UK to scrap Common Travel Area with Irl. - join Schengen?

[dsab85]

I heard this morning on the Radio that the UK will scrap the common Travel Area arrangement with Ireland to introducte the new "E-Border" system in the UK.

That means all people will need a Passport to Travel from Ireland to the UK from 2009. Do you think Ireland will join Schengen now? AFAIK the Common Travel Area with the UK was the reason they couldn't join up to it so far.

Any thoughts?

DSAB85

P.S. http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1024/transport.html

[mktsoi]

I heard this morning on the Radio that the UK will scrap the common Travel Area arrangement with Ireland to introducte the new "E-Border" system in the UK.

That means all people will need a Passport to Travel from Ireland to the UK from 2009. Do you think Ireland will join Schengen now? AFAIK the Common Travel Area with the UK was the reason they couldn't join up to it so far.

Any thoughts?

DSAB85

P.S. http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1024/transport.html

ireland will only join schengen is when they change from driving on the leftside of the road to the rightside of the road. if you take a look at the law in this country. is there anything they dont copy from uk? and dont forget. northern ireland is not part of united kingdom! if you take a look at the british passport. in the front of the british passport. it says United Kingdom and Northern Ireland!!!!!!!

[yankeegirl]

northern ireland is not part of united kingdom! if you take a look at the british passport. in the front of the british passport. it says United Kingdom and Northern Ireland!!!!!!!

Just wanted to clarify that Northern Ireland IS a part of the UK. Immigration-wise, you could really confuse someone by saying that, since it is a part of the UK and you need to apply for a UK visa in order to live here.

[avjones]

and dont forget. northern ireland is not part of united kingdom! if you take a look at the british passport. in the front of the british passport. it says United Kingdom and Northern Ireland!!!!!!!

Of course it is! The full title is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

[sakura]

and dont forget. northern ireland is not part of united kingdom! if you take a look at the british passport. in the front of the british passport. it says United Kingdom and Northern Ireland!!!!!!!

Of course it is! The full title is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

I think she meant it isn't physically part of the mainland UK island (of England, Scotland and Wales) and is connected (part) of Rep. of Ireland. So, if Ireland wanted to join the Schengen area, it might not be possible because of N. Ireland.

Make sense?

[avjones]

What you have said makes perfect sense, but I don't think that's what the OP meant at all (-:

[mktsoi]

sorry, my mistake. i mean not part of great britain but is part of the uk.

[yankeegirl]

It is not expected that Britain will try to implement the new system at the border between the Republic and Northern Ireland, as it would be too difficult to police.

Gosh, when I first started reading that article, I thought they were going to put border controls between NI and ROI, until I got to this last paragraph lol.

I'm not sure Ireland will sign up to Schengen. They seem really leery of any more immigration, so I can't see them signing up to allow more. It's kind of hard to say, really, but will be interesting to see what they end up doing.

[Dawie]

If the Republic of Ireland were to join the Schengen agreement it would mean imposing border controls between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland of the type you currently see between, say, the United States and Mexico.

Can you imagine the outrage of cross-border communities having to queue for hours on end to cross the border? In my opinion the people of the whole island of Ireland would never tolerate a physical border between the two communities.

[seabhcan]

If the Republic of Ireland were to join the Schengen agreement it would mean imposing border controls between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland of the type you currently see between, say, the United States and Mexico.

Can you imagine the outrage of cross-border communities having to queue for hours on end to cross the border? In my opinion the people of the whole island of Ireland would never tolerate a physical border between the two communities.

Have you ever seen the swiss border? No queues, minimal checks, free movement. Several times I've gotten a taxi on one side to go to the other. The taxi doesn't even have to slow down at the border. The motorways are built winding in and out of each country.

The difference with the US-Mexico example is that everyone in NI is allowed to travel to the south, while the US is trying to keep mexicans out.

A RoI/NI border would be almost invisible, as it is today.

[Dawie]

If the Republic of Ireland were to join the Schengen agreement it would mean imposing border controls between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland of the type you currently see between, say, the United States and Mexico.

Can you imagine the outrage of cross-border communities having to queue for hours on end to cross the border? In my opinion the people of the whole island of Ireland would never tolerate a physical border between the two communities.

Have you ever seen the swiss border? No queues, minimal checks, free movement.

The difference with the US-Mexico example is that everyone in NI is allowed to travel to the south, while the US is trying to keep mexicans out.

A RoI/NI border would be almost invisible, as it is today.

I'm afraid your analogy with the Swiss situation is misguided.

A better analogy would be the current Schengen external frontier with non-Schengen EU members, for example the Austria-Slovakia border or the German-Poland border or even better, the UK-French border.

I suspect that the heightening of controls on the NI - Republic border post-Schengen entry would not be the fault of the Irish, but rather the fault of the British.

Currently the UK has enormous influence over who can enter the Republic of Ireland despite it being a sovereign independent country thanks to the common travel area. At the UK's request, Irish immigration officials have the power to deny entry to the Republic to anyone who the UK suspects will use the Republic as an easy way to get into the UK due to the lack of controls between the two countries.

If the Republic were to join Schengen, the UK would by definition lose this influence and would no longer be able to control who enters the Republic and therefore who could potentially cross over its border into Northern Ireland.

The fact of the matter is the UK obviously does not trust the vetting procedures used by Schengen countries to determine who gets a Schengen visa, otherwise they would have joined Schengen long ago. I suspect that the controls between NI and the Republic would more likely mirror those currently in place between France and the UK. This would mean barricading the NI border, building customs and immigration posts and effectively sealing off the border.

In reality though who in Ireland would tolerate this? However the powers that be who control the Schengen agreement would probably not allow the Republic to join the Schengen agreement without putting in place the proper controls at the NI border either.

All in all one can understand why the Republic has not joined the Schengen agreement yet. It all looks very messy.

[JAJ]

If the Republic of Ireland were to join the Schengen agreement it would mean imposing border controls between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland of the type you currently see between, say, the United States and Mexico.

More likely the type between the United States and Canada.

[Dawie]

If the Republic of Ireland were to join the Schengen agreement it would mean imposing border controls between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland of the type you currently see between, say, the United States and Mexico.

More likely the type between the United States and Canada.

Which is becoming increasingly like the one with Mexico if recent reports are true. It seems the USA is increasingly more and more paranoid about its Canadian border.

[yankeegirl]

Which is becoming increasingly like the one with Mexico if recent reports are true. It seems the USA is increasingly more and more paranoid about its Canadian border.

I think it was in January of this year that the US started to require Candadians and US citizens entering the US from Mexico or Canada via air travel to have a passport. They are planning to bring the requirement in for land and see travel as well, but last I read it was postponed, partly due to the large backlog of passport applications by americans going on vacation to places that they previously didn't need a passport to go to/come back from.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2006/76752.htm

[Dawie]

What I find strange about the Canada/USA border is that while European states with similar economic growth and wealth are moving towards erasing international borders - for example the planned entry of 9 new states into the Schengen agreement, the USA and Canada are moving to increase security and make it MORE difficult to cross their border despite the obvious similarities in wealth and economic growth between the two countries not to mention near-identical cultures.

If European states with their different languages and cultures can do it, you would have thought the USA and Canada would be a prime candidate for some sort of passport union. However I would hazard a guess that the USA is far too paranoid at the moment to even think about that.

[seabhcan]

What I find strange about the Canada/USA border is that while European states with similar economic growth and wealth are moving towards erasing international borders - for example the planned entry of 9 new states into the Schengen agreement, the USA and Canada are moving to increase security and make it MORE difficult to cross their border despite the obvious similarities in wealth and economic growth between the two countries not to mention near-identical cultures.

If European states with their different languages and cultures can do it, you would have thought the USA and Canada would be a prime candidate for some sort of passport union. However I would hazard a guess that the USA is far too paranoid at the moment to even think about that.

Its just another example of Anglo-phone paranoia about security - UK and Ireland are the only EU members not to join the open border Schengen system (because of 'security fears').

Its a sad development. Traditionally, anglo-phone countries have been the most open. Now they are turning into repressive places, with secret prisons, assassinations, and talk of 'emergency detection centers'

[yankeegirl]

What I find strange about the Canada/USA border is that while European states with similar economic growth and wealth are moving towards erasing international borders - for example the planned entry of 9 new states into the Schengen agreement, the USA and Canada are moving to increase security and make it MORE difficult to cross their border despite the obvious similarities in wealth and economic growth between the two countries not to mention near-identical cultures.

If European states with their different languages and cultures can do it, you would have thought the USA and Canada would be a prime candidate for some sort of passport union. However I would hazard a guess that the USA is far too paranoid at the moment to even think about that.

None of the European countries have Bush running things

Its a sad development. Traditionally, anglo-phone countries have been the most open. Now they are turning into repressive places, with secret prisons, assassinations, and talk of 'emergency detection centers'

Very sad, indeed. So many things, like the ones you mentioned, are things that I naively thought would never happen.

[archigabe]

makes you long for the carefree 70's and 80's!

[Dawie]

The irony is that the actual level of terrorism has not changed at all since the 70's and 80's, it's just governments' paranoia that has increased.

[yankeegirl]

And the government turning around and fanning the flames of paranoia in its citizens. I'm not sure about other countries but when I left the US in 2004, there was that dumbass color-coded terror level system that seemed to rise wheneber Bush was in a pickle and needed his approval ratings to go up, and the first Director of Homeland security all over the news urging all Americans to rush out and make sure their homes were well stocked with the one thing that would keep them safe in the face of a biological/chemical attack.......DUCT TAPE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duct_tape_alert

[archigabe]

The irony is that the actual level of terrorism has not changed at all since the 70's and 80's, it's just governments' paranoia that has increased.

Yes sometimes things don't seem to have changed at all! Think 'Back to the Future partI' with the terrorists on the truck sending Marty on his first trip!