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Spouse Visa Refused due to overstay :(.. Whats Next??

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awesomeadil
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Spouse Visa Refused due to overstay :(.. Whats Next??

Post by awesomeadil » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:18 am

Hi,

My spouse visa was refused yesterday only on the basis of my overstay, the ECO was not interested in anything except that mundane detail. She said she didnt doubt our relationship. I was totaly honest about what happend and took responsibility for it. But the reasons she gave wer soo outrageous its made me really mad... I want to get this overturened what steps do i have to take, Can I do anything without appealing???

aniya
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Post by aniya » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:13 am

if u dont mind me asking..what country was that in??i have a similar situation and am planning to apply for the spouse visa...n all these problems are freaking me out..n giving me goose bumps.. :cry:

awesomeadil
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Post by awesomeadil » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:26 am

That happend in Chennai, India... Please make sure that you tread carefully. I had no clue that my application would be assessed on my previous stay. The ECO even said my relationship is in no doubt.. I just dont get this, Spouse visa has to do with marriage and stuff and they know these people are legally married, what it gonna do with the past.. shouldnt it the present and concentrate of what my plans are now rather than what happend before...

This is as if I had comitted a Murder and Im being given a life sentence... :evil:

avjones
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Post by avjones » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:17 am

Were you refused under general policy grounds?
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

aniya
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hmm

Post by aniya » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:40 am

i have the idea that they will know about my overstay..but as i have gone through all these threads ...i know that i have to behonest and tell them the way it was ...no lie nothing...
i dont know about ur situation...was there anything u didnt mention to them about ur past..
??

this is just soo scary ...i dont wish no one to grow through this...
how long did u overstay for????

awesomeadil
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Post by awesomeadil » Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:16 am

Let me just post what they wrote in the refusal letter.

But first let me tell you about my circumstances. I lost my passport while i was moving house. It was reported to Old Trafford Police Station. So all I have is the photocopies of my passport which I kept prior to my departure to Britian in 2002. So naturally it wont have any arrival stamp. I attended Keele University for one whole year before my dad couldnt sponsor me anymore as his company went bankrupt. I met my wife during Feb 2003 and was started a relationship from there and is still existing. Ever since discovering that my passport was missing, my calls to Indian High Commission in London, Birmingham and Edinburgh was futile. No answer to phone calls nor any reply to the emails. Consulted with many dodgy solicitors who said all I have to do is visit India and I will return with up to date documents and free passage to UK. I somehow managed to apply for a Emergency Certificate in May 2006 so that it atleast enables me to travel to India. Even then the Indian authorites were making my life miserable who said it wuld take a few weeks for a document. Only after intervention from a fmily member who had contact in the Ministry, that I could get a Emergency Certificate. This was on 10 July and on the 14th I was gone. After arrival in India, the immigration officer gave me a slip that confirms that I indeed came back to India and that was in Dec 2006. Even after arrival it was difficult as I had to endure difficult time to get my passport resissued. It was finally reissued on the 13 of Feb 2007 and my wife came in on the 22nd and then we got married on the 3rd of March and it took some time as she moved jobs and to a new flat for our application.

I will post the whole refusal letter in my next post

awesomeadil
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The Letter given to me

Post by awesomeadil » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:39 pm

The Entry Clearance Officer's Reasons and supporting evidence

I have carefully consdiered your application. However, you do not qualify for a visa for the following reasons.

You were issued Entry Clearance to the UK as a Student on 19 September 2002 to study at Keele University. Youe Entry Clearance expired on 31 October 2003. You stated during the interview that you did not complete your course at Keele University as your father was unable to continue sponsoring youe studies due to his business being shut down. You stste that you move to manchester and started working. You have not provided any evidence to show what you were doing in the UK for all this time. You have submitted no evidence of your immigration status in the UK as a copy of arrival oe exit stamps.

You state you lost your passport in 2005. You reported it missing to the Indian Deputy High Commission in Birmingham. I note that you were issued an emergency passport on 10 July 2006. You state that you returned to India within four days. However, you have not submitted any evidence to support this. I note that your new passport was issued in Hyderabad in February 2007.

Taking the above into consideration i am not satidfied that you have observed the time limit and conditions attached to a previous grant of leave to enter the United Kingdom and I am not prepared to exercise discretion in your favour Paragraph 320(11)

In additio, your lack of evidence of any attendance at Keele University leads me to consider that you obtained your initial entry clearance to the UK by deception. Paragraph 320(12)

I have also taken account of article 8 of the Human Rights Act. I consider that I am justified in refusing this application, under immigration control. I do not believe that refusing this application will interfere with family life, for the purpose of article 8(1), as you can continue to enjoy that in India.

VictoriaS
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Post by VictoriaS » Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:14 pm

This is VERY disturbing. Amanda - have you come across this before? Can refusal on these grounds be appealled?

Until seemingly now, it was policy to allow those who had previously overstayed to enter as a spouse providing they fitted all the rules. If they are now changing this, a lot of people are going to have some serious problems.

Victoria
Going..going...gone!

awesomeadil
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Post by awesomeadil » Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:26 pm

I do have a right to appeal!! I am gonna ask my wife to do it and we are gathering documents... I was shocked to hear what she said. I was a victim of circumstances as everybody's life isnt all hunky dory. I overstayed it was a mistake, Im prepared to pay a fine for it but this ECO lady is treating like I have comitted some sort of Homicide!

sally12345
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Re: The Letter given to me

Post by sally12345 » Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:05 pm

awesomeadil wrote:The Entry Clearance Officer's Reasons and supporting evidence

I have carefully consdiered your application. However, you do not qualify for a visa for the following reasons.

You were issued Entry Clearance to the UK as a Student on 19 September 2002 to study at Keele University. Youe Entry Clearance expired on 31 October 2003. You stated during the interview that you did not complete your course at Keele University as your father was unable to continue sponsoring youe studies due to his business being shut down. You stste that you move to manchester and started working. You have not provided any evidence to show what you were doing in the UK for all this time. You have submitted no evidence of your immigration status in the UK as a copy of arrival oe exit stamps.

You state you lost your passport in 2005. You reported it missing to the Indian Deputy High Commission in Birmingham. I note that you were issued an emergency passport on 10 July 2006. You state that you returned to India within four days. However, you have not submitted any evidence to support this. I note that your new passport was issued in Hyderabad in February 2007.

Taking the above into consideration i am not satidfied that you have observed the time limit and conditions attached to a previous grant of leave to enter the United Kingdom and I am not prepared to exercise discretion in your favour Paragraph 320(11)

In additio, your lack of evidence of any attendance at Keele University leads me to consider that you obtained your initial entry clearance to the UK by deception. Paragraph 320(12)

I have also taken account of article 8 of the Human Rights Act. I consider that I am justified in refusing this application, under immigration control. I do not believe that refusing this application will interfere with family life, for the purpose of article 8(1), as you can continue to enjoy that in India.

Hiya Sorry to hear of your problems you are facing! its mad when you know that you have dne nothing wrong.. you are right its like a murder case!

Im just wondering this can my man still apply for a spousa visa, but he is a overstayer of 3 years? in the uk with the intention on going back im getting worried now if Victoria is saying that they are taking this right away then Im in deep shit! as this was our plan. please help someone?

avjones
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Post by avjones » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:07 am

VictoriaS wrote:This is VERY disturbing. Amanda - have you come across this before? Can refusal on these grounds be appealled?

Until seemingly now, it was policy to allow those who had previously overstayed to enter as a spouse providing they fitted all the rules. If they are now changing this, a lot of people are going to have some serious problems.

Victoria
They aren't changing it precisely, I think. The previous policy seemed to be not to consider the general grounds, and allow an overstayer to enter as a spouse considering the matter on the spouse rules only.

Like you, Victoria, I've NEVER come across a refusal for a spouse visa on the public policy grounds for overstaying.

It will be an appealable decision, under the normal rules. The relevant Rule reads:

Grounds on which entry clearance or leave to enter the United Kingdom should normally be refused

.......

(11) failure to observe the time limit or conditions attached to any grant of leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom;

(12) the obtaining of a previous leave to enter or remain by deception;

The refusal on these grounds does appear to be on both (11) and (12). The suggestion is that as well as overstaying, there was also a deception on the student entry clearance application.

The published policy hasn't changed. It states:

13. PARAGRAPH 320(11) - FAILURE TO OBSERVE TIME LIMIT OR CONDITIONS ATTACHED TO PREVIOUS STAY
Whether or not a passenger satisfies the formal requirements of another paragraph of the Rules, under Paragraph 320(11) his previous immigration history may be taken into account. Refusal under this paragraph is appropriate where a person has shown by his previous conduct that he has contrived in a significant way to frustrate the purpose of the Rules. It is not intended that this paragraph should be used in a punitive manner, and the immigration officer should not seek to rely on, for example, a minor period of overstaying as a sole ground for refusal.
It must be borne in mind that where a current entry clearance is held, leave to enter is not to be refused except in the circumstances described in Paragraph 321 of HC 395 (see Section 3 to this chapter).

14. PARAGRAPH 320(12) - OBTAINING PREVIOUS LEAVE BY DECEPTION
In assessing whether or not refusal under this paragraph is justified, it will be relevant to consider whether disclosure of the true facts would have resulted in refusal. Where, for example, the person concerned has failed to disclose certain facts in the course of a previous application for leave, refusal is unlikely to be justified if those undisclosed facts had no bearing on his application. On the other hand, where it is shown that he misrepresented the truth in respect of facts which were relevant to his case, refusal would be justified.


I am not aware of any relevant case law in relation to spouses etc. I've checked on EIN, and can't see anything there either.

I have wondered in the past why the ECOs don't apply the general grounds for normally refusing to spousal applications, but in my experience they don't.

Who knows what view the AIT may take? Hard to guess, really.

However, I've not seen anything to suggest this is a general change, so we'll have to wait and see. It could just be one ECO.
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

Docterror
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Post by Docterror » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:33 am

It is a sad, sad precedent if the decision is upheld at an appeal and other ECOs also start following suit! Just when you think you have seen all possible reasons for a refusal, another one crops up.
Jabi

awesomeadil
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Post by awesomeadil » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:28 am

Its soo piss taking. When I went for the interview. The ECO woman expected me to have documents from Keele University and other stuff like a photocopy of my lost passport which was stamped. This is something one wouldnt keep for a spouse visa.. and she was going on about balance of probabilities... what on earth is that!!! In the above letter she says that Human Rights Article 8, that this doesnt interfere with my family life, so in other word she is saying my wife should come live in India with me i.e telling my wife a Born and Bred Brit who only left the country to marry me to get out of UK if you wanna be with your Husband. I would call this discrimnation.

awesomeadil
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Another letter given to me

Post by awesomeadil » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:44 am

Entry Clearance Officers Decision

I have refused your Visa Application on this occasion because I am not satisfied, on the balance of probabilities, that you meet all the requirements of Paragraph 278 and 281 of the immigration rules. This decision was made on the merits of this application. However, if you have a previous application and immigration history, this may have been considered.

avjones
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Post by avjones » Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:01 pm

awesomeadil wrote:In the above letter she says that Human Rights Article 8, that this doesnt interfere with my family life, so in other word she is saying my wife should come live in India with me i.e telling my wife a Born and Bred Brit who only left the country to marry me to get out of UK if you wanna be with your Husband. I would call this discrimnation.
Discrimination - for what reasons?

Article 8 doesn't give married couples a right to choose their country of residence, I'm afraid.
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

OL7MAX
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Post by OL7MAX » Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:20 pm

I wonder: In this age of targets - where social workers have targets to take a fixed number of children into care each year (irrespective of how many need care) - do ECOs have targets for number or percentage of refusals? What is the motivation behind big changes in usual practice like this? What incentives exist for ECOs to turn applications down?

Also, on another matter, I've gone through a fair few threads here. The more absurd decisions all seem to be happening in Chennai. That includes a case I posted about myself - a retired lady who had visited the UK several times and had a clean history was turned down as the ECO didn't believe she intended to return. I must explain that none of her personal circumstances had changed. It took an AIT hearing letter before the ECO miraculously "changed his mind". A lot of the flimsy ground refusals seem to be happening in Chennai. Hmm! Why would that be? Any theories?

awesomeadil
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Post by awesomeadil » Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:32 pm

I think I didnt use the correct word.... But according to what i gather from the reason, she is basically implying that if my wife wants to be with me then she should leave Britian... Is that what she means in the letter???

paulp
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Re: Spouse Visa Refused due to overstay :(.. Whats Next??

Post by paulp » Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:27 pm

awesomeadil wrote:My spouse visa was refused yesterday only on the basis of my overstay, the ECO was not interested in anything except that mundane detail.
sally12345 wrote:Hiya Sorry to hear of your problems you are facing! its mad when you know that you have dne nothing wrong.. you are right its like a murder case!
Am I the only one who thinks that an overstay is more than "mundane" or "nothing wrong"?

Wanderer
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Re: Spouse Visa Refused due to overstay :(.. Whats Next??

Post by Wanderer » Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:38 pm

paulp wrote:
awesomeadil wrote:My spouse visa was refused yesterday only on the basis of my overstay, the ECO was not interested in anything except that mundane detail.
sally12345 wrote:Hiya Sorry to hear of your problems you are facing! its mad when you know that you have dne nothing wrong.. you are right its like a murder case!
Am I the only one who thinks that an overstay is more than "mundane" or "nothing wrong"?
I must concur, when I go to Russia I constantly shit myself for fear of falling foul of their foreigner laws and rules, so much so I panic for the whole trip, it could balls up any future visits...

So I make sure I don't overstay.
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

awesomeadil
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Post by awesomeadil » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:26 pm

Paul mate!!! Sometimes you overstay for a genuine reason as circumstances can change suddenly. I had one, I lost my passport and I could get one for a long time. Now if I have a genuine reason and my countrys representation dont give a crap then there is nothin I could do..

Docterror
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Post by Docterror » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:23 pm

awesomeadil, you had only lost your passport only in 2005, by which time you had already overstayed for 2 years assuming that you did attend the university in 2002-2003. So, please do not act coy about the whole thing and blame it on the losing of the passport.

If situation changes, according to the law, you are required to report it and you did no such thing for quite a while and the only reason I am interested in seeing your case through is because overstaying is usually never a reason for refusal.

Had I been an ECO and been given the authority on judging cases on the basis of previous records as well, I would see it no differently. In fact I would even doubt your relationship with your wife. So, think twice about your tone when playing the victim card.
Jabi

awesomeadil
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Post by awesomeadil » Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:57 pm

Frankly, All I did was act on bad advice! I approached an Immigration Barrister which was advertised in a Asian Newspaper who advised me not to report it to the home office and not to report it to the police because according to him me and my wife could be jailed.. he wanted 2000 pounds for getting the things set right. That was coming from a Barrister, I mean someone with that title would naturally be trusted but it was evident that he just wanted to prey on our helplessness. Neways, I got an Emergency Passport thing done and returned to India to set things right. Anyway we have gathtered documents for the appeal,

We have

everything we submitted for the original app
plus transcripts from my University for the year attended

Arrival Acknowledgement as the Emergency passport is retained by Officials

Ticket from Manchester to Hyderabad

And a detailed essay on how my circumstances changed

Anythin else I need to add!!!

OL7MAX
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Post by OL7MAX » Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:13 pm

All I did was act on bad advice!
I still think you're still playing the victim. I don't believe this barrister story for one moment but even if it's true you are effectively admitting that when you know you've done something illegal you run from the law. And that you did.

Making the odd mistake is something everyone has done. Running from mistakes made or pretending they didn't happen is almost always not in your own best interests. That undertone of victim in your documentation is not going to endear you to the next ECO. Get over it. Get real. Call a spade a spade. Cut the BS.

I would re-write that "essay".

SYH
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Post by SYH » Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:45 pm

awesomeadil wrote:Frankly, All I did was act on bad advice! I approached an Immigration Barrister which was advertised in a Asian Newspaper who advised me not to report it to the home office and not to report it to the police because according to him me and my wife could be jailed.. he wanted 2000 pounds for getting the things set right. That was coming from a Barrister, I mean someone with that title would naturally be trusted but it was evident that he just wanted to prey on our helplessness. Neways, I got an Emergency Passport thing done and returned to India to set things right. Anyway we have gathtered documents for the appeal,

We have

everything we submitted for the original app
plus transcripts from my University for the year attended

Arrival Acknowledgement as the Emergency passport is retained by Officials

Ticket from Manchester to Hyderabad

And a detailed essay on how my circumstances changed

Anythin else I need to add!!!
Well usually when a solicitor doesn't wish to discuss something with the authorities, then it is tip off they are not on the up and up. Wanting the 2000 pounds pretty heavy payment should have been your red flag.
Unfortunately taking advice is not the HO problem, when you hire a solicitor, then you say he represents you. You are still responsible for his actions including bad advice

OL7MAX
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Post by OL7MAX » Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:15 am

when a solicitor doesn't wish to discuss something
Note that he didn't speak to a solicitor, he spoke to a "barrister". First red light there ;)

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