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You have a fair understanding of what is required.nordize wrote:...
- My country joined the EU in Jan 2007.
- I have been living in the UK as an EU national for the past 8 years and 8 months.
- The first 4 years of that period I was a PhD student.
- The last 4 years and 8 months of that period I have been working - employed.
- Hence, I was still a PhD student for 1 year and 4 months during my last 6 years in the UK.
What I understand (correct me if I'm wrong): FAQ-Q5 and booklet state that Permanent Residence (PR) status is automatically obtained after 5 years of residence as an EU national, and then 1 year of PR is needed before applying. FAQ Q5 says one needs to provide proof that during those 5 years (the first 5 out of 6) they were exercising EU treaty rights. The AN form at section 2.4 asks for details for all 6 years. In my case, the last 6 years include 1 year and 4 months during which I was still a PhD student. The booklet says that for students one needs to provide proof of comprehensive medical insurance, though I'm no longer a student and I won't be applying as a student.
My questions:
- Would letters from my university (stating I was a registered PhD student until Jan 2011) and employers (stating I have been an employee since Jan 2011) suffice as proof of exercising EU treaty rights and hence gain automatic PR in the UK?
No
- Do I still need to show proof of comprehensive medical insurance for the duration I was a PhD student?
Yes if claiming for a period during which you were a student.
Alternately, did you hold an EHIC card from your country
Or does your country have any sort of reciprocal healthcare arrangement with UK
For e.g. Polish students can apparently use a form of Polish healthcare system cover via their parent/s.
- Is there anything else I need to provide as proof of exercising EU treaty rights for the past 5+1 years?
Yes- re-read the guidance
- Section 1.3 asks for the date I obtained indefinite leave to remain and points to the booklet. I guess this can be left empty? Or shall I enter 01/01/2012 which corresponds to 5 years after my country joined the EU?
ILR (non-EEA route) is different from PR.
Any other tips welcome! Many thanks in advance.
Noted - so no time possible as a jobseeker (which would help avoid need for proof of CSI).nordize wrote:Thanks for the reply. As I said, I did read the guide, booklet, form, and the FAQ here and as far as I can see, in my case I would need:
- letters from employer confirming employment for the past 4y 8m (or P60 certificates)
- letter from university confirming I was a student for the duration and, as per your reply, also comprehensive medical insurance for the 1y 4m beforehand
You seem to suggest the above are not sufficient. Care to elaborate? I'm only interested in proving the exercising of EU treaty rights for 5+1 years (I'm excluding the other requirements such as ID, Life in the UK certificate, language certificate etc)
I wasn't a job seeker prior to employment (I got employed immediately after finishing my PhD, which was full time).
ok, well that helps.nordize wrote:No, I'm not from an A8 country. Also, see my reply above.
Recent legal challenges (reported in media &/or in these forum) have been rebuffed & come to nothing in the higher UK courts (apparently) so currently the CSI requirement still stands.nordize wrote:Thanks for the replies. I take it that CSI means Comprehensive Student Insurance? (the medical one)
From what you're saying, I don't see many options for me other than wait 1y and 4m before applying. I don't think I had CSI as a student, unless paying a college fee at Cambridge (this is different than the tuition fee) automatically entitled me to some medical insurance. I will ask.
I heard of cases where solicitors succeeded in pushing NHS insurance as acceptable student medical insurance for the citizenship application.
Here is a case almost identical to mine - see the 2nd post: http://www.immigrationboards.com/britis ... 92224.html
Another case study here - again case dismissed:The Appellant applied for confirmation of permanent residence as the spouse of an EEA national exercising her treaty right but his application was refused because his wife had not obtained sickness insurance.
The Appellant argued that as his wife was entitled to use the NHS she did not need private insurance cover to do so. The Upper Tribunal rejected this argument and the Appellant appealed.
The CA dismissed the appeal. It ruled that an EEA national, when exercising a Treaty right as a student, would only have lawful residence if they had comprehensive sickness insurance. This could not include the public healthcare system of the host state because that would defeat the object of the Directive, namely relieving the state of the cost of providing healthcare in the first five years of the EEA national's presence in that state.
I think it's also called Comprehensive Sickness Insurance.nordize wrote:CSI = Comprehensive Health Insurance? ... shouldn't that read CHI?
Cambridge colleges are not your typical "UK college". They are independent institutions, not part of the University of Cambridge. You become a member of both the university and a college, and you pay a separate (and hefty) fee to the college, on top of the university fee which goes to the university. The college provides accommodation, meals, 1-to-1 teaching, among other things. I'll ask them regardless.
I don't recall having an EHIC while studying.
I'm not sure what "reciprocal arrangement" means. Do you mean between UK and my country in terms of medical insurance? I left my country in 2001 so I'm pretty certain I have no medical insurance there any more anyway ... so I guess any reciprocal agreement would be worthless.
I'll ask my mom about her medical insurance. She lives in my old country. Chances are slim that she has me on her insurance given I left in 2001.
I'll ask about all these points. My biggest hope is from my Cambridge college, and those chance are low to begin with ... sounds like I'll have to wait 1y and 4m.
This comprehensive medical insurance condition is almost insulting. I could have been illegally staying in the UK and they would still approve my citizenship just fine as long as I work for the last 5 years, but they won't approve it if I had been studying for a single month of the last 5 years without comprehensive private insurance. Some folks are making a lot of money off of this little condition.
Many thanks for all the replies.
I think it dates from 2014nordize wrote:The Ahmed case is from 1995 ... wow. Still, this post here which is from Aug 2015 says their solicitors successfully argued that the NHS should be counted as her comprehensive. I'm back on the fence.
As I was saying previously, I don't think I had an EHIC during my studies but my Cambridge college may have had an incurance component for the hefty fee I was paying it (see my post above).LilyLalilu wrote:Did you have a non-UK EHIC whilst you were a student? If so, you may be able to use this as a replacement for CSI. For this to count, you should submit a self-declaration with your application stating that during your studies, you were only planning on staying temporarily, and then changed your mind once you were in employment. This is needed as EHIC can only be used to replace CSI for temporary stays.
Probably best to apply for PR first - mainly because you'd have the right to appeal if refused. Or else wait until you have accumulated 5 years of treaty rights as a worker.
Or were you issued a Blue Registration Certificate as a student before 20 06 2011? I believe then you may have been exempt from the CSI requirement as well...
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... Policy.pdf (Section 6.9&6.10)
Aha, the game's afoot.nordize wrote:As I was saying previously, I don't think I had an EHIC during my studies but my Cambridge college may have had an insurance component for the hefty fee I was paying it (see my post above).
I do have a blue registration certificate issued on 16 Aug 2011 ... However, I had been issued a yellow registration certificate before that, while I was still a student, though almost at the end of my course, somewhere late 2010 or Jan 2011, so it would not cover the 1 year and 4 month duration.
The PDF you linked to says: "EEA nationals who were issued with a registration certification before 20 June 2011 on the basis that they were a student would not have been required to submit evidence that they held CSI, and therefore must not be required to provide evidence of CSI for any period spent as a student after their certificate was issued."
It looks like my yellow certificate would exempt me from proving CSI only for the period after it was issued. It would still leave about 1 year which requires proof of CSI.
However, the UKBA asked for the yellow certificate back when they issued me the blue one, so I no longer have it, but I have a photocopy of it.
Thoughts?
Well, the paragraph says: "[...] must not be required to provide evidence of CSI for any period spent as a student after their certificate was issued."noajthan wrote:Aha, the game's afoot.
I think the point may be CSI was not asked for before some date in 2011. So it may not matter you didn't have it before then.
And this card guarantees some sort of transitional arrangement that appears to carry on after 2011.
I don't know this by direct experience so you will need to dig into this to be sure.
Why not call the HO helpline and ask them, or better still do it in writing (more reliable).
nordize wrote:Well, the paragraph says: "[...] must not be required to provide evidence of CSI for any period spent as a student after their certificate was issued."
My yellow certificate was issued Dec 2010. I stopped being a student in Jan 2011 so it would only cover about 1 month of equivalent CSI.
However, at this point it is worth calling the HO helpline. As you say, maybe the CSI was not required before Jun 2011 (though the Ahmed legal case is from 1995, and the wording of the paragraph also seems like it was a requirement) or maybe meeting the conditions for a yellow certificate automatically back then implied something for some years priorly that could override the CSI ... sounds like wishful thinking, but doesn't hurt to call them.
Is it this I need to contact: https://www.gov.uk/contact-ukvi/british ... ationality ?