Validity of divorce and 2nd marriage

[NZama1]

My first marriage was with a british national (I am also a britidh national) and we went to pakistan to get married, we subsequently seperated and my first wife went to pakistan to issue divorve proceeding through the courts in pakistan as that is where we married. she obtained the official divorce from pakistan. Once i recieved the divorce , I then remarried in pakistan and applied for spouse visa, however the ECO is not accpting this divorce from pakistan.

Would it make a difference that both myself and my first wife hold NICOP cards which states one of its benefits as recognition as a Pakistani citizens and so Pakistani divorce should have been accepted?
Do you think ive got any likely chance of success if I appeal?

Unsure how to best proceed.

casa, while your online.
have been told that once ive got my decree absolute then fly back to pakistan and it would be possible to re register 2nd marriage so it post dates the uk divorce then apply again under spouse visa explaining why you have re registred the 2nd marriage as ECO didnt accept it as valid the first time.
have you any comments on this route?

[Casa]

NZama1 as you will have read in my posts in this thread, I don't believe that a marriage will be considered legal under British law if it took place before the divorce decree absolute was granted. You'll also see that Adnan disagrees with me. Regarding your situation, there others on the forum who are far more knowledgeable about divorce under Pakistan law.

[WR1]

My first marriage was with a british national (I am also a britidh national) and we went to pakistan to get married, we subsequently seperated and my first wife went to pakistan to issue divorve proceeding through the courts in pakistan as that is where we married. she obtained the official divorce from pakistan. Once i recieved the divorce , I then remarried in pakistan and applied for spouse visa, however the ECO is not accpting this divorce from pakistan.

Would it make a difference that both myself and my first wife hold NICOP cards which states one of its benefits as recognition as a Pakistani citizens and so Pakistani divorce should have been accepted?
Do you think ive got any likely chance of success if I appeal?

Unsure how to best proceed.

Are either of you or your former wife currently (or at the time of divorce) living and settled in Pakistan. If you both are living/setlled in the UK, then why didn't obtain the divorce in the UK. If you are both living/settled in the UK, then the UKVI will see it as a attempt to bypass UK laws for obtaining a divorce in the UK and went to pakistan for a "quickie divorce". Being a national of that coutry would not make a difference if that is the case. This is just my opinion on the matter and I am not saying this is the reason for refusal of accepting the divorce.

[Casa]

WR1, actually that was my opinion for the refusal but I thought it prudent to wait for the view of others before advising.

[NZama1]

I hold a british passport (born in UK) in addition to a NICOP (national identity card for overseas pakistanis) card and so does my first wife, we married and divorced abroad. the fact that we both have NICOP cards does that mean ukVI should accept our divorce abroad. we both live in the uk and only went to pakistan for two months to initiate the divorce proceedings

[geriatrix]

NICOP card is just an evidence of Pakistanti citizenship and it is a known fact among British nationals of Pakistani origin that both Pakistan and UK allow dual nationalities ..... what does it have to do with the validity of your divorce for UK immigration purposes?

See also Guidance - Polygamous / potential polygamous marriages: SET14

[geriatrix]

Though I haven't read it yet, but the following (current) guidance may be more suitable to find the answer to your query regarding validity of your divorce.

Guidance - Overseas divorces: SET13

[geriatrix]

Under the Family Law Act 1986 an overseas divorce obtained by means of judicial or other proceedings is recognised in the UK only if:

- it is effective under the law of the country in which it was obtained; and
- at the relevant date (that is, the date on which proceedings were begun), either party was either habitually resident or domiciled in that country or was a national of that country.

The term ‘judicial or other proceedings’ requires that there should have been some formal proceedings, either before a court or some other formal body recognised by the state for that purpose (for example, in Pakistan the Union Council). It is an important aspect that the judicial or other body should be impartial as to the outcome of the proceedings.

Who granted you the divorce in Pakistan - I mean which authority?

[NZama1]

divorce granted through union council after going through court proceedins

[Casa]

As you were both domicile in the UK at the time of your divorce, I would assume the problem is due to the highlighted conditions below:
"An overseas divorce obtained otherwise than by means of proceedings is recognised in the UK if:
it is effective under the law of the country in which it was obtained; and
at the relevant date (that is, the date on which the divorce was obtained), both parties were domiciled in that country and the other was domiciled in a country which recognised the divorce; and or one was domiciled there
neither party had been habitually resident in the UK throughout the period of one year immediately preceding that date.

[NZama1]

but the divorce was obtained by offiicial proceedings, and we were both nationals at the time (holders of valid NICOP cards) therefore does that not mean we satisfy the requirments of SET13.4 highlighted by sushdmehta earlier?

[adnan111]

but the divorce was obtained by offiicial proceedings, and we were both nationals at the time (holders of valid NICOP cards) therefore does that not mean we satisfy the requirments of SET13.4 highlighted by sushdmehta earlier?

You are both British nationals and live permanently in Britain, you cannot just go to Pakistan and get a quickie divorce. You need to get a divorce in UK. NICOP is a Pakistan Identity card and having it does not mean you are a Pakistani national as far as I know, but it just gives you visa free access to Pakistan and proves you have Pakistani origin. Even if NICOP makes you a Pakistani national you are also UK nationals and live in UK so need to get a divorce here.

[NZama1]

adnan111, keep us updated on the outcome of your spouse application please, would be useful information to share.thanks

[adnan111]

You may find this helpful.

http://www.immigrationboards.com/immigr ... 65492.html

However only difference is that he initiated divorce proceedings before getting British Nationality although he says you can be dual national and still the divorce will be recognised. The thread also gives useful information on what documents to submit.

I will let you and everyone else know as soon as I get any news.

[secret.simon]

NICOP is issued only to Pakistani citizens.

So, logically, if NZama1 and his ex-wife were both NICOP card holders, they were both dual British-Pakistani citizens. Therefore they could get divorced legally in Pakistan.

[adnan111]

NICOP is issued only to Pakistani citizens.

So, logically, if NZama1 and his ex-wife were both NICOP card holders, they were both dual British-Pakistani citizens. Therefore they could get divorced legally in Pakistan.

I got a visa and went to Pakistan and then wanted to get Pakistan Origin Card to get visa free entry and they gave me NICOP instead. Although NADRA states on its website it is for Pakistani Citizens I am not sure about its legal validity in terms of nationality. To me if you have Pakistani passport then you have Pakistani nationality.

[geriatrix]

According to SET 13.4:

Under the Family Law Act 1986 an overseas divorce obtained by means of judicial or other proceedings is recognised in the UK only if:

- it is effective under the law of the country in which it was obtained; and
- at the relevant date (that is, the date on which proceedings were begun), either party was either habitually resident or domiciled in that country or was a national of that country.

The term ‘judicial or other proceedings’ requires that there should have been some formal proceedings, either before a court or some other formal body recognised by the state for that purpose (for example, in Pakistan the Union Council). It is an important aspect that the judicial or other body should be impartial as to the outcome of the proceedings.

All requirements are met by NZama1 - divorce granted and effective in Pakistan; both NZama1 and first spouse are citizens of Pakistan (note use of "or" in the requirement); divorce granted by the Union Council;

An overseas divorce obtained otherwise than by means of proceedings is recognised in the UK if:

it is effective under the law of the country in which it was obtained; and
at the relevant date (that is, the date on which the divorce was obtained), both parties were domiciled in that country or one was domiciled there and the other was domiciled in a country which recognised the divorce; and
neither party had been habitually resident in the UK throughout the period of one year immediately preceding that date.
The term ‘otherwise than by means of proceedings’ covers, for example, a meeting of family members convened to dissolve a West African customary marriage or to hear the pronouncement of talaq.

Not relevant because NZama1's divorce was not obtained "otherwise than my means of proceedings" but granted by Union Council of Pakistan, so the "domicile" of Pakistani-British citizens does not come into play.

So why is NZama1's divorce not legal in the UK?

[geriatrix]

To me if you have Pakistani passport then you have Pakistani nationality.

You mean to say the millions of Pakistanis who haven't had a passport issued because they don't need to travel abroad are not citizens of Pakistan ..... just because they do not hold a Pakistani passport??

Pakistan law allows dual nationality to its citizens who have acquired British nationality (and if I am not wrong 15 other countries). This essentially means that a Pakistani citizen who acquires British nationality remains a Pakistani citizen until he renounces his/her Pakistani citizenship through prescribed procedure. Therefore, any formal document (passport, NICOP etc.etc.) that certifies a British national's Pakistani citizenship is good enough.

[adnan111]

To me if you have Pakistani passport then you have Pakistani nationality.

You mean to say the millions of Pakistanis who haven't had a passport issued because they don't need to travel abroad are not citizens of Pakistan ..... just because they do not hold a Pakistani passport??

Pakistan law allows dual nationality to its citizens who have acquired British nationality (and if I am not wrong 15 other countries). This essentially means that a Pakistani citizen who acquires British nationality remains a Pakistani citizen until he renounces his/her Pakistani citizenship through prescribed procedure. Therefore, any formal document (passport, NICOP etc.etc.) that certifies a British national's Pakistani citizenship is good enough.

If that is the case then everything should be fine and NZama1 should make an application and provide evidence of his divorce in Pakistani courts and a divorce certificate issued by Union Council on NADRA paper.

[NZama1]

I did exactly that, but visa refused. ECO acknowledged the fact that I submitted a union council divorce certificate but in addition to this also wanted to see a British divorce certificate because I am also a British national. And in the set rules mentioned earlier they say you have to be a national of that country maybe that means national of just Pakistan and not dual national at time of divorce?

[geriatrix]

Appeal the decision.

[adnan111]

I did exactly that, but visa refused. ECO acknowledged the fact that I submitted a union council divorce certificate but in addition to this also wanted to see a British divorce certificate because I am also a British national. And in the set rules mentioned earlier they say you have to be a national of that country maybe that means national of just Pakistan and not dual national at time of divorce?

Perhaps they are trying to limit the rules to discourage people getting divorced abroad, however the rules seem clear so put in an appeal and hopefully the decision will get overturned, if not then you could try to get a divorce here as well. If not having a UK divorce was the sole basis of refusal then after decree absolute you should be fine, but you shouldn't have to get a divorce here if you have a valid divorce overseas, so try the appeal first.

[gaff]

HI im in the same situation do you have a update on this particular case as i also have a nicop card, does this possibly mean the pakistani divorce is valid and recognised. many thanks

[NZama1]

NICOP card does not mean you are a pakistan national.
Next step after obtaining a uk divorce is to re register the nikha nama in pakistan so that the new date is after the uk divorce date however im not sure how easy that is to do or alternativly apply as a fiance first, get married at the registry office then apply again as a spouse visa