ESOL qualifications

[RNA]

Hi,

My wife is about to apply for naturalisation. I am British by birth and my wife is Romanian. She originally came to the UK a decade ago on a marriage visa and we have lived here since, so would easily meet the time requirements for residency (although she has never applied for the PR confirmation).

My question is over the English language requirements. Her bachelors degree with in Romanian so trying to determine if her other qualifications are sufficient.

She has previously passed the following qualifications. The answer is probably obvious, but for both exams against "ESOL qualifications that are required for citizenship" they state "Not Set" rather than "Yes", which has us questioning their suitability as I have read about some qualifications not being accepted.

http://register.ofqual.gov.uk/Qualifica ... 100_2664_2
Qualification Number: 100/2664/2
Title: Cambridge ESOL Level 4 Certificate in Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages (CELTA)

http://register.ofqual.gov.uk/Qualifica ... 100_2715_4
Qualification Number:100/2715/4
Title: TCL Level 7 Licentiate Diploma in Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages (LTCL)

She is also a qualified IELTS examiner, so I presume would be unable to take an IELTS exam. If the above qualifications are not sufficient would a letter from the exam centre be sufficient to prove her English language competence?

The answer is probably obvious, though I cannot find examples online relating to the above qualifications and am looking for reassurance that they are sufficient, so any guidance would be appreciated please.

Many thanks

[bestshow]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _tests.pdf

[RNA]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _tests.pdf

Thanks. I did read that list before posting as those are not explicitly listed, however, as some other exams (such as an English language degree) are accepted I was wondering whether these are suitable. As far as I can see they are listed on the Ofqual qualifications list as ESOL Level 4 and Level 7 (so higher than ESOL Entry Level 3) so I would expect them to be fine, though the database does have "not set" rather than a definite "Yes" or "No" to them being acceptable.

Has anyone else on here used those exams (Level 4 Celta or Level 7 Delta) as proof of English competency?
Are there any other IELTS examiners on here who have had to prove their English competency for naturalisation? My wife is effectively a native speaker, although English is not her first language.

[bestshow]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _tests.pdf

Thanks. I did read that list before posting as those are not explicitly listed, however, as some other exams (such as an English language degree) are accepted I was wondering whether these are suitable. As far as I can see they are listed on the Ofqual qualifications list as ESOL Level 4 and Level 7 (so higher than ESOL Entry Level 3) so I would expect them to be fine, though the database does have "not set" rather than a definite "Yes" or "No" to them being acceptable.

Has anyone else on here used those exams (Level 4 Celta or Level 7 Delta) as proof of English competency?
Are there any other IELTS examiners on here who have had to prove their English competency for naturalisation? My wife is effectively a native speaker, although English is not her first language.

If she is not from the majority speaking English countries or does not have a degree by English language, so she has to meet the English langauge requirements which is set by the HO, and simply the HO can reject her application if they think she does not meet the English langauge requirement or in best scenario they will ask her to take a test from acceptable test centre and they will refer her to the previous pdf.
so I would advise you to let her take ESOL B1 speaking and listening test from Trinity College London.

[noajthan]

Hi,

My wife is about to apply for naturalisation. I am British by birth and my wife is Romanian. She originally came to the UK a decade ago on a marriage visa and we have lived here since, so would easily meet the time requirements for residency (although she has never applied for the PR confirmation).

My question is over the English language requirements. Her bachelors degree with in Romanian so trying to determine if her other qualifications are sufficient.

She has previously passed the following qualifications. The answer is probably obvious, but for both exams against "ESOL qualifications that are required for citizenship" they state "Not Set" rather than "Yes", which has us questioning their suitability as I have read about some qualifications not being accepted.

http://register.ofqual.gov.uk/Qualifica ... 100_2664_2
Qualification Number: 100/2664/2
Title: Cambridge ESOL Level 4 Certificate in Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages (CELTA)

http://register.ofqual.gov.uk/Qualifica ... 100_2715_4
Qualification Number:100/2715/4
Title: TCL Level 7 Licentiate Diploma in Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages (LTCL)

She is also a qualified IELTS examiner, so I presume would be unable to take an IELTS exam. If the above qualifications are not sufficient would a letter from the exam centre be sufficient to prove her English language competence?

The answer is probably obvious, though I cannot find examples online relating to the above qualifications and am looking for reassurance that they are sufficient, so any guidance would be appreciated please.

Many thanks

A letter or testimonial from an exam centre is unlikely to be accepted as the rules appear to be applied by the letter; (pun not intended).

The qualifications mentioned do have ESOL in the title and do appear in the Ofqual register so if you can provide evidence that they also are of a higher level than CEFR B1 you may have a case;
(the AN booklet does not explicitly state the ESOL certificate has to be a learner's qualification - so a teacher's qualification is not explicitly excluded).

Suggest a letter to the HO may be your best way to decide;
(a call to the helpline may be too risky, as the answer probably then depends on the calibre/experience of whoever replies).

If all this still seems too risky then it appears a retest is going to be required (however silly that may seem in your wife's case).

btw - be careful about the requirements for attaining PR;
for example if claiming PR as a self-sufficient 'qualified' person be sure to check the CSI requirement. (A presence of 10 years per se is not enough).

Good luck.

[RNA]

Thanks for the replies. I suppose a letter to the HO might be the only way to formally clear up the requirements.

I was trying to find more relating to the IELTS side of things. They don't give out a lot of information, though did find the following on the IELTS website:

http://www.ielts.org/microtraining/modu ... page12.htm
All IELTS examiner applicants must: be native speakers of English or a non-native speaker with an IELTS band score of 9 in the Speaking and Writing components

...which obviously far exceeds to requirements for knowledge of the English language . IELTS scores of 8.5 or higher equate to CEFR C2. How to formalise it on paper for HO requirements is what is giving us a headache!

The requirements as I see on the gov.uk generically cover "an English qualification at B1, B2, C1 or C2 level"...
https://www.gov.uk/english-language
You can prove it by having either:an English qualification at B1, B2, C1 or C2 level .

As far as CSI goes, she has been entitled to work in the UK since 2005, has a National Insurance number plus an EHIC card issued in the UK (which she needs to carry when holidaying back in Romania). My understanding was that an EHIC card issued in the UK plus family members being covered was sufficient evidence for CSI? (our children are British, as am I).

I presume PR would be best applied for in the basis of: "I’ve lived in the UK for a continuous period of five years as an EEA national qualified person, the family member or extended family member of a qualified person, or a combination of these."

[noajthan]

Thanks for the replies. I suppose a letter to the HO might be the only way to formally clear up the requirements.

I was trying to find more relating to the IELTS side of things. They don't give out a lot of information, though did find the following on the IELTS website:

http://www.ielts.org/microtraining/modu ... page12.htm
All IELTS examiner applicants must: be native speakers of English or a non-native speaker with an IELTS band score of 9 in the Speaking and Writing components

...which obviously far exceeds to requirements for knowledge of the English language . IELTS scores of 8.5 or higher equate to CEFR C2. How to formalise it on paper for HO requirements is what is giving us a headache!

The requirements as I see on the gov.uk generically cover "an English qualification at B1, B2, C1 or C2 level"...
https://www.gov.uk/english-language
You can prove it by having either:an English qualification at B1, B2, C1 or C2 level .

As far as CSI goes, she has been entitled to work in the UK since 2005, has a National Insurance number plus an EHIC card issued in the UK (which she needs to carry when holidaying back in Romania). My understanding was that an EHIC card issued in the UK plus family members being covered was sufficient evidence for CSI? (our children are British, as am I).

I presume PR would be best applied for in the basis of: "I’ve lived in the UK for a continuous period of five years as an EEA national qualified person, the family member or extended family member of a qualified person, or a combination of these."

On ESOL and demonstrating the value of alternative qualifications, this may help:
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/pankina ... f-english/

Note the ESOL qualification needs to have been taken in UK (England or Wales or NI).
For the benefit of the HO caseworker try to obtain evidence that really telegraphs your case.

It may still be simplest to err on the side of caution, bite the bullet & take another test that HO can readily accept.
(Note: there is no right of appeal if a naturalisation application is refused, the only option would be to request a 'reconsideration').

On the PR side be careful.
As you are a BC the HO will not (usually) treat you as an EEA national and so your wife cannot apply as the family member of an EEA national.
She will have to acquire PR in her own right as a 'qualified person'.
(The only exception I'm aware of would be the 'Surinder Singh' route if you have previously lived & worked abroad somewhere in Europe.).

If applying for PR as a student or self-sufficient qualified person, my understanding is an EHIC card is only accepted as a temporary measure. And it would have to be issued by the EEA country (not by UK).
For a longer-term resident in the UK some form of CSI would be required unless you can get a document from the Romanian authorities under some sort of reciprocal healthcare agreement with UK.
(The other qualified person options include worker/jobseeker, self-employed).

Best of luck.

[RNA]

On ESOL and demonstrating the value of alternative qualifications, this may help:
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/pankina ... f-english/

Note the ESOL qualification needs to have been taken in UK (England or Wales or NI).
For the benefit of the HO caseworker try to obtain evidence that really telegraphs your case.

It may still be simplest to err on the side of caution, bite the bullet & take another test that HO can readily accept.
(Note: there is no right of appeal if a naturalisation application is refused, the only option would be to request a 'reconsideration').

On the PR side be careful.
As you are a BC the HO will not (usually) treat you as an EEA national and so your wife cannot apply as the family member of an EEA national.
She will have to acquire PR in her own right as a 'qualified person'.
(The only exception I'm aware of would be the 'Surinder Singh' route if you have previously lived & worked abroad somewhere in Europe.).

If applying for PR as a student or self-sufficient qualified person, my understanding is an EHIC card is only accepted as a temporary measure. And it would have to be issued by the EEA country (not by UK).
For a longer-term resident in the UK some form of CSI would be required unless you can get a document from the Romanian authorities under some sort of reciprocal healthcare agreement with UK.
(The other qualified person options include worker/jobseeker, self-employed).

Best of luck.

Thanks for the reply.

ESOL qualifications were done in the UK. One of the issues I see is that as an examiner I don't think she can take a public IELTS test?

Was going to bypass the PR and apply straight for naturalisation. As far as I can see she is entitled to PR on her own basis as an EEA-national qualified person, so me being a BC is not important?

I fail to understand these requirements for CSI. She has lived and worked in the UK for ten years, and has an National Insurance and NHS number. Surely an NHS number is proof of CSI? She is covered the same as I am for healthcare from the NHS. The doctor has treated her when she was ill and when she had our children, so can't see her not having CSI? Confused if that is not sufficient?

[noajthan]

Thanks for the reply.

ESOL qualifications were done in the UK. One of the issues I see is that as an examiner I don't think she can take a public IELTS test?

Was going to bypass the PR and apply straight for naturalisation. As far as I can see she is entitled to PR on her own basis as an EEA-national qualified person, so me being a BC is not important?

I fail to understand these requirements for CSI. She has lived and worked in the UK for ten years, and has an National Insurance and NHS number. Surely an NHS number is proof of CSI? She is covered the same as I am for healthcare from the NHS. The doctor has treated her when she was ill and when she had our children, so can't see her not having CSI? Confused if that is not sufficient?

I don't know about any rules barring examiners from English tests.

Ah, I wasn't clear she is a worker.
No, a NI number or NHS number is not the same as a CSI policy in this context - but it now doesn't matter.

As a 'worker' type of qualified person exercising treaty rights she does not need to hold CSI; (I had the impression she was applying as a 'self-sufficient' person which is why I had mentioned it).

PR still has to be 'acquired' in order to apply to naturalise whether or not the applicant actually applies for a PR card.
You will find many threads here on the merits of either approach (ie to naturalise with/without PR card).

As a worker for past 10 years it's most likely she has acquired PR by now.
And as married to a BC she will not have to wait 12 months after acquiring PR to be free of all immigration time restrictions.

[RNA]

Thanks for the reply.

I don't know about any rules barring examiners from English tests.

Ah, I wasn't clear she is a worker.
No, a NI number or NHS number is not the same as a CSI policy in this context - but it now doesn't matter.

As a 'worker' type of qualified person exercising treaty rights she does not need to hold CSI; (I had the impression she was applying as a 'self-sufficient' person which is why I had mentioned it).

PR still has to be 'acquired' in order to apply to naturalise whether or not the applicant actually applies for a PR card.
You will find many threads here on the merits of either approach (ie to naturalise with/without PR card).

As a worker for past 10 years it's most likely she has acquired PR by now.
And as married to a BC she will not have to wait 12 months after acquiring PR to be free of all immigration time restrictions.

Thanks again.

One reason she would go straight to applying for citizenship, and not PR first, is that we generally holiday every 6 months or so, so cannot be without her passport for an indeterminate length of time. Will probably use the Nationality Checking Service so we can retain the original documents.

She was on a Residence Permit (from December 2005 to December 2007) so was resident and working when Romania joined the EU on 1st January 2007. My understanding is her 5 years of exercising European treaty rights in the UK for PR started on the 1st January 2007 and could be used instead of her RP under UK immigration law.

I was expecting her to require the sixth year before being entitled to apply for citizenship (so after 1st January 2013) though if you say she does not need that as I am a BC then that would be 1st January 2012. The fact she has a Residence Permit covering Dec 2005 to Dec 2007, along with wage slips, credit card and council tax bills, etc, means it is simple for us to provide evidence she was in the UK and able to exercise the European treaty rights from January 2007.

Regarding her English qualifications, waiting for a reply from the HO.

[martin54]

I am in the same shoe like your wife... i applied in march and i got entry and level 2 of English which included my application but Casework request for ESOL from new approve centre, which i did and sent yesterday. My best advice for your wife to do the new ESOL from Trinity College London which you can find more information on their website. if she apply now without new approve centre the application might be refused.

Goodluck

[noajthan]

I was expecting her to require the sixth year before being entitled to apply for citizenship (so after 1st January 2013) though if you say she does not need that as I am a BC then that would be 1st January 2012. The fact she has a Residence Permit covering Dec 2005 to Dec 2007, along with wage slips, credit card and council tax bills, etc, means it is simple for us to provide evidence she was in the UK and able to exercise the European treaty rights from January 2007.

See booklet, particularly sections 2,4,5.
Ref also section 6 which clarifies the time exemption for spouse of BC:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... n_2015.pdf

[RNA]

I did finally get a reply from the HO. Advised her ESOL teaching qualifications are acceptable as they are ESOL and higher than Entry Level 3, though with the change on the 5th November she would need to submit her application by then for them to be accepted (going to use the NCS as she needs her passport in a month's time).

[noajthan]

I did finally get a reply from the HO. Advised her ESOL teaching qualifications are acceptable as they are ESOL and higher than Entry Level 3, though with the change on the 5th November she would need to submit her application by then for them to be accepted (going to use the NCS as she needs her passport in a month's time).

Good to know. One less thing to worry about then.

[Tuubaa]

Hi RNA
I'm applying for naturalisation soon and I'm wondering if I have to take one of those Trinity Exams. I've recently done CELTA which is C1 -C3 levels which is higher level than B1's that's recommended by HO. I normally wouldn't mind taking an extra exam but I'm not willing to pay £150.

Can you let me know which address you send the letter to? I might try to write them and use their letter as a proof just in case.