Wife to be dual national could any1 help EEA OR FLRM

[Uzzybhatti]

Universal soldier wrote:
Before anybody can advise I think it's better that you tell that on what grounds you applied PR? Did you had ROR before PR application? I think it maybe possible that you may get some rights from first marriage and might not even need to apply another residence permit from 2nd marriage. Tell fully the grounds on that basis you applied PR and what was your 1st wife was doing and how many years??

I came to uk in 2007 on a student visa and than i got married with a member of EEA national and it HO 18 months to grant me 5 year residence permit which expired this year but during my 5 years of marriage my ex wife juat paid taxes for first year and the rest all year ahe never paid and tax or either national insurance but i had been working and paying all
My taxes but when we got seprated she
Moved back to her country and i was here than i had to apply for my PR even after divorce but HO need her proof of paying taxes which i cant but i had sent them
All bills and council tax and all the evidence for all those years and i have been to few solicitors and they said i have got no chance of getting my PR as she wasnt exercisibg her treaty rights fully but i still applied to get some time ro avoid becoming illegal or out of work during all that time we have given notice of marriage and after all investigation by a HO we have been granted permission to get married which we are next month but now i cant figure out which route to go for as my fiance has got Irish passport but she never worked outside the uk aswell as she was born here she always worked in uk and still
Got really good job but if i go for british route than i have to pay for NHS SURCHARGE which i dont understand why so if anyone please could advice me on this as i havnt got enough money to waste on these solicitors .
Anyone here !!!!

[secret.simon]

Do you mean that your fiancé (wife to be) is a dual national of the UK and another EU country (Ireland)?

If she is, you will have to apply under the UK route. There is no choice in the matter.

If she is in the UK and a UK national, her other nationalities do not matter and she would be treated as another UK citizen. Therefore, you would only be treated as the spouse of a UK citizen, irrespective of her other nationalities.

This rule applies internationally, not just in the UK or the EU. If, for instance, you are a dual US/UK national and in the UK, you can not avail of US consular assistance. Look up "Master Nationality Rule" on Google.

In order for you to apply as the spouse of an EEA citizen, your wife-to-be will have to renounce her British citizenship.

[Uzzybhatti]

Do you mean that your fiancé (wife to be) is a dual national of the UK and another EU country (Ireland)?

If she is, you will have to apply under the UK route. There is no choice in the matter.

If she is in the UK and a UK national, her other nationalities do not matter and she would be treated as another UK citizen. Therefore, you would only be treated as the spouse of a UK citizen, irrespective of her other nationalities.

This rule applies internationally, not just in the UK or the EU. If, for instance, you are a dual US/UK national and in the UK, you can not avail of US consular assistance. Look up "Master Nationality Rule" on Google.

In order for you to apply as the spouse of an EEA citizen, your wife-to-be will have to renounce her British citizenship.

So you are saying as she was born here in uk so she is british as i know she never exercised her treaty rights anywhere in EEA state so i have to apply under british rule and one more question is she has got Irish passport can we apply using that one under british rule as she hasnt got her british passport i mean never NEEDED as on holidays or everywhere she uses her IRISH passport but she can apply for one does it make any differnce if she hasnt got british passport??
Will wait for ur reply

Thanks for replying to my query
Regards
Uzzy

[secret.simon]

A child born to Irish parents in the UK is also automatically a British citizen. So, although she may never have applied for a British passport, she is a British citizen.

Her choice of passports is immaterial. The UK does not require a British citizen to have a British passport to travel abroad, unlike the US and some other countries.

For her to bring you in through the EEA route, she will need to renounce British citizenship as mentioned before. A user on these forums "chaoclive" has successfully done so. I look forward to him to comment on this thread.

[chaoclive]

A child born to Irish parents in the UK is also automatically a British citizen. So, although she may never have applied for a British passport, she is a British citizen.

Her choice of passports is immaterial. The UK does not require a British citizen to have a British passport to travel abroad, unlike the US and some other countries.

For her to bring you in through the EEA route, she will need to renounce British citizenship as mentioned before. A user on these forums "chaoclive" has successfully done so. I look forward to him to comment on this thread.

Hi there
Yes, I have renounced British citizenship by following the process outlined here: https://www.gov.uk/renounce-british-nationality. Make sure you read the guidelines. My renunciation took about 2.5 months and now my partner has a UK residence card.

Further details are available here re: my experience:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... l#p1203023

http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... l#p1198975

http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... l#p1191133

http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... l#p1135285

Here a look through these and let me know if you have any specific questions!

[Uzzybhatti]

A child born to Irish parents in the UK is also automatically a British citizen. So, although she may never have applied for a British passport, she is a British citizen.

Her choice of passports is immaterial. The UK does not require a British citizen to have a British passport to travel abroad, unlike the US and some other countries.

For her to bring you in through the EEA route, she will need to renounce British citizenship as mentioned before. A user on these forums "chaoclive" has successfully done so. I look forward to him to comment on this thread.

Hi there
Yes, I have renounced British citizenship by following the process outlined here: https://www.gov.uk/renounce-british-nationality. Make sure you read the guidelines. My renunciation took about 2.5 months and now my partner has a UK residence card.

Further details are available here re: my experience:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... l#p1203023

http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... l#p1198975

http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... l#p1191133

http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... l#p1135285

Here a look through these and let me know if you have any specific questions!

Thanks all for your replies!! Chaoclive so you mean she can renounce her British citizenship than is she have to go and live so where or work in any other country to apply for a residence permit and which form are we going to use after we are married next month could you please answer that.

Regards
Uzzy

[chaoclive]

Thanks all for your replies!! Chaoclive so you mean she can renounce her British citizenship than is she have to go and live so where or work in any other country to apply for a residence permit and which form are we going to use after we are married next month could you please answer that.

Regards
Uzzy

If she renounces, she won't need to go and live/work in another country and you could apply for the residence card after her renunciation certificate comes through. You will be able to apply on form EEA(FM). See here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _04-15.pdf. It's a long form but not everything is relevant to everyone.

[Uzzybhatti]

Thanks all for your replies!! Chaoclive so you mean she can renounce her British citizenship than is she have to go and live so where or work in any other country to apply for a residence permit and which form are we going to use after we are married next month could you please answer that.

Regards
Uzzy

If she renounces, she won't need to go and live/work in another country and you could apply for the residence card after her renunciation certificate comes through. You will be able to apply on form EEA(FM). See here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _04-15.pdf. It's a long form but not everything is relevant to everyone.

Thanks alot for your reply will have a look and decide whats easier and cheaper and shortest to get RC and will keep you updated aswell as i might need your help in future but so i am really greatfull to you that you spared sometime to reply to
My question once again thanks alot

Regards
Uzzy

[chaoclive]

Thanks all for your replies!! Chaoclive so you mean she can renounce her British citizenship than is she have to go and live so where or work in any other country to apply for a residence permit and which form are we going to use after we are married next month could you please answer that.

Regards
Uzzy

If she renounces, she won't need to go and live/work in another country and you could apply for the residence card after her renunciation certificate comes through. You will be able to apply on form EEA(FM). See here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _04-15.pdf. It's a long form but not everything is relevant to everyone.

Thanks alot for your reply will have a look and decide whats easier and cheaper and shortest to get RC and will keep you updated aswell as i might need your help in future but so i am really greatfull to you that you spared sometime to reply to
My question once again thanks alot

Regards
Uzzy

No probs. Check it out with your wife to see what she thinks

[Uzzybhatti]

[quote="chaoclive"][quote="Uzzybhatti"][quote="



Hi i have got one more queation for you if u can answer please my wife said she do not want to renounce her british nationality this means i have to use flrm to apply for my visa but i have already sent my passport to
Home office for my PR just to get some time as i thought i would be able to apply through eea route but now situation has changed so can i withdraw my first application and apply for flrm??? As they say u have to have valid visa to apply for flrm i had valid visa when i applied but i was looking on thier website that if i withdraw my application im still gona have 28 days is that mean im not illegal or overstayer?? Can you help me on that please as i dont want to go back home and apply for a visa from there... Look forward for your reply

Regards
Uzzy

[Obie]

Certain Irish National born in the UK, which includes Northern Ireland, have a choice of whether they wish to be identified as British or Irish or both.

It will be a breach of the Good Friday Agreement if the UK refuses to accept an Irish National, who is a British Citizen, but does not wish to indentify him or herself as such, from the right of Irish nationality, and the right that flows from it.

[Uzzybhatti]

Certain Irish National born in the UK, which includes Northern Ireland, have a choice of whether they wish to be identified as British or Irish or both.

It will be a breach of the Good Friday Agreement if the UK refuses to accept an Irish National, who is a British Citizen, but does not wish to indentify him or herself as such, from the right of Irish nationality, and the right that flows from it.

Morning so you are saying that i can still apply through EEA route without her renouncing her british citizenship ???? Please let me as im really confused and if i can than the will be EEA(FM) to apply for a spouse visa after our wedding and if we can't apply via EEA ROUTE then form will be FLR(M) can you please confirm that i have got the correct information as i want to fill the form asap so that i dont have to rush after our wedding so we can just enjoy the moment !!
Will look forward to ur reply

Regards
Uzzy

[secret.simon]

Certain Irish National born in the UK, which includes Northern Ireland, have a choice of whether they wish to be identified as British or Irish or both.

It will be a breach of the Good Friday Agreement if the UK refuses to accept an Irish National, who is a British Citizen, but does not wish to indentify him or herself as such, from the right of Irish nationality, and the right that flows from it.

Are you saying that the Good Friday Agreement essentially allows a dual Irish/British citizen to force the Home Office to dispense with the Master Nationality Rule, by asserting his/her Irish citizenship, even while remaining a British citizen? Does this apply to any dual Irish/British citizens in the UK or specifically to dual Irish/British citizens from Northern Ireland?

If that is your interpretation, can I request you to point me towards the legislative enactment that implements it into UK law, so that I can study it further?

PS: Apologies if the tone of my message appears aggressive. That is not the intent at all. I'm just very surprised at this possible interpretation of the Good Friday Agreement and would like to learn more about it.

[Uzzybhatti]

Hi all as you can see i am still waiting for an answer regarding my question if any1 here can answer to me please reply

Regards
Uzzy

[Uzzybhatti]

Obie wrote:
Certain Irish National born in the UK, which includes Northern Ireland, have a choice of whether they wish to be identified as British or Irish or both.

It will be a breach of the Good Friday Agreement if the UK refuses to accept an Irish National, who is a British Citizen, but does not wish to indentify him or herself as such, from the right of Irish nationality, and the right that flows from it.


Morning so you are saying that i can still apply through EEA route without her renouncing her british citizenship ???? Please let me as im really confused and if i can than the will be EEA(FM) to apply for a spouse visa after our wedding and if we can't apply via EEA ROUTE then form will be FLR(M) can you please confirm that i have got the correct information as i want to fill the form asap so that i dont have to rush after our wedding so we can just enjoy the moment !!
Will look forward to ur reply

Regards
Uzzy
Top

[Obie]

Are you saying that the Good Friday Agreement essentially allows a dual Irish/British citizen to force the Home Office to dispense with the Master Nationality Rule, by asserting his/her Irish citizenship, even while remaining a British citizen? Does this apply to any dual Irish/British citizens in the UK or specifically to dual Irish/British citizens from Northern Ireland?

If that is your interpretation, can I request you to point me towards the legislative enactment that implements it into UK law, so that I can study it further?

PS: Apologies if the tone of my message appears aggressive. That is not the intent at all. I'm just very surprised at this possible interpretation of the Good Friday Agreement and would like to learn more about it.

Well if the agreement says, that citizens should be free to identify themselves as Irish or British or both. It will be wrong to force British Citizenship on an Irish citizen who has always identified him or herself as Irish. That will be a breach of their right , if the British government will say they don't recognise their Irish nationality.

It has nothing to do with citizenship , but all to do with the right of Northern Irish citizen to identify themselves with whatever group the so chooses.

[secret.simon]

So, if I understand it correctly Obie, it depends on whether the wife-to-be is Northern Irish. Uzzybhatti, was your fiancé born in Northern Ireland?

Obie, what if the fiancé is not Northern Irish? What if her parents were Northern Irish, but she was born in Great Britain? What if her parents were from the Republic of Ireland? Would the same rules apply?

[Obie]

So, if I understand it correctly Obie, it depends on whether the wife-to-be is Northern Irish. Uzzybhatti, was your fiancé born in Northern Ireland?

Obie, what if the fiancé is not Northern Irish? What if her parents were Northern Irish, but she was born in Great Britain? What if her parents were from the Republic of Ireland? Would the same rules apply?

Well this will have a potential to extend beyond the scope of Northern Ireland.

If a Norther Irish who wishes to be recognise him or herself as Irish, gave birth in Great Britain to a child, due to her needing emergency services, which is only based in Scotland, then surely, the British Government cannot forcefully impose British Citizenship on that person, nor can it force then to revoke something they never recognised in the first place.

If those citizen voluntary obtain a British Passport, and when they want to sponsor a Non-EU, applied for an Irish Citizenship, then it can be said, that these people Identify with both Nationality. Then McCarthy will be engaged. But if they had refused to identify themselves as British from the outset, the UK governments cannot force British Citizenship on them.

When those people fill EEA Form, they can simply put no, if they are asked if they hold other citizenship. They will be perfectly within their right to do so.

http://www.britishirishcouncil.org/abou ... -agreement

[secret.simon]

Obie, your interpretation of the Belfast Agreement raises quite a few important points.

Article 1 (vi) states

(vi) recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

To begin with, it talks about the right to identify themselves as either Irish or British or both. That does not detract from the fact that by the operation of law on either side of the border, they may be both. So, the OP's fiancé may consider herself Irish (she has only exercised an Irish passport), but she is British by law and I think the Home Office is entitled, nay required, to treat her as a British citizen within the UK, even though she considers herself and portrays herself as Irish.

Now let's explore this question further. If a person from Northern Ireland were to be convicted of a crime in Great Britain, could he be deported to the Republic of Ireland if he portrays himself as an Irish citizen? Would he be entitled to Irish consular assistance within the UK?

The way I interpret it, the Belfast Agreement only applies to one's personal identity. But a person born in Northern Ireland to either a British or Irish citizen or a person settled in Northern Ireland by either PR or ILR is, by law, a citizen of both countries, irrespective of the identity that s/he chooses for themselves.

[Obie]

To identify oneself as part of a groups implies in my view,

That national authority cannot force them to be British.

To identify oneself as part of a nation, has a more deeper meaning than you are seeking to comprehend.

[secret.simon]

I disagree with your view on that, but I am not a lawyer.

If the OP wanted to force the Home Office (by taking them to court) to recognise his fiancé as being solely Irish (in spite of the fact that she is a dual national), would your arguments stand up in court? And if so, what are the chances?

Is that a line of action that you would recommend to the OP?

Under UK law (I'm looking at the courts here), would an agreement signed by the British government (not a treaty) invalidate the provisions of a statute passed by Parliament passed prior to the agreement (British Nationality Act 1981)?

Uzzybhatti
The way I see it, you have three options;

a) Assuming that your fiancé does not change her status, apply under FLR(M).
b) If your fiancé renounces British citizenship, apply under EEA Family permit.
c) Using Obie's argument above, compel the Home Office to recognise your wife as being solely Irish and apply for EEA Family Permit.

[Obie]

Well I am perfectly content with you not agreeing with me.

That is what makes an healthy debate.

My view is that, it is at least arguable , that the article in question will be nugatory , if national authority refuses tje right of an Irish citizen to recognise herself only as Irish.

In the case of McCarthy , Mrs McCarthy only picked up UK nationality , to help her husband, she had always been a United Kingdom National.

In the Northern Irish scenario, if a person has since birth held Irish Citizenship and recognises them self as such, and never obtained British citizenship, I fail to see how the Irish agreement will make sense to them if the UK say, they are only British and will only be recognised as such.

It will make no sense.

Northern Ireland has a unique status that is different from other regions of the UK.

[secret.simon]

Well I am perfectly content with you not agreeing with me.That is what makes an healthy debate.

Thank heavens (and thank you) for a mature response. I have had members on these forums (not moderators though) get quite stroppy at me for offering a contrary opinion.

I perceive that our differences are merely in our latitudes of interpretation. I am interpreting the Agreement, in so far as I think it applies-and I dispute it does, to begin with- in the narrowest terms needed to not defeat its objectives, while I perceive your interpretations to be broad, to cover all eventualities.

Uzzybhatti, are you and your fiancé currently resident in Northern Ireland or does your fiancé claim her Irish nationality through descent or birth from Northern Ireland?

[Uzzybhatti]

Obie
Secret simon

My fiancé was born in UK and has never worked outside UK in any EEA STATE but her parents were from REPUBLIC OF IRELAND so can you guys tell me which route I have to take to apply for a spouse visa and which forms it will be hope will get a reply soon

Regards
Uzzy

[secret.simon]

Given that your fiancé does not want to give up her British citizenship and that she is not from Northern Ireland, I see no option but the FLR(M) route.