Stats of EU members in Ireland with non EEA spouse.

[archigabe]

Take a read through this post here...
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=18442

Also try to contact Denis Naughton who is Fine Gael spokesperson on immigration

http://denisnaughten.finegael.ie/repres ... pe/contact

[Ark]

* EU-Country of worker: Italy
* Non-EEA country of spouse: USA
* Date of application for residence card for spouse: January 10th 2007
* Approved, Denied, or Pending (if approved/denied, supply date): Denied.

[CamB]

* EU-Country of worker: English
* Non-EEA country of spouse: Australian
* Date of application for residence card for spouse: June 2007
* Approved, Denied, or Pending (if approved/denied, supply date): Don't know. Probably get a response some time in Jan/Feb but we can't afford to hang around to get a letter saying we've been denied...so we're leaving.
Good luck to everyone...hope it works out for you all.

[cantaro]

Hello,

my wife has applied for EU1 residency. Here are the stats:

• EU-Country of worker: Germany
  Non-EEA country of spouse: Argentina
  Date of application for residence card for spouse: 24.10.2007
  Approved, Denied, or Pending (if approved, supply date of approval): Pending

At least they were fast acknowledging receipt of the application and returning all original documents, it only took them 6 working days! Now we will have to send my employer's reference letter (we forgot to include it), and then we shall wait and see...

[checo]

Eu-country of worker:Poland
non-EEA country of spouse:Democratic republic of congo
Date of application:5th april 2007
date of refusal:september 2007
We been living together for one year before getting married in ireland.
Spouse living in ireland since 2002,living legally under 6months temporary residence,awaiting refugee appeals tribunal hearing date after winning two judicial review against them in the high court.
Been told by eu treaty rights section that we have no right of appeal.
Have written letters to department of justice and eu commisiion,please let me know if i can do more in order to appeal this unjust decision by the irish govt.
thank you all for this great forum

Hi, you could apply for the residence permit in Poland for your spouse from here. When you get it, you can prove that your spouse has residence in other EU country and they have to give you residence then based on EU Treaty Rights...

[camilachimelo]

Eu-country of worker:Italy
non-EEA country of spouse:Brazil
Date of application:22/5/07
date of refusal:16/11/07
Living in Ireland since 2004, both of us, got married in Brasil on the 17th of march ( ironically, St Patricks Day! )2007, and I don't know about u, but WE WON'T GIVE UP!! No matter what, we've been trought so much, it's just not fair , becouse of a few, we pay the pice for those convenience marriages!

[schwdhry]

well, Good luck next time.Hope you get to see a different officer.

Update : Managed to get a Stamp 3 for 1 year today, from local Garda Station.

[cantaro]

my wife has applied for EU1 residency. Here are the stats:

• EU-Country of worker: Germany
  Non-EEA country of spouse: Argentina
  Date of application for residence card for spouse: 24.10.2007
  Approved, Denied, or Pending (if approved, supply date of approval): Pending

My wife just called me at work saying that she received the decision letter: APPROVED! We can go to GNIB and collect the Stamp 4! I guess they did not take the full 6 months because the case was crystal clear, even the previous residence requirement was clearly fulfilled. Thanks to everyone in this forum for your support! Now she will go and send updated CVs… :)

[ca.funke]

* EU-Country of worker: Germany / Belgium
* Non-EEA country of spouse: Lebanon
* Date of application for residence card for spouse: January 31st 2008
* Pending

Have been living in Ireland for 5 years before marrying.

[ca.funke]

...APPROVED!...Stamp 4...

If I recall correctly, "Stamp 4" is the national Irish "leave to remain", and "Stamp EU4Fam" is the stamp for EU1.

Thus, if I am right and your Garda-Cards carries "Stamp 4" you do not have the stamp you asked for.

[cantaro]

If I recall correctly, "Stamp 4" is the national Irish "leave to remain", and "Stamp EU4Fam" is the stamp for EU1.

Of course the letter mentions a Stamp 4 EUFam. But from an employer's point of view it's all the same…

[Scripta]

* EU-Country of worker: Latvia
* Non-EEA country of spouse: Pakistan
* Date of application for residence card: 31st December 2007
* Approved, Denied, or Pending (if approved/denied, supply date):Pending...

[ca.funke]

If I recall correctly, "Stamp 4" is the national Irish "leave to remain", and "Stamp EU4Fam" is the stamp for EU1.

Of course the letter mentions a Stamp 4 EUFam. But from an employer's point of view it's all the same…

Hi,

from an employers' view here in Ireland - yes - it's the same.

The big differences are:

• Stamp 4 is (most of the times) valid for 1 year (only).
• Stamp EU4Fam is valid for 5 years.
• Stamp 4 does NOT acknowledge that you are treated according to 2004/38/EC.
• 2004/38/EC and thus EU4Fam is important for people who come from countries who need Visas for central Europe, as only this is deemed equivalent to short-stay visas within the EU. (i.e. no more need to apply separately for every weekend-trip.)

If you are from a country that is not required to have Visas in the Schengen-area, then it should make practically no real difference, except you have to go through the nightmare of getting a new Stamp4 every year.

Rgds, Christian

[Ben]

Hi,

from an employers' view here in Ireland - yes - it's the same.

The big differences are:

• Stamp 4 is (most of the times) valid for 1 year (only).
• Stamp EU4Fam is valid for 5 years.
• Stamp 4 does NOT acknowledge that you are treated according to 2004/38/EC.
• 2004/38/EC and thus EU4Fam is important for people who come from countries who need Visas for central Europe, as only this is deemed equivalent to short-stay visas within the EU. (i.e. no more need to apply separately for every weekend-trip.)

If you are from a country that is not required to have Visas in the Schengen-area, then it should make practically no real difference, except you have to go through the nightmare of getting a new Stamp4 every year.

Rgds, Christian

Here's a question:

What if the DoJ send my family member a letter saying that they are not recognising his right of residence in accordance with Directive 2004/38/EC, however "taking into consideration the particular circumstances of [his] case, and as an exceptional measure, this Division is prepared to approve [him] permission to remain in the State under Stamp 4 conditions which will allow [him] to work and remain in the State for the next year." and.. "In advance of expiry of this permission [he] must contact the EU Treaty Rights Section.."

But.. the immigration officer in the local GNIB office (Garda Station) makes my family member a Stamp 4 EUFam card anyway, as opposed to (national legislation) Stamp 4 as per the letter?

[ca.funke]

Here's a question:

What if the DoJ send my family member a letter saying that they are not recognising his right of residence in accordance with Directive 2004/38/EC, however "taking into consideration the particular circumstances of [his] case, and as an exceptional measure, this Division is prepared to approve [him] permission to remain in the State under Stamp 4 conditions which will allow [him] to work and remain in the State for the next year." and.. "In advance of expiry of this permission [he] must contact the EU Treaty Rights Section.."

But.. the immigration officer in the local GNIB office (Garda Station) makes my family member a Stamp 4 EUFam card anyway, as opposed to (national legislation) Stamp 4 as per the letter?

I'd say - welcome to Ireland.

Within the immigration "system", no-one knows what means what, and basically the right hand does not know what the left is doing.

If you have an EU4Fam - is it valid for 5 years?

If so - you can be happy and should be able to travel to all other EU-countries without separate Visas. (In practice this involves some other problems, as most airlines/borderguards are not aware of this, but that's discussed in a different thread.)

[Ben]

I'd say - welcome to Ireland.

Within the immigration "system", no-one knows what means what, and basically the right hand does not know what the left is doing.

So true.

If you have an EU4Fam - is it valid for 5 years?

No, only valid for one year as per the DoJ's letter. The immigration officer in the Garda Station advised us to write to the DoJ six weeks before the expiry of the card he made us, and request renewal. This, at least, is consistent with the DoJ's letter, even if the card he made is not.

I wonder if next year's card will be Stamp 4 EUFam also, or "national legislation" Stamp 4? I guess it will depend on how many seconds the immigration officer looks at the DoJ letter, and how many seconds he looks at the current Stamp 4 EUFam card.

Doesn't really matter for travelling purposes, I suppose, since the family member in question is not visa-required for most European countries anyway. Still, five years of Stamp 4 EUFam will surely mean Permanent Residency, in accordance with Directive 2004/38/EC. Five years of national legislation Stamp 4 would not.

Here's hoping the right hand doesn't work out what the left is doing within the next five years. (Well, not in this case anyway).

[archigabe]

Hi,

from an employers' view here in Ireland - yes - it's the same.

The big differences are:

• Stamp 4 is (most of the times) valid for 1 year (only).
• Stamp EU4Fam is valid for 5 years.
• Stamp 4 does NOT acknowledge that you are treated according to 2004/38/EC.
• 2004/38/EC and thus EU4Fam is important for people who come from countries who need Visas for central Europe, as only this is deemed equivalent to short-stay visas within the EU. (i.e. no more need to apply separately for every weekend-trip.)

If you are from a country that is not required to have Visas in the Schengen-area, then it should make practically no real difference, except you have to go through the nightmare of getting a new Stamp4 every year.

Rgds, Christian

Actually if you are visa required you still have to apply for a schengen visa. In my understanding, only Germany and Czech republic allow for visa free travel for visa required nationals with Irish Stamp4EU fam card.

[ca.funke]

Actually if you are visa required you still have to apply for a schengen visa. In my understanding, only Germany and Czech republic allow for visa free travel for visa required nationals with Irish Stamp4EU fam card.

Hi archigabe,

the difference is what the memberstates do vs. what the law sais:

This website by the european commission states (somewhere towards the middle of the page):

Possession of the valid residence card, referred to in the relevant fact sheet, issued by any Member State, exempts you from the visa obligation not only in the Member State which issued the residence card, but in all Member States.

The problem why most countries do not know/do not care about visa-free travel is the following:

• In order to receive the mentioned card (In Ireland called EU4Fam) ALL of the following must apply:
• EU-partner married to non-EU partner
• Couple resides within the EU, but NOT in the country of origin of the EU-partner.
• Such couples, in posession of the mentioned card, should not need any Visas when traveling anywhere inside the EU.

After understanding this - take a deep breath:

In order to have relevance for travel, the following has to come together:

• All EU-countries, with the exception of Ireland, the UK, Cyprus, Bulgaria and Romania, are inside Schengen. Within Schengen such travel-problems do not arise in the first place.
• Thus only a couple in posession of the card as per above AND
• travelling "from non-Schengen to Schengen" OR
• from "Schengen to non-Schengen" OR
• from "non-Schengen to non-Schengen" AND
• the non-EU-partner in question has to be from a Visa-country

Only such (special) cases should be able to rely on the above regulation.

But this constellation is not occurring en-masse, and therefore the regulation and its details are widely unknown.

However, as we are living in non-Schengen-Ireland, this should be applicable to a lot of readers here.

Therefore "Stamp 4" and "Stamp EU4Fam" makes such a big difference.

[africunda]

[quote="eurotired"]EU-Country of worker: Belgium
Non-EEA country of spouse: Nigeria
Date of application for residence card for spouse: 20th November, 2006
Approved, Denied, or Pending (if approved, supply date of approval):denied 11 july 2007

[Ben]

Actually if you are visa required you still have to apply for a schengen visa. In my understanding, only Germany and Czech republic allow for visa free travel for visa required nationals with Irish Stamp4EU fam card.

Hi archigabe,

the difference is what the memberstates do vs. what the law sais:

This website by the european commission states (somewhere towards the middle of the page):

Possession of the valid residence card, referred to in the relevant fact sheet, issued by any Member State, exempts you from the visa obligation not only in the Member State which issued the residence card, but in all Member States.

The problem why most countries do not know/do not care about visa-free travel is the following:

• In order to receive the mentioned card (In Ireland called EU4Fam) ALL of the following must apply:
• EU-partner married to non-EU partner
• Couple resides within the EU, but NOT in the country of origin of the EU-partner.
• Such couples, in posession of the mentioned card, should not need any Visas when traveling anywhere inside the EU.

After understanding this - take a deep breath:

In order to have relevance for travel, the following has to come together:

• All EU-countries, with the exception of Ireland, the UK, Cyprus, Bulgaria and Romania, are inside Schengen. Within Schengen such travel-problems do not arise in the first place.
• Thus only a couple in posession of the card as per above AND
• travelling "from non-Schengen to Schengen" OR
• from "Schengen to non-Schengen" OR
• from "non-Schengen to non-Schengen" AND
• the non-EU-partner in question has to be from a Visa-country

Only such (special) cases should be able to to rely on the above regulation.

But this constellation is not occurring en-masse, and therefore the regulation and its details are widely unknown.

However, as we are living in non-Schengen-Ireland, this should be applicable to a lot of readers here.

Therefore "Stamp 4" and "Stamp EU4Fam" makes such a big difference.

The problem though, ca.funke, is that Ireland does not issue permits that allow visa free travel because they have opted out of Council Regulation (EC) No 1030/2002.

(15) In accordance with Article 1 of the said Protocol, Ireland is not participating in the adoption of this Regulation. Consequently and without prejudice to Article 4 of the aforementioned Protocol, the provisions of this Regulation do not apply to Ireland.

Subsequently, whether someone holds a Stamp 4 card or a Stamp 4 EUFam card, it does not exempt them from visa requirements when travelling to other Members States. Visa required nationals still require a visa, however it is issued free of charge and in accordance with Directive 2004/38/EC.

In light of this, one might ask what the DoJ's intention is, in creating this (relatively) new Stamp 4 EUFam status, issued to individuals who have been granted Stamp 4 in accordance with Directive 2004/38/EC, as opposed to national legislation. It doesn't give any advantages when travelling. It makes no difference to employers, banks, etc. when proving residency status. Apart from being valid for five years and not (usually) just one, what's the point? To demonstrate that one is resident accordance with Directive 2004/38/EC? Demonstrate to whom exactly?

[ca.funke]

The problem though, ca.funke, is that Ireland does not issue permits that allow visa free travel because they have opted out of Council Regulation (EC) No 1030/2002.

(15) In accordance with Article 1 of the said Protocol, Ireland is not participating in the adoption of this Regulation. Consequently and without prejudice to Article 4 of the aforementioned Protocol, the provisions of this Regulation do not apply to Ireland.

Subsequently, whether someone holds a Stamp 4 card or a Stamp 4 EUFam card, it does not exempt them from visa requirements when travelling to other Members States. Visa required nationals still require a visa, however it is issued free of charge and in accordance with Directive 2004/38/EC.

In light of this, one might ask what the DoJ's intention is, in creating this (relatively) new Stamp 4 EUFam status, issued to individuals who have been granted Stamp 4 in accordance with Directive 2004/38/EC, as opposed to national legislation. It doesn't give any advantages when travelling. It makes no difference to employers, banks, etc. when proving residency status. Apart from being valid for five years and not (usually) just one, what's the point? To demonstrate that one is resident accordance with Directive 2004/38/EC? Demonstrate to whom exactly?

Hi benifa,

The UK (and Ireland in their usual "we copy everything from the UK-mode") may have opted-out of Council Regulation (EC) No 1030/2002.

But this does not change that 2004/38/EC still applies?

As I am not a lawyer and do not have a REAL idea about all this, I do not want to insist. But if one regulation has to do with the other, could you/anyone shed light on what "Council Regulation (EC) No 1030/2002" has to do with "2004/38/EC"?

Rgds, Christian

[Ben]

Hi benifa,

The UK (and Ireland in their usual "we copy everything from the UK-mode") may have opted-out of Council Regulation (EC) No 1030/2002.

But this does not change that 2004/38/EC still applies?

As I am not a lawyer and do not have a REAL idea about all this, I do not want to insist. But if one regulation has to do with the other, could you/anyone shed light on what "Council Regulation (EC) No 1030/2002" has to do with "2004/38/EC"?

Rgds, Christian

Honestly, I don't know. I'm not a lawyer either, this is just a hobby for me. One might assume that a regulation written in 2004 would supersede something written in 2002. But we all know what happens when we assume..

Truth is mate, I'm not certain on this one either. You're right though, as far as I can see, the two are somewhat contradictory. Hopefully someone more "in the know" will come on and clarify what affect these two papers have on each other.

[cantaro]

If I recall correctly, "Stamp 4" is the national Irish "leave to remain", and "Stamp EU4Fam" is the stamp for EU1.

Today my wife and I went to the GNIB to collect the stamp and the residence card. The officer explained to us that the actual stamp in the passport is a common Stamp 4, as there is no such thing as a physical Stamp 4 EUFam. The residence card, on the other hand, clearly states 'Stamp 4 EUFam.'

As a sidenote, my wife was issued with the stamp and residence card for 3 years only, as her passport will expire in 2011. She can, however, return to GNIB with her old passport, her new passport, and the letter from Immigration to have a new residence card and Stamp 4 issued.

[ca.funke]

Today my wife and I went to the GNIB to collect the stamp and the residence card. The officer explained to us that the actual stamp in the passport is a common Stamp 4, as there is no such thing as a physical Stamp 4 EUFam. The residence card, on the other hand, clearly states 'Stamp 4 EUFam.'

As a sidenote, my wife was issued with the stamp and residence card for 3 years only, as her passport will expire in 2011. She can, however, return to GNIB with her old passport, her new passport, and the letter from Immigration to have a new residence card and Stamp 4 issued.

Congratulations cantaro!

Critical question: Before moving to Ireland, did you and your wife live together anywhere else in the EU, and subsequently both of you moved to Ireland together? Or was the setup different?

[cantaro]

Congratulations cantaro!

Thank you!

Critical question: Before moving to Ireland, did you and your wife live together anywhere else in the EU, and subsequently both of you moved to Ireland together? Or was the setup different?

Yes, we lived together in Germany for one year immediately before moving to Ireland together.