Returning to UK - questions/advice

[noajthan]

You are missing an option here & that is the Surinder Singh route.

Use your ideas of setting up some business or other plus your seed capital but spend say 6 months or so of your time by coming back to UK via an EU country first.
Say Germany or Ireland; it just depends on your linguistic abilities & any other personal considerations or family connections (etc).

Plant yourself in chosen EU country, establish your centre of life there (you seem flexible & no firm ties to UK yet) - this is classic Surinder Singh.

On finally returning to UK you will be treated as an EEA national & your wife treated under EU rules as a dependent family member of someone exercising treaty rights in UK.
(Assuming you as 'EEA national' & her sponsor set up in business or get a job in UK or fall into one of the other categories of qualified person).

Then all this £18,600 income nonsense (from the UK Immigration Regulations) goes away.
After 5 years with you in UK your wife would likely have acquired PR (ie settled status) & so a further step on the way to the privilege of citizenship.

I must say the idea of netting £18K in first year seems fanciful; I know people who have these carboot/eBay type of dealing businesses and they don't even turnover or gross £18K (even after a couple of years at it).
(And anyway, even if one did can anyone realistically support a family of 4/5 persons on £18K in south of England - I'll leave that one 'for the pub').

Plenty of information in this forum (& elsewhere) about Surinder Singh; (you could try asking CAB too).

This should whet your appetite & get you started:
eea-route-applications/eea2-surinder-si ... 0singh%203

Good luck.

[Wanderer]

You are missing an option here & that is the Surinder Singh route.

Use your ideas of setting up some business or other plus your seed capital but spend say 6 months or so of your time by coming back to UK via an EU country first.
Say Germany or Ireland; it just depends on your linguistic abilities & any other personal considerations or family connections (etc).

Plant yourself in chosen EU country, establish your centre of life there (you seem flexible & no firm ties to UK yet) - this is classic Surinder Singh.

On finally returning to UK you will be treated as an EEA national & your wife treated under EU rules as a dependent family member of someone exercising treaty rights in UK.
(Assuming you as 'EEA national' & her sponsor set up in business or get a job in UK or fall into one of the other categories of qualified person).

Then all this £18,600 income nonsense (from the UK Immigration Regulations) goes away.
After 5 years with you in UK your wife would likely have acquired PR (ie settled status) & so a further step on the way to the privilege of citizenship.

I must say the idea of netting £18K in first year seems fanciful; I know people who have these carboot/eBay type of dealing businesses and they don't even turnover or gross £18K (even after a couple of years at it).
(And anyway, even if one did can anyone realistically support a family of 4/5 persons on £18K in south of England - I'll leave that one 'for the pub').

Plenty of information in this forum (& elsewhere) about Surinder Singh; (you could try asking CAB too).

This should whet your appetite & get you started:
eea-route-applications/eea2-surinder-si ... 0singh%203

Good luck.

Except if the UKVI see that as an attempt to circumvent UK immigration rules (which it is, let's be honest here) then they will deny it.

[noajthan]

Except if the UKVI see that as an attempt to circumvent UK immigration rules (which it is, let's be honest here) then they will deny it.

I beg to differ, the OP has not lived in UK for years (by sound of it) so he is hardly nipping out of UK for 3 months then returning to Blighty.
He is clearly a global citizen & the epitomy of free movement spirit.

Anyway haven't there been judgements (Akrich et al) to say motive is not a factor...

Regarding abuse, the judgment states that:

“the scope of Union law cannot be extended to cover abuses… Proof of such an abuse requires, first, a combination of objective circumstances in which, despite formal observance of the conditions laid down by the European Union rules, the purpose of those rules has not been achieved, and, secondly, a subjective element consisting in the intention to obtain an advantage from the European Union rules by artificially creating the conditions laid down for obtaining it.”

...

EU law states that the intention behind exercise of Treaty rights is irrelevant (see Akrich Case C-109/01) and abuse requires the accuser to prove both that the rules for a right are not really met and that there was a deliberate intention artificially to make it appear as if the rules were satisfied (Emsland‑Stärke Case C‑110/99).

The onus seems clearly on HMG to prove any abuse.
Someone transferring to EU from Asia seems to me to be very little abuse of free movement; they could very clearly demonstrate setting up their 'centre of life' in the target country.

Ref: https://www.freemovement.org.uk/surinde ... tion-route

So what's he got to lose?
He's planning to rent in UK & start some business from scratch in UK with no apparent strong ties here.
Why not do the same in Ireland or Germany or <EU country of choice> first?

I'd say the longer-term benefit of freedom from UK immigration regs (& deftly switching to EU rules) far outweighs the discomfort of living in some rented place in a 'foreign' land.
To his family the UK will be just as alien & unsettling, with as much of a culture shock anyway (at least to begin with).

[pentatonic]

Except if the UKVI see that as an attempt to circumvent UK immigration rules (which it is, let's be honest here) then they will deny it.

Curious point...

I thought the EEA regulation only requires one to establish a centre of life in another EEA country. As far as I can tell the regulation does not prohibit any specific purpose of that establishment, as long as there is a genuine tie to that country for a reasonable period prior to moving back to the UK?

Hypothetically, if say a British person moves to Germany with an express purpose of invoking Surinder Singh in due course, but in doing so sells her home in the UK (or in this case, not owning a home in the UK in the first place?), move all belongings and take up a permanent vacancy in Germany for 6-12 months, can UKVI really refuse the right of free movement of the spouse back to the UK on the grounds of attempt to circumvent UK immigration rules?

Attempt to circumvent UK immigration rules only results in an adverse history as far as UK rules are concerned. But this does not fall within UK rules...

[noajthan]

Except if the UKVI see that as an attempt to circumvent UK immigration rules (which it is, let's be honest here) then they will deny it.

Curious point...

I thought the EEA regulation only requires one to establish a centre of life in another EEA country. As far as I can tell the regulation does not prohibit any specific purpose of that establishment, as long as there is a genuine tie to that country for a reasonable period prior to moving back to the UK?

In other words, if say a British person moves to Germany for the express purpose of invoking Surinder Singh, but in doing so sells her home in the UK (or in this case, not owning a home in the UK in the first place?), move all belongings and take up a permanent vacancy in Germany for 6-12 months, can UKVI really refuse the right of free movement of the spouse back to the UK on the grounds of attempt to circumvent UK immigration rules?

Attempt to circumvent UK immigration rules only results in an adverse history as far as UK rules are concerned. But this does not fall within UK rules...

+1

if HMG insists on imposing their centre of life test (which is not part of EU law but a UK wrapper on top) then officials can hardly refuse a case when the rules are fulfilled.

More thoughts on Surinder Singh & abuse here.
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/abuse-o ... der-singh/

[noajthan]

If it can be shown that the exercise of treaty rights did achieve the purpose of the free movement rules and was effective and genuine then the question of intention is irrelevant.

https://www.freemovement.org.uk/abuse-o ... nder-singh

[returntotheuk]

Thanks for the input guys, much appreciated.

Very interesting. One of the reasons for moving to the UK is to be nearer my elderly Mum but also for our kids to learn more about Western culture, I would hate them to miss out on the opportunity and feel guilty about it later. So, Ireland could be a possibility for us as somewhere to live as only a short flight to UK.

I have not lived in the UK since 2003, my wife is Cambodian and we have lived in Cambodia since early 2004. We have 3 kids which all have British citizenship. We also have businesses in Cambodia, and we are looking at trying to carry on those businesses now rather than establish a new business in the UK. Our current businesses easily meet the threshold of 18,600. So, we were wondering if these businesses could be set up legally in UK so we pay taxes on them in the UK. It seems it maybe possible with a LTD company but not so much as a sole trader.

But now, I have something new to consider which going via the EU route. This could be possible, as we are quite flexible, our kids with school would be the main issue but I am sure not a major one with a bit research.

So, to clarify, how long can a NON EU person (as a spouse) stay in somewhere like Ireland? I thought it would be very similar rules or am I missing something?

[returntotheuk]

Found this link which seems to be helpful too for Ireland.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/mo ... mbers.html

[returntotheuk]

I noticed they also have the Surinder Singh route on the gov.uk website. But it seems it can be done without the family permit?

https://www.gov.uk/family-permit/surinder-singh

[noajthan]

So, to clarify, how long can a NON EU person (as a spouse) stay in somewhere like Ireland? I thought it would be very similar rules or am I missing something?

Details on the temporary visas all detailed in the itemised steps here:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... 0singh%203

The point is you are considered as an EEA national in Ireland (as long as you exercise treaty rights, eg work) so your wife is the dependent family member of an EEA national & falls under EU rules not local immigration laws.

[returntotheuk]

So, to clarify, how long can a NON EU person (as a spouse) stay in somewhere like Ireland? I thought it would be very similar rules or am I missing something?

Details on the temporary visas all detailed in the itemised steps here:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... 0singh%203

The point is you are considered as an EEA national in Ireland (as long as you exercise treaty rights, eg work) so your wife is the dependent family member of an EEA national & falls under EU rules not local immigration laws.

Thanks, this sounds like a really good option from what I have been reading so far.

Am I right in saying that many of the criterias of meeting financial thresholds are not valid at all on the SS route? Meaning we do not need to prove earnings at any stage? And, also the other criteria of having a job when entering the UK from the EU.

It seems so much easier than the UK immigration rules route.

[vinny]

Yes. It's worth considering.

There's also apparently no requirement to have a job in the UK when entering from the EU under the Surinder Singh route.

[returntotheuk]

Yes. It's worth considering.

There's also apparently no requirement to have a job in the UK when entering from the EU under the Surinder Singh route.

Thanks Vinny, it certainly looks a good option for us.

I did find this link though that may affect people from been able to get the permanent residency down the line.

http://thepienews.com/news/uk-to-tighte ... s-in-2016/

[vinny]

The article concerns Tier 2 holders.

[returntotheuk]

The article concerns Tier 2 holders.

Thanks again Vinny, definitely looks like the Surinder Singh route is our best option so our family is not separated for a long period.

[noajthan]

The article concerns Tier 2 holders.

Thanks again Vinny, definitely looks like the Surinder Singh route is our best option so our family is not separated for a long period.

I suggest you're ideal candidate for SS as you quite literally have no UK "baggage".

Here's another on SS route, may be worth watching progress of this 'point' man:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/irelan ... 94293.html

[returntotheuk]

The article concerns Tier 2 holders.

Thanks again Vinny, definitely looks like the Surinder Singh route is our best option so our family is not separated for a long period.

I suggest you're ideal candidate for SS as you quite literally have no UK "baggage".

Here's another on SS route, may be worth watching progress of this 'point' man:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/irelan ... 94293.html

Thanks noajthan, I think have put me on the right track, very much appreciated. I will follow the link with interest.

From the sounds of it, would I be wrong in thinking it would be a bad idea to go to the UK for a holiday to visit my mum first (around 3wks) on a family visit visa then continue on to Ireland for 4-5 mths? My thinking is the 6mth family visit visa would probably still valid so we could re-enter UK before visa is up? Or is that not the case?