Registering as a jobseeker without yet having NIN. How fast?

[clearnewblueuk]

How fast and how simply can I register at Job Centre for the purpose of being a "qualified person" as a jobseeker if I don't yet have NIN? I have read gov.uk website, it says that if I don't have NIN, then Job Centre workers will help me to apply for it. However, it is not clear whether right after I will apply for NIN they will be able to register me as unemployed and I will be able to look for a job right away, OR will I need to first wait for NIN and only then they will register me and I will become a "qualified person" as a jobseeker. Let's say my initial three months during which I don't have to exercise treaty rights are going to end soon, that's why I want to know this important for me detail.

I understand that regulations say I (EU citizen) have to be registered either at Job Centre or another job agency. I'd like to perhaps do the first one, and then if for some reason there are problems, then another job agency. I have also read that Job Centre will only register is one also registers for JSA and it seems that registering for JSA will not be considered being an "unreasonable burden" and will not mean later on that I wasn't exercising my treaty rights in the rights way. Is this correct?

Thank you very much.

[PrestonLancs]

Why not just apply for NI number.

You will have to go through for an interview for that at job centre. When you attend the interview, explain your full circumstances. If you get a NI number, you will get it. If they refuse, then you will know in black and white what exactly to do.

[clearnewblueuk]

I know I will have to apply for NIN, like I wrote. Question is will I be a "qualified person" exactly after I apply.

But I have found that in regulation there is no mention of registering at Job Centre at all. So maybe that's not even a requirement after all, then my question would be solved and it would seem that getting NIN isn't a requirement to become a jobseeker. But I'm somewhat sure I've read a topic in which registering at Job Centre was cited as a requirement.

[PrestonLancs]

Yes, you have to be registered as jobseeker with jobcentre. The anwer to everything you are asking lies in a the place called jobcentre.

If jobseeker was just a state of mind, then everyone would be a qualified person.

[clearnewblueuk]

So the answer to every question about immigration lies on gov.uk website and there's no point of asking anything on this forum? Plenty of people should be able to answer the question as plenty of people already registered.

[sheraz7]

Normally a caseworker only accept an EU national a job seeker (qualified person) when has already worked for at least one year and now due to his/her involuntary unemployment has been seeking work & registered with employment office. Although an EU national can enter as a job seeker to become a qualified person and few old case studies/judgement available (if Google search) but unfortunately a caseworker usually is not being convinced from that.

[clearnewblueuk]

So this means that regulations aren't really being followed and jobseeker isn't really an option? Because regulations contain no such requirement that a jobseeker can only be a qualified person if having worked before. Unless I have missed something major.

[PrestonLancs]

If that means that regulations are not being followed, then its good. We should not follow such regulations.
We do not want this country to become benefits supermarket destination for EU citizens.
IMHO EU citizens who fail to find a job in 3 months, should be put back on a plane back home.

[Universal soldier]

100% regulations no EU country follows and UK still relatively generous and better than many EU states. Even some EU countries a non-eu national cannot go outside even during sunshine times. 100% EU criteria no EU country follow and UK is still better.

[clearnewblueuk]

I have found these regulations on UK government's website where all laws can be found. So how am I supposed to know which provisions UK pleases to follow and which not? I wasn't even looking for a job because regulations say there are no conditions for the first 3 months in a country.
From what I have read on the forum, one can't register as a job seeker without also registering for JSA. So basically UK forces everyone to get benefits if they want to look for work. I suppose I'm to blame if I want to just register as a job seeker and they won't let me. What a benefit scrounger I am.

Is CSI still a requirement for being self-sufficient? I've been led to believe that showing cash is enough by one government worker, but I don't suppose I can trust what they have said.

[clearnewblueuk]

https://www.gov.uk/eea-registration-certificate page about registration certificates as an example:

You don’t need a registration certificate if you:

• are a ‘qualified person’, ie you’re working, studying, self-employed, self-sufficient or looking for work

...

Since one can only get registration certificate after 3 months of initial residence, this page acknowledges that being a job seeker equals being qualified person and doesn't state that one can only be qualified job seeker if he/she have been a worker before for at least one year. Also, this quote clearly implies that one can be a qualified job seeker after being in UK for 3 months. It even puts it more simply - just "looking for work".

This is not just regulations. It's government's website that is saying this.

There's is also another quote from elsewhere on gov.uk:

Beyond the initial three month period an EEA national is entitled to remain in the UK as a „qualified person‟ through exercising a Treaty right.

The term „Treaty right‟ refers to the following categories:
Jobseeker
Worker
Self-employed person
Student
Self-sufficient person.

Reading these quotes I don't understand why some of you are saying what you're saying. If you're right, maybe I could register with another job agency and exercise treaty right that way?

[clearnewblueuk]

Please help me understand this better.

Does anyone disagree that Job Centre won't register people as job seekers (qualified persons) unless they have worked before for a year?

[clearnewblueuk]

To be a qualified person as self-employed does one really need to be registered with HMRC? I have read that one has 3 months to register since they start trading, so I thought that logically then it would follow that self-employment counts from the day a person starts trading regardless if they register with HMRC right away or not. But is this incorrect?

At least one advanced forum member wrote that exercising treaty rights in first 3 months isn't required. But isn't there a catch because to be a qualified person as self-employed one needs to be registered with HMRC, but to register with HMRC one needs to have a national insurance number, but to get that number one has to wait for up to one month or more. So does that mean that essentially one has to start exercising treaty rights before three months end, otherwise it's not possible to meet all the requirements?

[clearnewblueuk]

If that means that regulations are not being followed, then its good. We should not follow such regulations.
We do not want this country to become benefits supermarket destination for EU citizens.
IMHO EU citizens who fail to find a job in 3 months, should be put back on a plane back home.

Even if I become a jobseeker, I'm not entitled to benefits, they're only for workers. I didn't look for a job because I thought (seems like a mistake that I've read gov.uk and thought) I could easily just look for a job after 3 months and be qualified. I understand that many people don't have money to be in a country for 3 months, but I did, and now it looks like I'm about to get hurt for that. I have provided a quote from gov.uk which clearly states that "looking for work" equals being qualified (equals not needing a registration certificate). This contradicts the answer by sheraz7. It says "looking for work" and doesn't say "looking for work after you've been a worker for a year". Does it? I wish to be able to trust what I'm reading.

I need correct answers very much, please. No answer is better than a confusing one.

[clearnewblueuk]

Up.

[clearnewblueuk]

Up.

[clearnewblueuk]

Going to attempt to answer my own question if you don't mind. Here's what I have found:

It is clear from UK case law. that someone who is “taking steps” towards establishing themselves as self employed will have the status of a self-employed person:

R(IS)6/00 held that the crucial factor was ‘whether the person is taking steps towards offering services to the public, or otherwise setting up as a self-employed person’ (para. 31).
TG v SSWP [2009] UKUT 58 (AAC)7 where the claimant had not registered with HMRC, had been setting up the as a self employed interpreter for only 2 months and had at the date of decision failed to make any profit at all- the claimant was still held to be self employed.
Note that the DWP guidance to Local Authorities on HB/CTB implies that to be accepted as a self-employed person they will need to see proof of an actual business that is up and running.8That is incorrect given that the case law indicates that someone who is doing things to set themselves up as self employed has that status.

It is important to note the finding in TG v SSWP [2009] UKUT 58 (AAC) that a failure to register with HMRC for tax purposes did not mean a person could not be self employed (although it might count as evidence that they may not be).

http://www.cpag.org.uk/content/right-re ... ent-review

Correct? This is dated 2011. Were there any changes?

[clearnewblueuk]

The result is that the appeal tribunal erred in law in apparently applying a different interpretation of Directive 73/148. The appeal tribunal apparently considered that the claimant could not have a right of residence until she had actually started teaching someone French. Alternatively the appeal tribunal may have thought that, because the claimant's immediate reason for entering the United Kingdom was not to pursue activities as a self-employed person, but to have her baby here, she was precluded from later being entitled to a right of residence pursuant to the Directive. Both of those approaches are wrong in law.

http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/pdfs/cmmr_u ... 355997.doc

The appeal tribunal was arguing something similar to what sheraz7 saying a caseworker would argue in relation to a jobseeker http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... 89577.html. This judgement, honestly, was exactly what I have expected this to work correctly, in a liberal way. Just because someone entered with one plan, that shouldn't preclude them to go another route, and also, requiring having been working for a year to become a jobseeker frankly doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever, especially since gov.uk clearly implies a more simple approach. Any thoughts are welcome. Is this judgement being respected with current EEA application/or determination of EEA national's status?

[clearnewblueuk]

Up.

[clearnewblueuk]

In old (2013) self-employment threads people say that one has three months to register with HMRC from the day they start trading. I understand this means that one can start trading near the end of the 3 month initial residence and then have 3 months to register. But is it now changed with new laws? Because EEA1 form seems to require HMRC registration and even earnings. So is it the case that it is necessary to have earnings to be qualified, whereas before it wasn't required? It would mean that I wouldn't not be exercising treaty rights, which would be very bad for me. I think it's very sad if this is the case.

[clearnewblueuk]

Can I claim that I have started trading at the end of initial residence period and provide just advertisements online, nothing else, and then do HMRC registration later in another 3 months? EEA1 form leaves an option to say that one isn't registered with HMRC. Should this be understood as it's not a requirement? Otherwise why there would be this option if it would automatically lead to rejection of application?

Please, someone help me understand this. There is NO clear information about it. Gov.uk says there are 3 months to register with HMRC, so if that is the case, then it logically follows that one could be self-employed before registering, or not?

[clearnewblueuk]

Interestingly, helping an illegal "morrocan" immigrant getting married is more important http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... 91190.html than my questions.
This says it all really. People from EU need to be kicked in three months because to hell with following directives or even what gov.uk says, while "morrocans" face such hardships like entering illegally and marrying. We need to get all of the best members on that case quickly guys.

[Casa]

If members aren't logged-on who have the answers to your questions then it's pointless to simply guess. With respect, your last post won't help your case.

[omonile]

Nice one CASA!!! Could he be reminded that this is a free forum and no participant is Obliged, besides, its free will of everyone especially the ever helpful moderators. Cheers!

[clearnewblueuk]

Laws should be easy to understand, right? So these questions should not be hard to answer? Please help, it's very important.