Points based system - English language tests

[jd]

Points based system - English language tests

http://www.workingintheuk.gov.uk/workin ... tests.html

Regards,
JD

[gordon]

Oh boy. Whoever decided that the CEFR was the way to go with this, is going to have the mother of migraines by the end of it. For years, researchers at Cambridge ESOL haven't been able to decide quite how levels like C1 (proposed for tier 1 candidates) precisely compare to IELTS scores; earlier research put that somewhere between 6 and 7, for overall IELTS scores, while later research presented by IELTS put it squarely at 6.5. A sly way of raising the bar, perhaps ? It bears an uncanny (and uncomfortable) resemblance to that nursery game 'Pin the tail on the donkey'; I have this absurd image of Liam Byrne spinning himself round in his office ...
AG

[T_mahmood]

hi

Here is something I found on internet to check the equaliency for IELTS .

http://74.6.146.244/search/cache?ei=UTF ... 1&.intl=uk

[jd]

Hi gordon,

Really I'm not able to understand what you are saying. Can you please explain in simple words how you see this?

Regards,
JD

Oh boy. Whoever decided that the CEFR was the way to go with this, is going to have the mother of migraines by the end of it. For years, researchers at Cambridge ESOL haven't been able to decide quite how levels like C1 (proposed for tier 1 candidates) precisely compare to IELTS scores; earlier research put that somewhere between 6 and 7, for overall IELTS scores, while later research presented by IELTS put it squarely at 6.5. A sly way of raising the bar, perhaps ? It bears an uncanny (and uncomfortable) resemblance to that nursery game 'Pin the tail on the donkey'; I have this absurd image of Liam Byrne spinning himself round in his office ...
AG

[gordon]

The crucial problem is that it is not wholly agreed how IELTS scores correspond to the CEFR levels. So the paper you cited from the government proposes CEFR level C1 for tier 1, and level B2 for tier 2. What does that mean for people who have taken or are to take exams like IELTS ? Do their scores meet the standard being set in the CEFR ?

Earlier research said that C1 on the CEFR scale roughly corresponded to 6-7 on the IELTS scale. Later research by IELTS identified their 6.5 score as equivalent to C1. And mahmood's post (thank you, mahmood!) shows that the British Council think that C1 would be 6.5 or 7 on the IELTS scales.

I think (just my opinion) that there's a certain randomness to choosing these equivalencies (and it was that randomness that I was mocking). But if mahmood's reference, confirming my earlier IELTS citation, is an indicator to be taken seriously, it's not unreasonable to expect that the English-language standard will rise in tier 1, compared to what they've accepted thus far under HSMP, as the IELTS requirement will have risen from 6 to 6.5, in effect.

AG

[pantaiema]

I could imagine if the IETLS requirement for Tier 1 is 8.0. It is very small percentage of very highly skill people. Even the noble price winner will not get through for IELTS test if they do not live in english speaking country or in the country where english is not one of an offcial language. Hope they will realise that it is unfair to people come from certain countries but on the other side offer the unfair advantage to people from other countries.

Want to see IELTS results statistics:
Have a look on this.
http://www.english.gov.hk/eng/download/cepas_mar.ppt
U will see that for the country which English is official language such as Singaporean, Hong Kong etc U will see that the majority is below 7.0.

This is about English requirement for NHS doctors:
We know that English requirement for the doctors should be very high as U need to speak and understand your patient complaint perfectly. They just require 7.0.
http://www.ugc.edu.hk/eng/ugc/publicati ... 30703e.htm
In Top universities in the UK such as Cambridge, Oxford they just need IELTS of 7.0. Have a look on this.
http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/univ/gsprosp ... entry.html

People who have not been working and living in English speaking countries for quite a few years is highly unlikely to get IELTS of 8.0.
-By setting this barrier it is unfair to people who are very talented but quite unfortunate have not been living in English speaking countries.
-How many people come from countries like Japan, Korea who have not been living in the english speaking countries for quite a while will pass. I will say almost nil. Even noble prize of the japanese professor, chinese professor is highly unlikely to pass this level. If they base in Japan/China. Are we going to say that they are less skillful than TIER 1 HSMP (if this were adopted) therefore will not qulify for TIER 1 ?
-Which high skill job require IELTS level of 8.0 ? If U r working in engineering, researchers for instance do U need IELTS of 8.0 ?
-Also in many people who have got IELTS of 8.0. Are they doing a better job than people with IELTL of 7.0 (say) for instance.
- I think it is also unfair to people who come from the countries where English is not an official language. U can not compare people come from countries like India, Jamaica, Nigeria where English is one of official languages with people come from countries like Japan, Korea, south Americas, etc. Suppose these people were in similar environment they would have probably done better and get 8.0 as well.

[gainvidya]

But what HO mentions in the link http://www.workingintheuk.gov.uk/workin ... tests.html

"One way in which migrants can demonstrate that they can meet the required standard of English
will be by providing evidence that they have passed an English language test."

As I understand you can still submit the letter from your university confirming that the education was conducted in English as an alternative.

[gordon]

On those who come from countries where English is not an official language: I'm not sure that these policies are designed to be fair, nor am I convinced that fairness is a suitable formative criterion for this dimension of skilled migration policy. (This is not, however, to say that I am unsympathetic.) There's at least one department at Oxford that requires an IELTS score of 8: Oriental studies. On reflection, I can't remember when last they had a student from the Orient; I'm not sure whether that means that the IELTS requirement is too high.

That said, I once had a brilliant research statistician colleague whose IELTS score was 6 (when we saw this on his CV, we had no idea what it meant - but we found out the hard way). For three years I spent the hour after every meeting translating his Chinglish for my colleagues. It must have been awful for him; I know it was awful for me; my colleagues (who could perhaps understand one word out of three) were tearing out their hair. So policies need to be practical; skilled migrants are great, but if they create a burden on their colleagues to be understood, then that can create problems and in part defeat the purpose. (And so respondents had emphasised, in the 2005 consultation on the PBS.) I don't know what level would be optimal, but my own experience tells me that IELTS 6 is far too low to be useful.

AG

[pantaiema]

Gordon FYI
This is what written in their website:

and a high level of ability in English (i.e. 8 in IELTS is a normal requirement for admission, and individual scores of at least 7.5 must be achieved in reading and 8.0 in writing. The TOEFL test is not normally accepted).

This is common that a university raise its expectation and thus to raise the university profile. That is the reason why it is written normally not a must. We need to see reality in the ground.

FYI I know quite a few friends who study in universities like Oxfords, Cambridge, non of them have got IELTS of 8.0 including subject like political study, law.

The fact that what English requirement from NHS is already evidence than even for doctors who have been working and/or living in the UK for quite a few year is extremely hard to get IELTS of 8.0.

Probably we could start asking if anyone have met someone (highly skilled people) who have not been living in English speaking countries, or whose English is not official language in his country get IELTS of 8.0. TO be honest I have not met one. Have anyone met one of them?

There's at least one department at Oxford that requires an IELTS score of 8: Oriental studies.
AG

[alina76]

Hi ,

I have IELTS band score 8 (overall).

reading: 6
writing: 8
speaking:9
Listening: 8

english is not my first language. Its not that hard to get IELTS band 8.

[pantaiema]

Dear Alina

Thank U for you information abut IELTS.
- Which country did U do your education from elementary to university?
- Would U please explain in which country have U been living in working?
- How long have U been living in English speaking country.

I am quite confusing here. It is very uncommon that people have their individual Band difference in 3.0 points (speaking and reading). Normally, a person ability in reading, writing, speaking and listening is developed in integral way. Have anyone witnessed that someone IELTS individual band different in 3.0 points? I have not seen any. I know that extreme case is not impossible and could exist.

If this happen that someone reading and speaking ability different in 3.0 points, what kind of English test IELTS is?

Hi ,

I have IELTS band score 8 (overall).

reading: 6
writing: 8
speaking:9
Listening: 8

english is not my first language. Its not that hard to get IELTS band 8.

[alina76]

Ielts is not all about english in a way its bit technical. In reading section you have to read different paragraphs and then you have to remember things to answer the questions.

I was always very low in reading section when even trying previous IELTS papers.

And offcourse I dont need to give anyone any evidence that I have band 8, which is definitely is not out of this world. It wasn't that hard at all.
By the way I am from pakistan.

[global gypsy]

On the one hand, they insist on English language scores for skilled applicants from around the world; on the other, they let in people from all over the EU who may not even have a basic knowledge of the language.

So much for a cogent immigration policy.

[avjones]

Different tests - once is a set of obligations under EU law, the rest is national standards.

[jd]

Hi,

I'm from Pakistan. I got overall 6 band in IELTS.

Listening: 6.5
Reading: 7
Writing: 5
Speaking: 5

I know I deserve this much low score in writing but I was shocked when I saw my speaking score.

Thanks,
JD

Dear Alina

Thank U for you information abut IELTS.
- Which country did U do your education from elementary to university?
- Would U please explain in which country have U been living in working?
- How long have U been living in English speaking country.

I am quite confusing here. It is very uncommon that people have their individual Band difference in 3.0 points (speaking and reading). Normally, a person ability in reading, writing, speaking and listening is developed in integral way. Have anyone witnessed that someone IELTS individual band different in 3.0 points? I have not seen any. I know that extreme case is not impossible and could exist.

If this happen that someone reading and speaking ability different in 3.0 points, what kind of English test IELTS is?

Hi ,

I have IELTS band score 8 (overall).

reading: 6
writing: 8
speaking:9
Listening: 8

english is not my first language. Its not that hard to get IELTS band 8.

[sule]

I agree with alina, IELTS has its technical bits to it and also time pressured. I had an overall score of 8.0 not only because english was my first language but mainly due to planning. To raise the standards from band 6 will be certainly be unfair, but nothing is fair!. To be honest the average english person in the UK would score less than band 6, even if english is their first language!.

[Has2003]

Hello

New Points based system - English language test is for old HSMP holders as well who want to apply for Extention I mean 1+3+1 ?


Thanks

[pantaiema]

Alina
Of course you do not need to give anyone evidence. I have mentioned before that Extreme Case might exist.

In your case there are two extreme cases exist:
1. The difference between Reading and speaking (3 points) this is very unusual. Normally the 2 difsference is just 1-1.5 points. 2 points is already questionable.
2. You come form the country where English is not official language. I do not know whether U have been living in English speaking country for a long time.

Ielts is not all about english in a way its bit technical. In reading section you have to read different paragraphs and then you have to remember things to answer the questions.

I was always very low in reading section when even trying previous IELTS papers.

And offcourse I dont need to give anyone any evidence that I have band 8, which is definitely is not out of this world. It wasn't that hard at all.
By the way I am from pakistan.

[pantaiema]

Do you the average IELTS for foreign student who study in the UK? I believe it is just about 6.0. They could finish their study successfully and with comparable result with their British counterparts.

Many universities in the UK require IELTS 6.5-7.0. In reality is that they accept students with 6.0 some universities even accept 5.5.

What happen is that if people do not get enough IELTS score (say 5.5) they are required to come 1-2 months in advance in the UK to take English course. After that they do not need to take IELTS test anymore for definite reason. I could imagine if people with ground bottom of IELTS score 5.5 are required to pass the test with threshold point of 6.5-7.0 by just taking 1-2 month majority of them will fail (if not all). That is the reason after taking course they will not be tested for IELTS again.The British universities will loose revenue from foreign Non EU students which are 3-4 times higher than british students.

If universities in the UK insist IELTS on 7.0 you will not see so many Chinese students at British universities. FYI there are thousands of Chinese students study in the UK, majority of them (if not almost all) do not get IELTS of 7.0. (I know atleast two British business school in the UK take around 500 Chinese students for each intake). But these chinese students succesfully finish their study with comparable result with their British counterparts. Is not this fact have already spoken itselves ?

I don't know what level would be optimal, but my own experience tells me that IELTS 6 is far too low to be useful.

AG

[antony]

The point is that Liam doesnot want to quit his position. if he goes out who will give him luxury job. so the impact.

Oh boy. Whoever decided that the CEFR was the way to go with this, is going to have the mother of migraines by the end of it. For years, researchers at Cambridge ESOL haven't been able to decide quite how levels like C1 (proposed for tier 1 candidates) precisely compare to IELTS scores; earlier research put that somewhere between 6 and 7, for overall IELTS scores, while later research presented by IELTS put it squarely at 6.5. A sly way of raising the bar, perhaps ? It bears an uncanny (and uncomfortable) resemblance to that nursery game 'Pin the tail on the donkey'; I have this absurd image of Liam Byrne spinning himself round in his office ...
AG

[gordon]

You might want to look at a paper that came out a while back about IELTS scores: http://ehlt.flinders.edu.au/education/i ... /paper.pdf : the arguments are no less relevant for their coming from Australia, and offer a compelling counter-argument. In relation to HSMP/tier 1:

(1) The fact that many Chinese students finish university in the UK cannot be taken as full evidence that a low IELTS threshold is sufficient. The research shows that English-language proficiency is but one of a number of meaningful determinants for outcomes at university. That said, however, the research also showed that students with higher IELTS scores performed systematically better than those with lower scores. So if IELTS scores are meant to be used as a partial predictor of performance for those on the job market, then only accepting higher IELTS scores for HSMP/tier 1 is not unreasonable, in the pursuit of high-level performers.

(2) The paper from Australia also noted the adverse impact on revenues that would come about by raising language requirements, as you did. That obviously is something that UK universities (on the revenue side) as well as the HO (on number of tier 1 applicants) must consider. My post discussed higher language requirements in the context of functionality in the workplace, an issue that employers had raised in the consultation, and one that I had experienced personally. That's linked to the Government's problem of raising requirements to improve the calibre of applicants (quality), but separate from the challenge to avoid shutting out otherwise desirable qualified applicants (quantity), a trade-off which I did not discuss.

I don't dispute that the quantity is a serious issue, but I am unconvinced by your implicit argument that the issue of the quantity should override the issue of applicants' quality. To my mind, that was why a compromise was necessary somewhere between IELTS 6 (where it is now, and in my view too low) and IELTS 8 (which was proposed in Feb 2005, and which I agree would probably be too high).

AG

Do you the average IELTS for foreign student who study in the UK? I believe it is just about 6.0. They could finish their study successfully and with comparable result with their British counterparts.

[...]

The British universities will loose revenue from foreign Non EU students which are 3-4 times higher than british students.

If universities in the UK insist IELTS on 7.0 you will not see so many Chinese students at British universities. FYI there are thousands of Chinese students study in the UK, majority of them (if not almost all) do not get IELTS of 7.0. (I know atleast two British business school in the UK take around 500 Chinese students for each intake). But these chinese students succesfully finish their study with comparable result with their British counterparts. Is not this fact have already spoken itselves ?

[hsmp2010]

is this possible that in new system there will be proof for letter from university

[pantaiema]

I believe that IELTS 8.0 is comparable with getting 8.0 in your course work/essay. We know in the UK education system getting >= 7.0 is already distinction/commendation. We also know that there is a literacy problem in British education system. There is no doubt that success at the university will also to some extents depends on language skill. However, there is no evidence have shown that people who have IELTS of 8.0 will perform better at the university/at work with people who got IELTS of 7.0 (say).

-How many British people get 8.0 in their essays/course works? Less than 5 % I believe. Also there is no evidence at that majority of British people (or all) , or people whose first language is English themselves who have been working in highly skill job will achieve IELTS of 8.0. Could anyone show this evidence please??

- FYI, U might be happy that U get IELTS 8.0 today but if u r tested in 3 months with different set of IELTS test package with different examiners U might only get 7.0 or 7.5. Do not believe that try it ....People who have tried could easily testify this. To increase from 6.0 to 7.0 is very much easier than to increase from 7.0 to 8.0. To reach this level consistantly. I believe, U need to live and work for over ten years in English speaking countries and spend most of your time practicing the IELTS tricks.

- There is no evidence that majority of people who have been working in Tier 1 such as NHS doctor (according to Tier 1 classification) have achieved IELTS of 8.0. So why HO need this level ?. Have a look on this, NHS doctors is just required to have IELTS of 7.0.
http://careerfocus.bmj.com/cgi/reprint/328/7455/280.pdf

- it is very unfair to talented people with tier 1 potential who do not have opportunities to live in English speaking countries or in the countries where English is one of official languages. This also offers unfair advantage to people who grow up/live in the countries where English is one of official languages such as India, Nigeria, Ghana, Jamaica, etc. or In extreme case, people from Australia, Canada, US, New Zealand. I know some people from the countries where english is one offical languages. They are lecturers at universties in their countries with english as medium of instruction in the classroom. They all have taken IELTS to meet the conditon to study at PG lavel at British universities, none of them have got IELTS of 8.0.

I am not speaking for myselves as all of this is already irrelevant to me. This is just a matter of thought what magic number IELTS of 8.0 means and how unfair the system is if this is to be implemented.

You might want to look at a paper that came out a while back about IELTS scores: http://ehlt.flinders.edu.au/education/i ... /paper.pdf : the arguments are no less relevant for their coming from Australia, and offer a compelling counter-argument. In relation to HSMP/tier 1:

(1) The fact that many Chinese students finish university in the UK cannot be taken as full evidence that a low IELTS threshold is sufficient. The research shows that English-language proficiency is but one of a number of meaningful determinants for outcomes at university. That said, however, the research also showed that students with higher IELTS scores performed systematically better than those with lower scores. So if IELTS scores are meant to be used as a partial predictor of performance for those on the job market, then only accepting higher IELTS scores for HSMP/tier 1 is not unreasonable, in the pursuit of high-level performers.

(2) The paper from Australia also noted the adverse impact on revenues that would come about by raising language requirements, as you did. That obviously is something that UK universities (on the revenue side) as well as the HO (on number of tier 1 applicants) must consider. My post discussed higher language requirements in the context of functionality in the workplace, an issue that employers had raised in the consultation, and one that I had experienced personally. That's linked to the Government's problem of raising requirements to improve the calibre of applicants (quality), but separate from the challenge to avoid shutting out otherwise desirable qualified applicants (quantity), a trade-off which I did not discuss.

I don't dispute that the quantity is a serious issue, but I am unconvinced by your implicit argument that the issue of the quantity should override the issue of applicants' quality. To my mind, that was why a compromise was necessary somewhere between IELTS 6 (where it is now, and in my view too low) and IELTS 8 (which was proposed in Feb 2005, and which I agree would probably be too high).

AG

Do you the average IELTS for foreign student who study in the UK? I believe it is just about 6.0. They could finish their study successfully and with comparable result with their British counterparts.

[...]

The British universities will loose revenue from foreign Non EU students which are 3-4 times higher than british students.

If universities in the UK insist IELTS on 7.0 you will not see so many Chinese students at British universities. FYI there are thousands of Chinese students study in the UK, majority of them (if not almost all) do not get IELTS of 7.0. (I know atleast two British business school in the UK take around 500 Chinese students for each intake). But these chinese students succesfully finish their study with comparable result with their British counterparts. Is not this fact have already spoken itselves ?

[pantaiema]

FYI if the IELTS requirement for the new tier 1system is 8.0. It is highly unlikely (I will say no chance at all) that they will accept letter from university for two main reasons:
- The level of English fluency for 3 year undergraduate study is still far below the IELTS level of 8.0. Evidence there are quite many Chinese students who did BSc, MEng degree (take 4 years) if they are tested for IELTS after finishing their degree I seriously doubt it that they will pass IELTS of 8.0. (But we know that many of them perfom well in their study)
- To be recognised, the university need to register to the HO/BIA to access that they have met requirement. I could imagine, the university will not be bothered to do this.

is this possible that in new system there will be proof for letter from university

[avjones]

I don't know what you mean by getting 8.0 in an essay - as far as I'm aware, British universities tend to give either percentages, or grades (1st, 2:i, etc)