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[pantaiema]

Do U think the skilled migrant in the UK is not designed to attract people from developing countries ?. What is your opinion …

gordon
Senior Member
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 403
Location: oxford
Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:39 pm Post subject:

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Well, that may be closer to the truth than the Government would wish to admit. Quite apart from the English requirement, it's worth noting that, of all the business schools in the MBA provision, only one is in a developing country, and that is neither in India nor in Pakistan. I think one can take the MBA provision as a less-than-subtle indication of the sort of people they might seek to attract.

(And as an aside, literacy tests were used for voting in the US from the late 19th c into the 1960s, not just in the 30s. Literacy tests were also used for immigration into the US in the early 20th c as well.)

But on your earlier point, if one were simply to leave it to the labour market entirely, that seems to suggest that there's little point in having a skilled migration scheme (a government-arranged vetting scheme, as it were), because the employment viability of would-be migrants would be determined at the local level.

VictoriaS wrote:
As for level 8, well, this seems to me to be a rather transparant way to discourage all but native English speakers to apply. It is a way of saying "we want all the Yanks, Aussies, Kiwi, Canuks, but we didn't expect the HSMP to bring in all these Indians and Pakistanis, so lets put in a language test so harsh that all but a small few will pass". Kinda like literacy tests for voting in the US back in the 30's.

[pantaiema]

See the following FT global rankings 2007 of MBA school
Ceibs (ranking 11 of world top[ universities) is located in CHina
(http://rankings.ft.com/global-mba-rankings)


500 Top universities ranking: (http://www.arwu.org/)
Tsinghua Univ Asia/Pac China
Nanjing Univ Asia/Pac China
Peking Univ Asia/Pac China
Shanghai Jiao Tong Univ China
Zhejiang Univ China
Fudan Univ China
Indian Inst Sci India
Indian Inst Tech – Kharagpur
Jilin Univ China
Lanzhou Univ China
Nankai Univ China
Shandong Univ China
Tianjin Univ China
Zhongshan Univ China

Although they are not in the MBA provision but kee in mind these universities is better than majority universities in the UK and US.

Gordon wrote
Well, that may be closer to the truth than the Government would wish to admit. Quite apart from the English requirement, it's worth noting that, of all the business schools in the MBA provision, only one is in a developing country, and that is neither in India nor in Pakistan. I think one can take the MBA provision as a less-than-subtle indication of the sort of people they might seek to attract.

[prem12]

As of now they do intend to attaract migrants from accros the globe, as can be seen from the salary criterion which they have adjusted according the respective country's averge earning.

If the IELTS score is raised to 8, it will defenitely cause problem to migrants from India or Pakistan but it may be more difficult for migrants from other countries like Australia, NewZeaLand, as it has been almost uninamously agreed that 8 is a difficult score even for natives from english speaking countries.

In fact, given the hard working nature of Indians, they may still score 8, but the others will be left behind.
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[pantaiema]

Well I also fully believe some Indians might still score 8.0. But do U think that the majority of highly skilled Indians working could pass?

In my other post I have shown a link to show that the requirement to become an NHS doctor is IELTS 7.0. There is also statistic that have been shown that majority of foreign NHS doctors in the UK did not get IELTS 8.0. We know that quite reasonable numbers of Indians doctor are working as NHS doctors.

Also majority of NHS nurses have not achieved IELTS of 8.0. We know that quite reasonable numbers of Indians nurses are working in the UK.

As of now they do bring in migrants from accross globe, as can be seen from the salary criterion which they have adjusted according the respective country's averge earning.

But if the IELTS score is raised to 8, It will cause problem to migrants from India or Pakistan but it will be more difficult for migrants from other countries, as it has been almost agreed uninamously that 8 is a difficult score for natives from english speaking countries.

In fact, given the hard working nature of Indians, they may still score 8, but the others will be left behind.

[gordon]

But the implied question is not, which b-schools are best. No-one is disputing that there are good universities in developing countries. The real question is, is there an inherent bias exhibited by the selection of those b-schools covered by the MBA provision ? The MBA provision is effectively a free pass, and the profile of that list of schools suggests a distinct preference in the formulation of the Government's policy. If they wanted particularly to attract developing-country MBA graduates, then compiling that list as they did was a very odd way of going about it.

In many ways, this is a reference to Kapur and McHale's research at CGD a few years ago, which on a secondary level gave rise to a heated debate on the growing competition between developed countries for each other's skilled labour - not just those from abroad, but those home-grown as well.

[prem12]

Even if all the MBA aspirants from all the universities were to be coming to UK, what fraction of the total would they form. The choice of MBA students from english speaking countries could be the cultural similarity that they share and which is required for good business.
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[gordon]

Even if all the MBA aspirants from all the universities were to be coming to UK, what fraction of the total would they form. The choice of MBA students from english speaking countries could be the cultural similarity that they share and which is required for good business.

Exactly. However, I would point out that the number of such MBAs is irrelevant, as that's objective rather than normative. Beyond actually attracting those MBA grads, the point of the MBA provision, one might argue, is to demonstrate the profile and calibre and, as you put it, 'cultural similarity' of those that the Government seeks to attract, and to whom it is thus willing to offer preferential and concessionary visa arrangements to that end.

Unfortunately, more than half of the b-schools on that list are in the US, where their graduates have ample and attractive opportunities in-country as it is, so it was never going to be the case that there would be a mass exodus to the UK on the MBA provision from those b-schools.

[pantaiema]

In the proposal for the new Tier 1 system there is no provision for MBAs like those which is currently in force in the current HSMP system.

Even if all the MBA aspirants from all the universities were to be coming to UK, what fraction of the total would they form. The choice of MBA students from english speaking countries could be the cultural similarity that they share and which is required for good business.

Exactly. However, I would point out that the number of such MBAs is irrelevant, as that's objective rather than normative. Beyond actually attracting those MBA grads, the point of the MBA provision, one might argue, is to demonstrate the profile and calibre and, as you put it, 'cultural similarity' of those that the Government seeks to attract, and to whom it is thus willing to offer preferential and concessionary visa arrangements to that end.

Unfortunately, more than half of the b-schools on that list are in the US, where their graduates have ample and attractive opportunities in-country as it is, so it was never going to be the case that there would be a mass exodus to the UK on the MBA provision from those b-schools.

[gordon]

In the proposal for the new Tier 1 system there is no provision for MBAs like those which is currently in force in the current HSMP system.

The March 2006 command paper (A points-based system: making migration work for Britain) indicated in para 87 (p24) that Tier 1: Post Study would 'also include an amended version of the current MBA provision'.

What evidence would you offer to substantiate your claim to the contrary, that no provision would be made ? Have subsequent papers explicitly indicated the exclusion of the MBA provision, in a departure from the earlier position ?

[UKbound]

The current MBA provision is meant to provide a waiver for those coming from the top 50 ranked universities for MBA.

Ceibs, for example, is on there even though it's in China. It is the 11th according to the info that pantaiema provided, and so it made the list..

It's probably because they are confident that those graduating from the top 50 (even those from China) won't have a problem making the minimum income because the universities are so highly rated.

The rest of the universities not in the top 50 (regardless of where they're from), get the standard points, which means that you have to demonstrate that your income is sufficient..

You could argue that those with an MBA will end up getting the minimum income levels on average, and you could waive them all. I think they're trying to balance that, though.

[purplepple]

Is the 8.0 IELTS score requirement definite? Or just hearsay?

[gordon]

IELTS 8 was floated in the 2005 strategy paper for Tier 1 : http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/6353/a ... rategy.pdf

However, I am not sure that that particular IELTS level has been publicly discussed since (cf the March 2006 paper, A points-based system: making migration work for Britain); a more recent statement earlier this month indicated that the Tier 1 minimum language requirement would be set at CEFR level C1, which appears to be equivalent to IELTS 6.5 or 7 : http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/6353/1 ... lusion.pdf

So yes, at this point, IELTS 8.0 is hearsay, so any discussion of it would seem to be merely speculative, alarmist, or academic (your interpretive choice).

[apply4hsmp]

Well there is one thing to note IELTS is not mandatory for people who can show they studied english medium school at graduation.

Because the paper says and to quote "One of the ways to fulfill english requirement is getting IELTS at band 8"
Isnt that true ?

If it is, why so much hue and cry ?

[goldfish]

As of now they do intend to attaract migrants from accros the globe, as can be seen from the salary criterion which they have adjusted according the respective country's averge earning.

If this is true, why is Australia in the same band as the UK? Australia's currency is much weaker than the UK's (despite recent adjustments!) and I can say from experience that a £40k job in the UK is *much* easier to get than a $100,000 job in Australia. Most Australians I know can't get HSMP on their Australian earnings and can only get HSMP after contracting in the UK on a Working Holiday visa. I'm not complaining that we have it tough, but I don't think the salary bands can be used to justify an argument that they favour Australians.

[pantaiema]

This is what is written in working in the UK official website:

http://www.workingintheuk.gov.uk/workin ... tests.html

Organisations wishing for details of their English language tests to be published in this release of guidance should provide details of the test by 30th November 2007


While in the theory it is still possible to get letter from university but in reality it is highly unlike it is going to happen for the following reasons:

- To be recognised, the university need to provide details of their test method, curriculum (probably) by 30th November 2007 to be assessed I could imagine, the universities will not be bothered to do this.

-The level of English proficiency for 3 year undergraduate study or 4 year master’s degree is still far below the IELTS level of 8.0. FACT: there are quite many Chinese students who did BSc, MEng degree (take 4 years) in english speaking countries. if they are tested for IELTS after finishing their degree I seriously doubt it that they will pass IELTS of 8.0.

I could testify that I have seen many Chinese students who have finished their Bachelors degree in English speaking countries in subject which need highly numerical skills rather than literacy skills. The subjects include IT, engineering, science, finance/accounting. If they want to enrol to Master’s degrees for further study they sometimes take IELTS test, I have not heard any of them have got 8.0. What I have seen the majority get less than 7.0.

Let just hope that IELTS requirement for 8.0 which is currently just aspirational and it will not happen.

From What I have observed in this forum, it seems that there are still a lot of people did not understand or aware how IETLS 8.0 means. This is because many of the current HSMP people is just using the letter from universities without any knowledge how IELTS 8.0 looks like.

Event if U r a highly skilled from the countries where English is official language (even native speaker, I will say) there is no guarantee that U will get 8.0 do not believe that, try it.This is especially true if U do not need excellent communication in your profesion such as Solicitors/Barristers, teachers, Politicians, Reporters, etc do need.
U might not be allowed to take IELTS test if U r native speaker because IELTS test centre will not allow the native speaker to test their english but if U do not let them know that U r native speaker, U might still do this.

I know in this forum someone have claimed that in his observation people who finished BSc in the English speaking countries could discern that his students who finished have English profiency equivalent will get IELTS 8.0. Probably true but this occasion is very very very few.

Also Because I seriously doubt that many people understand what IELTS 8.0 means. Probably what he has seen is just equivalent to 7.0 or 7.5 is the highest.

Well there is one thing to note IELTS is not mandatory for people who can show they studied english medium school at graduation.

If it is, why so much hue and cry ?

[gordon]

But that document only refers to English language tests, characterised as 'one way in which applicants can demonstrate' that 'they have an acceptable level of English.' There is nothing that suggests that such a test will be the only way in which one may satisfy the requirement.

But by your logic, even if one were to accept your hypothesis that native speakers finishing university careers conducted in English demonstrate only 7.0 or 7.5 on the IELTS scale, it would actually seem quite reasonable then to expect that the same sort of English-language documentation that universities have hitherto supplied, would suffice for the English-language requirement in Tier 1 of the PBS, given the equivalency of CEFR C1 to IELTS 6.5 or 7.0.

And for the record, I had indicated that I found it difficult to believe that native English speakers could leave university with an IELTS less than 8.0 -- I was not referring to foreign students. I would, however, reiterate my earlier caveat that this observation was based on US and UK university education; I would have no basis on which to generalise this statement to apply to universities elsewhere where English is the medium of instruction. So your estimates may well be true elsewhere; I would merely disagree with extending your hypothesis to include the US and UK, based on my own experience.

[purplepple]

I've been reading from some posts in this forum about extending the ILR residency requirement to 7 years. Is this just another rumor? Has anyone read something about this from official websites?

[Greg]

As of now they do intend to attaract migrants from accros the globe, as can be seen from the salary criterion which they have adjusted according the respective country's averge earning.

If this is true, why is Australia in the same band as the UK? Australia's currency is much weaker than the UK's (despite recent adjustments!) and I can say from experience that a £40k job in the UK is *much* easier to get than a $100,000 job in Australia. Most Australians I know can't get HSMP on their Australian earnings and can only get HSMP after contracting in the UK on a Working Holiday visa. I'm not complaining that we have it tough, but I don't think the salary bands can be used to justify an argument that they favour Australians.

Even more bizarre is that New Zealand is in such a weak band, when their earnings are broadly the same as Australians. A under 28 bachelor degree holder needs NZ$30k to qualify. The same Australian needs AUS$62k. The New Zealander needs 10k less than the average wage in their country, the Australian needs 7k more.

Very strange.