/pages/get-advice.html

Good luck.

[noajthan]

Tom,
hopefully you can appeal this decision and have it reconsidered.

'Worst case', under section 1(3) of the BNA, your daughter will still be eligible to be registered as a UK citizen once you as parents become settled - i.e. at any time now or in the future.
Ref: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... e_2015.pdf

Even if you don't become settled she can still register as a UK citizen [under 1(4) of BNA] after living her first 10 years in UK.

[noajthan]

This guide is clear & may help; your WRS commences from date of work not from the date of issue of WRS document;
so the HO are incorrect to refer to date of issue;

See para 9.19
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... Policy.pdf

Calculating the qualifying period
9.19 When counting the 5 years qualifying period, this should be taken from the date on which the employment started (rather than the date the card was issued) if the EU8 national applied to register within the 30 days window even if the card was issued later

It may be you actually started work earlier than the date shown on the WRS
Do you have any other evidence of your start date of first UK employment?
- perhaps in a job offer type of letter from your employer or in your employment contract?
Or can you get confirmation from your employer of what was your start date?

Sections 4.1, 4.4 & 4.5 also seem relevant as they discuss the rules for job seekers & those between jobs.

Regarding CSI, if you don't have an EHIC card (or any supporting letter from Polish authorities), do you have any of the other CSI proofs mentioned?

See 6.6: S1, S2, S3 forms (etc)

[noajthan]

Extension of WRS from 2009 until 2011 was "illegal" so you may want to track this thread on that:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... 81910.html

[Julian11]

I would get a letter from Poland showing you are covered, but yes, you can also try to go for the jobseeker route for those early days rather than self-sufficient.

[chorry]

Hello again,

Thank you everybody for your answers.

I would get a letter from Poland showing you are covered, but yes, you can also try to go for the jobseeker route for those early days rather than self-sufficient.

Regarding to job seeker status. When I came here I knew I was going to have this job. It was just a matter of having to wait. It was something agreed and I had to come and just basically 'show' myself that yes, this was me, I exist. Formality.

To get a job seeker status should I have been registered at Job Centre? What in this case now, when I have said I was self sufficient. I can't really change my mind now, I could possibly suggest - play words in terms of 'what if I was job seeker not self sufficient for this couple of weeks before commencing my employment?' ?

I can try contacting Polish health services asking them for some proofs. But then even if the agreed to help it would possibly be in Polish language, then to have it translated into English via a proper translator/interpreter... not sure...

This guide is clear & may help; your WRS commences from date of work not from the date of issue of WRS document;
so the HO are incorrect to refer to date of issue;

Regarding CSI, if you don't have an EHIC card (or any supporting letter from Polish authorities), do you have any of the other CSI proofs mentioned?

See 6.6: S1, S2, S3 forms (etc)

I know they did that wrong, which I suppose is good for me as it also confirms the person who was dealing with my application was close to zero in regards to her competence. Maybe she messed up some other bits as well???

Other CSI proofs they asked was a confirmation from DWP Work and Pensions, about me not claiming any benefits in this period, which I supplied them with.

Suggest contacting 'Aire Centre' for advice - they can offer free written advice to EEA nationals, see:
http://www.airecentre.org/pages/get-advice.html

I quite like this idea, seems like really worth trying. But even if they agree with my and my facts, how would they help?

Tom

[jaweb]

[quote="noajthan"]This guide is clear & may help; your WRS commences from date of work not from the date of issue of WRS document;



On the wrs it does say when you started to work also says the issue date

[jaweb]

When I applied for my older boy they have asked everything from me. Letter from dwp, or letters from councils where I lived in the 5 year period.
Maybe the best would be to get your PR card first then to apply for passport. I applied at the same time and thanks to God I got it very quickly and sent it to hmpo and printed the passport same day

[vinny]

I came to the UK in March 2006. Started work on 22 May 2006 (this is what it says on my WRS certificate). She was born on 20 April 2011.

They appeared to have forgotten that you have the initial right of residence within 3 months of initial entry. There was no requirement to be a qualified person during that time.

[noajthan]

Hello again,

Thank you everybody for your answers.

I would get a letter from Poland showing you are covered, but yes, you can also try to go for the jobseeker route for those early days rather than self-sufficient.

Regarding to job seeker status. When I came here I knew I was going to have this job. It was just a matter of having to wait. It was something agreed and I had to come and just basically 'show' myself that yes, this was me, I exist. Formality.

To get a job seeker status should I have been registered at Job Centre? What in this case now, when I have said I was self sufficient. I can't really change my mind now, I could possibly suggest - play words in terms of 'what if I was job seeker not self sufficient for this couple of weeks before commencing my employment?' ?

I can try contacting Polish health services asking them for some proofs. But then even if the agreed to help it would possibly be in Polish language, then to have it translated into English via a proper translator/interpreter... not sure...

...

I know they did that wrong, which I suppose is good for me as it also confirms the person who was dealing with my application was close to zero in regards to her competence. Maybe she messed up some other bits as well???

Other CSI proofs they asked was a confirmation from DWP Work and Pensions, about me not claiming any benefits in this period, which I supplied them with.

Suggest contacting 'Aire Centre' for advice - they can offer free written advice to EEA nationals, see:
http://www.airecentre.org/pages/get-advice.html

I quite like this idea, seems like really worth trying. But even if they agree with my and my facts, how would they help?

Tom

[noajthan]

Tom,
in reply to above...

The worst case is you can always achieve PR now (based on your residence & work in UK to date) and now register your daughter as British using form MN1 (at HO discretion).

Otherwise, because your end date for automatic entitlement to daughter's citizenship is fixed by your chid's date of birth, you clearly need to work on the start date for your claim under treaty rights.

If you can show that Polish healthcare somehow covered you even when first in UK (even without holding a Polish EHIC or similar card) that will help you prove 'self-sufficiency'.

If a letter from DWP is enough to show you weren't relying on state benefits it's a shame that a copy of your medical record can't be used to show you weren't an unnecessary load on the NHS at that time

2nd strategy is to make a case that your early months were as a 'job seeker'.
Being registered at Job Centre is one acceptable proof but it seems there are others.
Surely the letters back & forth with your future employer are evidence of job-seeking in terms of finalising the job offer.
Can you see if the HR department of that first company has copies of all correspondence with you, also the contract, etc.
(Try a 'data protecion' enquiry to them - they may charge a small fee for that).

Contacting the Aire Centre (or other adviser) will help if they can offer advice on the strength of your case and which path to pursue.
It's significant that the officials have alreasy made mistakes over key dates in your case.

Then once you have gathered enough supporting facts & evidence (documents) to support your case you can reapply.

Just because you applied once before on basis of self-sufficiency I don't think it stops you reapplying on another basis (job-seeking).
Again the legal advice (from Aire, or a migrants support group or local CAB or immigration lawyer, etc) will help you move forwards.

One other option for information & fact gathering would be to apply for 'confirmation of nationality status' for your daughter.
See https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... us-form-ns

Good luck.

[noajthan]

I came to the UK in March 2006. Started work on 22 May 2006 (this is what it says on my WRS certificate). She was born on 20 April 2011.

They appeared to have forgotten that you have the initial right of residence within 3 months of initial entry. There was no requirement to be a qualified person during that time.

Vinny,
there is a FOI (www.whatdotheyknow.com) question on this precise point.

The reply from the official refuted it by saying something like:
the 5-years clock only starts from date of WRS certificate and not from date of first entry into UK.
So they didn't recognise the concept of a grace period.

I will post the link once I find it again.

[noajthan]

They appeared to have forgotten that you have the initial right of residence within 3 months of initial entry. There was no requirement to be a qualified person during that time.

Vinny,
there is a FOI (http://www.whatdotheyknow.com) question on this precise point.

...

I will post the link once I find it again.

See https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... aty_rights

... needs to exercise Treaty Rights continuously till the time of divorce since the couple landed in UK to apply PR for the non-EEA spouse.

1) when you say continuously, it's not possible to start working immediately from the day EEA spouse landed in UK i.e. It takes
time, initial 2/3 months to settle and arrange permanent accommodation, address proof then apply for National Insurance
number, then get a job. All these takes few months to start job.

How long since the EEA member landed first in UK does home office consider it?
Say if he/she start working after 2-3 months of first landing in UK, will it be considered continuous employment?
Will it affect the continuity of exercising treaty rights as worker while applying PR?

[vinny]

That doesn't make any sense. It seems contrary to the definition of PR in the EEA regulations. Moreover, only a worker required WRS then. A qualified person may be other than a worker.

(1) The following persons shall acquire the right to reside in the United Kingdom permanently—

(a)an EEA national who has resided in the United Kingdom in accordance with these Regulations for a continuous period of five years;

Are they disputing that residing under Regulation 13 is residing in accordance with these Regulations?

[Torex]

The Passport Office is wrong about asking you to provide evidence of CSI.
The CSI requirement was introduced on 20 June 2011.

So there is no need for you to worry about CSI.
Again Home Office shows how incompetent they are.
You must know your rights and fight with them.

From 20th June 2011 EEA nationals applying for documentation confirming their right to reside in the UK as a student or self-
sufficient person must present one of the following forms of evidence in order to demonstrate comprehensive sickness insurance.

Comprehensive Sickness Insurance

[noajthan]

That doesn't make any sense. It seems contrary to the definition of PR in the EEA regulations. Moreover, only a worker required WRS then. A qualified person may be other than a worker.

(1) The following persons shall acquire the right to reside in the United Kingdom permanently—

(a)an EEA national who has resided in the United Kingdom in accordance with these Regulations for a continuous period of five years;

Are they disputing that residing under Regulation 13 is residing in accordance with these Regulations?

The official was quite clear in their reply of 14 August 2014:

European nationals are entitled to reside in the United Kingdom for an initial period of three months without needing to exercise a Treaty Right.
A European national who will be in the United Kingdom for more than three months will have a right of residence for as long as they remain a qualified person exercising a Treaty Right.

For a retained rights of residence permanent residence application, the onus is on the applicant to determine when their qualifying period for permanent residence starts. This means that the applicant will need to provide sufficient evidence to prove that the European national was exercising Treaty Rights in the United Kingdom from the start of that qualifying period to support the application.

For retained rights PR they (in this FOI reply at least) are putting the onus on the applicant to prove a start date.
It seems to mean separately from date of entry into UK & regardless of any initial period (up to 3 months) in UK.

Ofcourse this wasn't a reply the poster received in this case here. But it indicates one interpretation being used in the Croydon processing office.

[boloney]

Tom,
in reply to above...

The worst case is you can always achieve PR now (based on your residence & work in UK to date) and now register your daughter as British using form MN1 (at HO discretion).

child was born in the UK. Why would you say registration is as HO discretion? Registration is expensive so he wanna avoid it.

[noajthan]

Tom,
in reply to above...

The worst case is you can always achieve PR now (based on your residence & work in UK to date) and now register your daughter as British using form MN1 (at HO discretion).

child was born in the UK. Why would you say registration is as HO discretion? Registration is expensive so he wanna avoid it.

I was bearing in mind the following as a 'worst case' (yes, it costs), but still a route to citzenship;
From MN1 guide (June 2015):

The child of an EA national who did not become a British citizen at birth may now have an entitlement to be registered as a British citizen under section 1(3), if the parent has since become “settled” here.
The parent will have become "settled” if she has been granted indefinite leave in the United Kingdom, or
He or she has been exercising EEA free movement rights in the United Kingdom for a continuous period of five years ending on or after 3o April 2006.

- note the use of "may now have ..."

And even if the parents do not become settled a child born in UK can still be registered after living ten years in UK under 1(4) of BNA.

Hopefully the nonsense received from HO about PR can be overcome in this case and it will be a straightforward entitlement to passport.

[secret.simon]

The Passport Office is wrong about asking you to provide evidence of CSI.
The CSI requirement was introduced on 20 June 2011.

So there is no need for you to worry about CSI.
Again Home Office shows how incompetent they are.
You must know your rights and fight with them.

From 20th June 2011 EEA nationals applying for documentation confirming their right to reside in the UK as a student or self-
sufficient person must present one of the following forms of evidence in order to demonstrate comprehensive sickness insurance.

Comprehensive Sickness Insurance

That is incorrect. Since the EEA Regulations were enacted in 2006, there has been a requirement for students and self-sufficient persons to have CSI. The link that you provide is a reminder to caseworkers to apply that requirement when EEA citizens first became eligible to apply for PR (5 years after the EEA Regulations came into force). It does not create the requirement, but is merely a reminder of a pre-existing requirement.

The worst case is you can always achieve PR now (based on your residence & work in UK to date) and now register your daughter as British using form MN1 (at HO discretion).

As the child is born in the UK, if s/he needs registration, it will be under Section 1(3), which is an entitlement to registration and is not at HO discretion.

[boloney]

Tom,
in reply to above...

The worst case is you can always achieve PR now (based on your residence & work in UK to date) and now register your daughter as British using form MN1 (at HO discretion).

child was born in the UK. Why would you say registration is as HO discretion? Registration is expensive so he wanna avoid it.

I was bearing in mind the following as a 'worst case' (yes, it costs), but still a route to citzenship;
From MN1 guide (June 2015):

The child of an EA national who did not become a British citizen at birth may now have an entitlement to be registered as a British citizen under section 1(3), if the parent has since become “settled” here.
The parent will have become "settled” if she has been granted indefinite leave in the United Kingdom, or
He or she has been exercising EEA free movement rights in the United Kingdom for a continuous period of five years ending on or after 3o April 2006.

- note the use of "may now have ..."

And even if the parents do not become settled a child born in UK can still be registered after living ten years in UK under 1(4) of BNA.

Hopefully the nonsense received from HO about PR can be overcome in this case and it will be a straightforward entitlement to passport.

child was born in the UK so if one of the parents is settlet she can be registered as BC and HO can't do nothing.