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refusal help - URGENT

Only for the UK Skilled Worker visas, formerly known as Tier 2 visa route

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dialectic
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refusal help - URGENT

Post by dialectic » Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:47 am

Hi. I would love your insights on this

I got a refusal letter yesterday. Here's my story

1. After graduating from a Visual Arts degree in my home country I spent around 5 years working as a web and multimedia designer developer. I also worked on entertainment events on the side.

2. I quit my job in my home country and entered the UK as an MBA student on early 2012

3. After finishing my degree I got an offer as an arts/audio producer for an entertainment company and switched to tier 2 on mid 2013.

4. Through the whole time I kept being active on my design web skills and was (from time to time) applying for jobs and working on multimedia projects on the side. Looking for opportunities on this field

5. On late 2014 my sponsor's license was suspended which encouraged me to look actively for other jobs and switch to the multimedia field which is my main field anyway.

6. On early 2015 I was interviewed and got a job offer from a creative agency for a web and multimedia position. They were happy with my background and agreed to get a tier 2 license and go through the recruitment process again in order to sponsor me. During that time, the entertainment company sponsoring me got their license revoked, so I was really hoping things would turn out for the best with this new opportunity in a new company that wanted to sponsor me.

7. I was assigned a CoS (change of employment, a different SOC code) and I applied on early June using priority service. I knew that I was switching professions so I got reference/recommendation letters from previous employers and co-workers from my home country and people from the field that are familiar with my work and skills to go with the application. Then I got a letter from UKVI after 2 weeks of applying stating that my case was complex and that they could not meet the 10 working day decision timeline.

8. Finally got a refusal letter, was granted points for language and maintenance, but no points on sponsorship. They stated that I didn't include a degree that showed that I had qualifications for this role with a different SOC code. They also mentioned that the recommendation letters showed that I had experience in the field but that I didn't have experience that was recent, as I haven't worked in the field since 2012 when I entered the UK as an MBA student and switched to tier 2 on another profession (production). They also mention that due to this the vacancy could be considered as not genuine

9. To this day I never received a curtailment letter regarding the revocation of my previous employer, so I don't know where I stand regarding my leave.

QUESTIONS:

1. Is there any way around this? Would my Visual Arts degree help in an admin review?
2. I know my background is pretty varied, but I have always been working on different fields simoultaneusly and being multiskilled has been one of the main things that have helped me when it comes to the opportunities that I have had, including this one.

I am quite disappointed and feeling helpless. Any info or advice would help. Including previous experiences and recommendations on solicitors that could sort this.

Thanks in advance

dialectic
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Posts: 141
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by dialectic » Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:12 pm

Any insights? Sorry, I'm quite worried

Thanks

talk2ram.28
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by talk2ram.28 » Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:57 pm

What was your original SOC and what was the new SOC for which you applied?

dialectic
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by dialectic » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:09 pm

talk2ram.28 wrote:What was your original SOC and what was the new SOC for which you applied?
old 3416 - Art producers
new 2137 - Web Design and development professionals

The new sponsor company is a creative agency where the 'creative flair' was an advantage along with the tech skills I have. I know it seems like a jump but as I mentioned those are part of my set of skills and the creative fields normally require this kind of multidisciplinary approach. It is normal for people to be able to do audio, video, web, etc. and sometimes the mixture of those skills is what gets you the job.

talk2ram.28
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by talk2ram.28 » Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:00 pm

According to UKBA this is a drastic change in 'profession' which is very tough for them to approve unless you have compelling evidence.
From an outsider point of view you have changed from art,producer, director field to IT!!!

dialectic
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by dialectic » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:01 am

talk2ram.28 wrote:According to UKBA this is a drastic change in 'profession' which is very tough for them to approve unless you have compelling evidence.
From an outsider point of view you have changed from art,producer, director field to IT!!!
Well I do have experience in the field (more than 5 years). Their objection is that is not 'recent'. The company that wants to hire me is a Creative productions agency as well, and as I mentioned the set of technical skills paired with the creative flair is what set me apart. I am moving to a similar company but to role that requires web/multimedia skills. The approach however is of a creative vision.

During my time as a producer I built websites and multimedia pieces for personal projects and took part in unpaid internships/job experience. Would this be helpful in order to apply for admin review?

dialectic
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by dialectic » Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:29 pm

Anyone thinks there is a way around this?

manci
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by manci » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:41 am

I think this may well be a case for asking for Administrative Review but it would be advisable to have professional assistance in formulating the request. Presumably the refusal letter included the AR option and gave a time limit.

dialectic
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by dialectic » Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:54 pm

manci wrote:I think this may well be a case for asking for Administrative Review but it would be advisable to have professional assistance in formulating the request. Presumably the refusal letter included the AR option and gave a time limit.
Thanks a lot for your reply Manci. Yes, the letter stated the option of Admin Review. It states that the time limit is 14 calendar days since the day I received the letter. The letter has 19 of June as the date of the decision, but I received the letter and signed acknowledging the delivery on June 24th. Should I assume that the 14 calendar days start on the 24th? Which date would be the deadline for me if that's the case?

I would also like to know whether anyone has gone through similar circumstances and what the outcome could be. I will try to find assistance soon and do my best to sort it out.

Thanks again

manci
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by manci » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:40 pm

dialectic wrote:
manci wrote:I think this may well be a case for asking for Administrative Review but it would be advisable to have professional assistance in formulating the request. Presumably the refusal letter included the AR option and gave a time limit.
Thanks a lot for your reply Manci. Yes, the letter stated the option of Admin Review. It states that the time limit is 14 calendar days since the day I received the letter. The letter has 19 of June as the date of the decision, but I received the letter and signed acknowledging the delivery on June 24th. Should I assume that the 14 calendar days start on the 24th? Which date would be the deadline for me if that's the case?

I would also like to know whether anyone has gone through similar circumstances and what the outcome could be. I will try to find assistance soon and do my best to sort it out.

Thanks again
see the guidance:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _0_ext.pdf
What is the time limit for applying for administrative review?
For in country decisions, 14 calendar days from the date the applicant receives the notice or biometric residence permit[/

Vandu Murugan
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by Vandu Murugan » Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:52 pm

Hi Manci,

I'm also in the same situation. But I have not applied still. Planning to apply soon. My present designation is under SOC 3545 but I need to change to SOC 2139. Is this dramatic change in occupation according to UKBA? I have previous experience under SOC code 2139. What should I do now? I need to change my occupation. Please help me. I do not want to get rejected. What are the steps do I need to take in order to get succeed.

Thanks
Vandu

manci
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by manci » Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:49 pm

Vandu Murugan wrote:Hi Manci,

I'm also in the same situation. But I have not applied still. Planning to apply soon. My present designation is under SOC 3545 but I need to change to SOC 2139. Is this dramatic change in occupation according to UKBA? I have previous experience under SOC code 2139. What should I do now? I need to change my occupation. Please help me. I do not want to get rejected. What are the steps do I need to take in order to get succeed.

Thanks
Vandu
read para 39 in the T2 policy guide and when you apply address the genuine vacancy point in a covering letter and send documents in support
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... 4_2015.pdf

Vandu Murugan
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by Vandu Murugan » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:09 pm

Hi Manci

Great. Thanks for your help. They mentioned like "request additional information and evidence from you or your sponsor, and refuse your application if the information or evidence is not provided. Any requested documents must be received by the Home Office at the address specified in the request within 28 calendar days of the date the request letter is posted."

What kind of evidence require in order to prove I'm appropriately qualified to undertake, the role for which the Certificate of Sponsorship was assigned.


Regards
Vandu

dialectic
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by dialectic » Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:06 pm

manci wrote:I think this may well be a case for asking for Administrative Review but it would be advisable to have professional assistance in formulating the request. Presumably the refusal letter included the AR option and gave a time limit.
I am planning on submitting a request for AR using professional help. A solicitor has seen my mark/grades/notes transcripts and Visual Arts qualification from Uni where the Multimedia subjects are mentioned ( everything translated to english by an official translator). He has also seen work samples, including personal projects and unpaid work experience that I undertook both as a student and during my time as a tier 2 sponsored arts producer. I have constantly looked for a Web/Multimedia job using these samples. I certainly showed these samples to my prospective employer and also did a trial in order to have my skills assessed. The solicitor said that it would have been a good idea to send my University transcripts and work samples on my initial application, but I didn't as it was not a requirement.

I am afraid that AR is done online and even if I mention this I won't be able to send my transcripts and work samples/links to work as an evidence.

I am also scared that if I mention that I have been keeping my skills up to date with personal projects, unpaid work, internships and so on would raise an issue of me being in breach of immigration rules during my time as a producer by engaging on work as a web/multimedia designer even if it is unpaid.

I guess I should have included my student qualifications and work samples on the initial application. As I mentioned, I always show my samples, portfolio and CV to prospective employers and in this case they helped me get the job and the sponsorship. I assumed that the UKVI would trust the sponsor's judgement. I showed my skills to the company and since that resulted in a CoS being assigned to me I assumed UKVI would be OK with that, or at least ask me for qualifications/samples/evidence in order to make sure instead of refusing my application straight away...

Is there a way of submitting this evidence (University transcripts/work samples) somehow? I know AR doesn't allow submitting new evidence, but the evidence of my skills is important and there should be a way of showing this.

Thanks a lot for your insights.

manci
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by manci » Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:36 pm

dialectic wrote:
I am also scared that if I mention that I have been keeping my skills up to date with personal projects, unpaid work, internships and so on would raise an issue of me being in breach of immigration rules during my time as a producer by engaging on work as a web/multimedia designer even if it is unpaid.
keep in mind that the rules don't allow any work besides the sponsored employment except as described in paras 227 and 228 of the T2 policy guidance:
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=tier+2+policy


I am afraid that AR is done online and even if I mention this I won't be able to send my transcripts and work samples/links to work as an evidence.
if you cannot submit documents describe them in detail. If UKVI want to see them they'll ask. You are given an opportunity to set out why you think a mistake was made by UKVI. Hope your solicitor will make out a good case for overturning the decision.

dialectic
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by dialectic » Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:56 pm

manci wrote:
dialectic wrote:
I am also scared that if I mention that I have been keeping my skills up to date with personal projects, unpaid work, internships and so on would raise an issue of me being in breach of immigration rules during my time as a producer by engaging on work as a web/multimedia designer even if it is unpaid.
keep in mind that the rules don't allow any work besides the sponsored employment except as described in paras 227 and 228 of the T2 policy guidance:
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=tier+2+policy


I am afraid that AR is done online and even if I mention this I won't be able to send my transcripts and work samples/links to work as an evidence.
if you cannot submit documents describe them in detail. If UKVI want to see them they'll ask. You are given an opportunity to set out why you think a mistake was made by UKVI. Hope your solicitor will make out a good case for overturning the decision.

Hi Manci. I greatly appreciate your help. I would like to comment and ask a couple of questions that would be vital/extremely important in order to make a decision, but first I want to refer to the guidance relating voluntary work

14.You cannot take employment, except:

• working for the sponsor in the job recorded on your Certificate of Sponsorship; and
• supplementary employment; and
• voluntary work; and
• you have been granted leave in the Tier 2 (Sportsperson) category, and you are playing
for your national side whilst you are in the UK or doing temporary additional work as a
sports broadcaster.



And also….


Voluntary work

228.You can also undertake voluntary work in ANY sector. You must not be paid for your work, other than the reasonable expenses outlined in section 44 of the National Minimum Wage Act, detailed at http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1998/uk ... 80039_en_1.


Regarding this I have been keeping my Web/Multimedia skills and knowledge up to date with voluntary work. I can do it in any sector as the rules state. Work samples from this voluntary work have been presented to my prospective employers as a sample of my skills and have helped me in getting good feedback and the job offer/sponsorship in question

Apart from voluntary work I have also done personal projects that have helped me in keeping my skills up to date and have not interfere with my main duties as a tier 2 worker doing production work. So, according to this the voluntary work I have done is according to the rules and I am not in breach.

Now I want to refer to the guidance regarding administrative review:
FROM THE ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEW GUIDANCE https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _final.pdf

AR2.4 The Reviewer will not consider any evidence that was not before the original decision maker except where evidence that was not before the original decision maker is submitted to demonstrate that a case working error as defined in paragraph AR2.11 (a), and (b) has been made.


According to this, I cannot submit any additional evidence if I go through administrative review: The evidence that I have could be the following:

1. The CV that I used to apply for the job that is being offered to me in question. In this CV there is a mention of my voluntary work experience during both my MBA student time and also as a Producer with my previous sponsorship
2. Work samples of websites/multimedia pieces done during those voluntary work experiences, and also personal projects that I have done for myself and that I have presented to various job interviews for Web/Multimedia positions, including this one in question. Also, Work samples that I did as trials or as a showcase of my skills for this specific job in question
3. A certified English translation of my 2006 Visual Arts degree certificate and notes/grades transcripts. There is the "Multimedia" subject/class across 2 periods
4. Work samples from my experience as a Web/Multimedia Designer before coming to the UK (2006-2012)
5. I might be able to ask my prospective employers a letter to state that they are aware of my experience and that they saw the former work samples.
6. I might be able to ask previous employers of my voluntary work experience for reference letters
(Some of my work samples are available on my personal server and/or on my website)

The administrative review seems to have the function of pointing out mistakes of the original decision maker. Not supplying the evidence that I just listed during my initial application could be considered my mistake and not theirs… Also, I cannot send any new evidence through Admin Review as it has been stated before.

------
I spoke to two solicitors. One is willing to do the Admin Review and says I have a case when it comes to me actually having the skills for the job.

The second solicitor stated that taking the Admin Review was a formality and that they will surely refuse again stating the same reasons. He also said that doing the Admin review was good anyways and that it should be done in order to keep them from pointing out that I didn’t take the opportunity to respond. He also mentioned judicial review after getting the refusal from the admin review to challenge the decision. He also mentioned the possibility of making a fresh application at any time. Getting a new CoS and applying again which in my case, is possible.


Now, here’s the most important question:

My prospective employers are really supportive of me and really want me as I fit and work well. But they can’t wait for me too much as the position needs to be filled and there might be changes in the company structure soon that can make things more difficult. I am also waiting for a curtailment letter due to my previous company revocation. I know about previous co-workers that are starting to receive their curtailment letters. So time is running out.

Would it be advisable to get a second CoS assigned and make a new application now using premium service, attaching the documents that I listed below and adding a cover letter explaining everything regarding the previous refusal and me actually having the skills for the job? Or Should I go through the Admin Review describing my skills/documents in detail as you mention Maybe including links to my work samples) and hope for the best? Going through the Admin Review/Judicial Review process seems to be lengthy and I am scared about losing the job. I am also scared about them not being able to take my work samples as documentary evidence.

Please, if you could shed some light on this I would really appreciate it. The risk I take from now on is quite high not only regarding a lot of money and debts that I could not cover without a job, but also about a future in which I have put a lot of time and effort in.
Last, I am sorry about this long post…

Thanks

dialectic
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by dialectic » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:30 am

Hi Manci

I know my previous reply post is quite long. But I am trying to cover every detail in order to make a right decision and it is very stressful

I would really appreciate your thoughts on this and anything that would shed some light on which path to take would be a huge help

Thanks again

dialectic
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by dialectic » Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:09 pm

Anyone?
Please?

dialectic
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by dialectic » Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:12 pm

Anyone?
Please?

talk2ram.28
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by talk2ram.28 » Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:16 pm

In my view admin review is a better option than going for second COS (if its still for SOC 2137). The reason is that your second application will be directly rejected as your circumstance has not changed since last application. The only thing you have is 'extra' evidence which you can very well explain neatly if you take help of a good solicitor in admin review.
Alternatively if you want to apply again for a Tier 2 try to find one offering job for skills under your current SOC code.

manci
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by manci » Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:39 pm

@dialectic
As you haven't received the curtailment letter yet you will have a min. of 60 days leave left.

Only you can assess the situation within the company but if time is critical a new application with a new CoS and a set of new supporting documents would probably be quicker if you use the priority service. The case is not straightforward therefore I don't think it wouldn't be suitable for the same-day premium service. In any case, you would be well advised to use a competent solicitor to make out a case in a covering letter that, hopefully, will result in a grant of leave and not a refusal.

manci
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by manci » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:13 pm

manci wrote:@dialectic
As you haven't received the curtailment letter yet you will have a min. of 60 days leave left.

Only you can assess the situation within the company but if time is critical a new application with a new CoS and a set of new supporting documents would probably be quicker if you use the priority service. The case is not straightforward therefore I don't think it would be suitable for the same-day premium service. In any case, you would be well advised to use a competent solicitor to make out a case in a covering letter that, hopefully, will result in a grant of leave and not a refusal.

dialectic
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by dialectic » Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:46 pm

manci wrote:@dialectic
As you haven't received the curtailment letter yet you will have a min. of 60 days leave left.

Only you can assess the situation within the company but if time is critical a new application with a new CoS and a set of new supporting documents would probably be quicker if you use the priority service. The case is not straightforward therefore I don't think it wouldn't be suitable for the same-day premium service. In any case, you would be well advised to use a competent solicitor to make out a case in a covering letter that, hopefully, will result in a grant of leave and not a refusal.
@manci

Thanks a lot for your insights. I really appreciate it since the case is not simple as you mentioned. A couple of thoughts:

1. Solicitors that I have visited state that the Admin Review is a formality and that it normally ends with a rejection stating the same reasons from the first refusal. However, it's been mentioned to me that doing the admin review in addition to a fresh application would be a good thing as it is a sign that you took the opportunity to respond. Is this the case in your opinion?

3. Regarding the type of service. I went through a 10 day priority service while applying this time and got a letter stating that they needed more time to assess as the case was complex, so they took a bit more time anyway and I assume the same will happen while reapplying (?) It's been also mentioned to me that going through premium and attending in person would give me a chance to explain the situation and that this could be an advantage. What are your thoughts on this?
I went through priority since I didn't want to go premium and be interviewed, get nervous, etc. so I don't know if this is worth it (?)

Part of my refusal letter goes as follows:

Your Cerificate of sponsorship states that your prospective employment as a Multimedia/Web Designer with COMPANY XX corresponds to occupation code 2137 on the Home Office codes of practice for Sponsors (which are also specified under Appendix J of the immigration rules).

- However you have not provided any educational document to show you have the relevant qualifications to assume the position

- Also, you have not shown you have recent work experience as a Multimedia / Web Designer since:

*On XX February 2012 you were granted leave to enter the UK as a student to study the award of an MBA
*You were subsequently granted leave to remain until X July 2016 to work as an Art Officer & Producer for COMPANY YYY
*Although you have provided references to indicate that you have had experience working in the field, they do not however indicate that these experiences were recent. We are also unable to accept these references as documentary evidence

The secretary of State is therefore refusing your application because there are reasonable grounds to believe the job described in your CoS is not a genuine vacancy, when assessing on the balance of probabilities, paragraph 245H(f) with reference to Appendix A paragraph 77H



4. Needless to say, the job is a genuine vacancy and my skills were tested before I got an offer. However, when it comes to new supporting documents for a fresh application I am scared of the possibility of UKI not accepting them as documentary evidence, since apart from my 2006 Visual Arts certificate and notes transcripts with Multimedia classes from my home country I could also show work samples, CV, portfolio, a recommendation letter from voluntary work and try to persuade them that I have been working towards a job in this field for a while. I don't know which other type of documentation could be appropriate for this (?)

This has been very helpful. Many thanks

dialectic
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by dialectic » Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:24 am

Quick question

Am I allowed to submit an admin review and make a fresh application with that admin review pending?

Do I need to withdraw the admin review before making a new application?

Is there any info on the guidance regarding this? Can you point that to me?

Thanks

manci
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Re: refusal help - URGENT

Post by manci » Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:36 pm

dialectic wrote:Quick question

Am I allowed to submit an admin review and make a fresh application with that admin review pending?

Do I need to withdraw the admin review before making a new application?

Is there any info on the guidance regarding this? Can you point that to me?

Thanks
the guidance is here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _0_ext.pdf

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