New citizenship form UKF

[jon365]

You've just given me another lecture right there. My point is also that we are all in the same boat, whether applying in Britain or from abroad. We're all sitting here wondering what's going on and waiting. My original post was one that showed my exasperation at the whole thing, a feeling we all share. When I came on here I hoped for solidarity, not hostility.

[jon365]

Has anyone tried contacting furthernationalityenquiries@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk? Has anyone got a response? They used to send an auto reply saying they'll reply in 20 days, now I don't even get that. Has anyone had any joy contacting them by some other means?

It clearly states they will conclude a case within 6 months or let the applicant know why not. So they have to be held accountable to this. It's all very well them being busy, but it's peoples lives and livelehoods they're playing with here.

[jon365]

Actually in terms of 'birthright' and who is 'deserving' we are all in the same boat and most cases will be textbook. This is true. We are also all wondering what on earth is going on. What differs is the application process itself. Something you allude to with regards to biometric set-ups abroad. Obviously the process of doing checks on foreign databases and setting up biometric facilities overseas will take time. Whereas here in the UK all checks can be done 'in-house' and post offices are already there for biometrics. So it stands to reason that it will take longer if applying from abroad than it should in the UK. Yet it's still taking far too long in the UK where there are no excuses.

[Antsmall]

First of all, I did not mean any hostility in any of my posts. This is the problem with online communication: one cannot perceive a person's tone. I intended PRECISELY solidarity. If there was any strange tone it was because you were seeming to imply (which perhaps you weren't intending, in which case this is another example of the pitfalls of remote communication) that your case was 'textbook' whereas perhaps other people's cases weren't - that in your case recognition of birthright was 'a formality', as if somehow it were not in other cases - and I wanted to point out that it was by definition a formality in all our cases because we all come from Britain even though this has not so far been recognised (which is deeply painful).

Secondly, if there was any 'lecturing' tone in my response that is of course because you replied to what I had intended as a completely non-confrontational email with a direct personal insult. I have every right to defend myself against insults and I don't think I have to be held to a high standard of 'not giving lectures' when you immediately kicked me in the face in response to what was intended as a non-confrontational message. I was shocked by your reply, actually, because it lashed out at me in response to what I intended as a friendly message commiserating about how slow the process is and how randomly the timelines are proceeding because of the idiosyncrasies of these dithering tediocrats. I was trying to be helpful by pointing out that different people's timelines have been widely varied and so we can't really predict how these bureaucrats will behave. It is almost a lottery. The 'we're in the same boat' sentiment which you hated so much (though I can't think why) was intended to be soothing and friendly: an attempt from one powerless person (powerless in the face of these faceless time-wasters) to reach out to another by pointing out that similar difficulties were common. It didn't merit an insulting reply.

Thirdly, as I mentioned in my initial response, today is my birthday. It is a horrible day for me because I thought that by now I'd have something to celebrate: after all I worked hard on getting this law changed (I spent years working on it) yet I've now seen two birthdays since what I thought was a major victory in our cause and my country still doesn't accept me. Can you please not insult me any more? I am in fact a good person (I often post things intended to help others even though I work long hours) who doesn't lash out at others. Can you also not lash out? Any hostility that you detected in my initial response was in fact not intended, and the 'worst' that was intended was to point out that the process should be by definition 'a formality' for all of us, not just you. I NEVER intend to initiate hostility because I hate it and I think that life already throws us enough unpleasantness without our having to manufacture more; I am only hostile after being attacked. Can we not unite in a common cause rather than turning on each other? Life is short.

As for the further nationality enquiries thing, I haven't bothered contacting them for a while now because my experience of them suggests that they take a month to reply and then just quote the FAQ (with added spelling errors). I was going to hibernate until my six-month mark, which is quite soon, and then call the only number where I've ever found a real human (or at least their closest approximation to one), which is 0300 123 2241. Therefore I don't know if they have ceased even sending auto-replies. That number that I gave told me, when I initially called, that only after six months had elapsed would they discuss individual cases. Therefore I'll call them at that point.

As for whether they consider themselves accountable for failing to consider an application within six months, what I see here
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... e_2015.pdf
is the rather extraordinary statement:
"Applications are considered quickly - usually within six months of receipt" (on page 19). It's like saying "we won't really disfigure your face - we'll merely give you a Glasgow smile". I don't know if there is any documentation stating that they commit themselves to responding within six months, but that document merely says in a wishy-washy way that they'll sort of try to do it within six months.

Incidentally, as an example of how they often ignore the fact that some people are applying from abroad, just a few lines down from there they talk about how 'if you live in the UK, you'll be invited to a citizenship ceremony' and then say stuff about 'your local authority'. They don't even mention whether or not people applying from abroad will have a citizenship ceremony (we do have to, but they don't bother to mention it) or how we should go about it; none of the materials at my disposal state where such ceremonies should be conducted abroad, and then the application form asks us where we want the ceremony to occur! I presume that the location is the nearest British consulate (which of course is unreachable: it has no email address and its phone number only gives a recorded message, so we can't confirm anything or communicate with them in any way at all, and of course they don't allow anyone to talk to anyone in person even by physically turning up there) but my point is that in several places the materials available don't refer to people applying from abroad. Occasionally they stick in some incongruous, usually unhelpful reference to us which seems to be an afterthought. I'm not saying that people applying from Britain have it easy in all respects, because clearly the entire procedure is an absolute shambles. But sadly those applying from abroad face additional difficulties, not only with biometrics but with general murky and incomplete guidance, lack of infrastructure and so on. It's as if the procedures and systems involved had been designed by extremely provincial people who assume in many cases that everyone concerned must be physically in Britain.

You've just given me another lecture right there. My point is also that we are all in the same boat, whether applying in Britain or from abroad. We're all sitting here wondering what's going on and waiting. My original post was one that showed my exasperation at the whole thing, a feeling we all share. When I came on here I hoped for solidarity, not hostility.

[jon365]

I didn't insult you. You are being way too over sensitive and I'm sick of this now. All I said was I didn't need a 'sanctimonious lecture', which it sounded like at the time. Basically you came back at me(and still do) with a long speech about how important and deserving you are too and how much you have done and been through etc. I already know this. I never once implied we're not all equally deserving, in the same boat, etc, etc, etc. In fact, by your definition, I could say you have insulted me too. I wish I'd never bothered posting now, so thanks for that.

And I know this will set the cat amongst the pigeons, so brace yourself, but you seem to have a thing about people applying in the UK as opposed to abroad. Well for those living in the UK, in addition to it being our 'birthright' and something we are 'owed', we need a UK passport/citizenship for all sorts of practical reasons too, whereas if you live abroad and have made a life elsewhere then you probably don't.

Good luck to everyone. I hope it all comes through.

[Antsmall]

You really don't want to make peace, do you?

I never insulted you, nor did I intend any hostility as I explained, and I was even holding out olive branches, trying to agree that the whole thing was a misunderstanding and move on to the real matter at hand. Yet you keep criticising me personally. I was lecturing you, I'm sanctimonious, then I dared to lecture you again after you insulted me (my word, the effrontery!), I'm prejudiced against people who are physically in Britain, I'm too sensitive - your focus is what's personally wrong with me, whereas this resource is about obtaining citizenship. A significant portion of the 'long messages' which you complain about consisted of actual INFORMATION about citizenship which I offered in an attempt to get past all the cat-fighting, get back to the real topic under discussion, and be actually helpful and collaborative. Yet you only go back to listing my alleged personal flaws. You began making it personal and you won't stop.

I don't have anything against people applying from the UK. That would be incredibly silly. I was merely pointing out that the materials and procedures penalise people applying from abroad, which is indubitably true and is not even a controversial (much less hostile or insulting or 'sanctimonious') thing to say. And by the way, the fact that people are in Britain doesn't imply that they don't have another citizenship and therefore need British citizenship more than those who are abroad. If they had no other citizenship they would be stateless, and stateless people born in Britain can make use of other provisions for obtaining British citizenship (which doesn't apply in your case because a French passport is already available).
https://www.gov.uk/register-british-cit ... ess-people
Furthermore, people born in Britain, even of non-British parents, can obtain British citizenship if they are still under 18 and have lived in Britain for ten years.
https://www.gov.uk/register-british-cit ... after-1983

I was trying to be conciliatory but you simply won't have any of it and seem to revel in confrontation. You won't let go of the petty hostility despite peace-making efforts, and quite frankly life is too short for me to waste any more time trying to get someone like you to be reasonable. It's clearly a lost cause.

[chocolateorange88]

Can someone lock this please! Gone on longer than it needed to. Guys please continue your arguing in pm.

[Antsmall]

I'm certainly not going to address it again. I tried to get it finished in my previous message, which didn't work, but I'm putting an end to it now and will ignore any subsequent jibes. Let's get back to the real issue.

[Antsmall]

I've just heard from someone who is approaching, or has even possibly reached by now, the six-month mark since their application. They say that they've now received a letter from the Home Office recognising that their application was approaching the 'target' resolution date of six months, and stating that the person's case will probably be resolved by the 25th of December (hmm).

So at least once cases reach the six-month mark, or are about to do so, the Home Office may give signs of life. (We have only one example so far, but it's better than nothing). Also, the six-month mark does appear to have some significance for them: they imply that we have some vague right to expect that the case should have been resolved by then. In this panorama of almost uniform bleakness it is encouraging that they are communicating with someone if even in such a slow and unclear manner.

The letter also referred to some 'outstanding policy issues' that have to be sorted out in order for the case to be finalised, but was no clearer than that. Neither I nor the recipient of the letter have any clue what they could possibly mean. These mysterious 'issues' may be the reasons for all the delays we're seeing. After all, I know of only one person who got citizenship this way, and that may have been before these 'policy issues' came to light.

I wonder if some of the other earlier applicants will begin to receive similar letters in the near future.

[mikeg333]

My application I used UKM similar to UKF and applied from the US. I just received my approval today. They didn't require biometrics for me not sure if it's because I mailed it out by April 8th or because I'm in the US and they don't have biometrics setup. Either way so happy the long wait is over and ready to book my ceremony at my local consulate.

[Antsmall]

So the stuff you said earlier about them not requiring the biometric stuff, because you had applied earlier than the beginning of that requirement, must have been true.

Can you tell us what sort of material you received about the citizenship ceremony? Just an instruction to contact the consulate or something more precise? The problem is that at least where I am (which is also in the USA), the British consulate makes itself impossible to contact: it has no email address, its phone number only has recorded messages, it doesn't allow anyone to turn up without an appointment, and the appointment-booking system on its website is broken. So I hope they gave you something more concrete. Thanks for any information you may provide!

[yktamimi]

Would you like to hear the wonderful news?
I have contacted the HM passport office earlier this day; I asked them if they accept a nationality status letter issued from the home office.....Amazingly they have said yes. and decided to expend my application deadline
I am going to fill out the NS application form on behalf of my father; I think that I have to submit a proof of his citizenship.
I have to right to the examiner of passport office to ask here if I can get hold of my father's British passport. this passport will be used as a proof of citizenship when I submit it along with the NS Application form.

Has anyone got anyone idea about NS applicaiton form, like processing time...and any important hints

[Antsmall]

That's a relief. I was going to point out that someone else - and I think it's mikeg333 who just posted another message today, but forgive me if I'm wrong - said that they too didn't have their naturalised parent's original naturalisation certificate but the citizenship authorities DID accept a certified copy from the national archives, precisely the document that the passport people wouldn't accept from you (unreasonably, since the authorities themselves are the ones that make it impossible to obtain a duplicate certificate so they should have some sort of workaround in place).

Hopefully this will work. I do not know the first thing about it, though, and you may be better posting it in a category more closely related to it or, if you can't find one, making it into its own thread about Nationality Status letters within the citizenship category of the forum. I don't know anything more about it than what anyone with an internet connexion could glean by simply doing online searches.

Look here
http://www.immigrationboards.com/british-citizenship/
(this is the general citizenship category of this forum) and see if there's an existing thread about the same topic, and if not - or if you post there and nobody answers because the thread is too old - then create a new thread about this topic and call it something that others with a similar problem will notice, such as "Nationality Status letter".

[mikeg333]

My acceptance letter said my certificate is being mailed to the Los Angeles British consulate. That is the one I put on my application where I would like to do my ceremony. They said they will contact me to arrange the ceremony. I also am looking for a way to contact them. I have a trip planned in less than 3 weeks to the UK and need to do my ceremony before then. Can't find any information on how to contact them either.

In terms of the documents sent with my application, I used a certified copy of my mothers naturalization certificate from the 1960s that I got from the UK National Archives and they accepted that.

Now need to figure out if I can do a rush passport after my ceremony.

[yktamimi]

To mikeg333

As per your last email, I just would like to know, what exactly you have applied for? Is it a British passport or British citizenship?
If your mum was a British citizen by naturalization then I would presume that you’re a British citizen by descent. In this case there is no need for you to neither apply for citizenship nor register your birth. However you can apply straightaway for the passport. As it would cost less time and money.

One more thing. You have mentioned that you have obtained your mother's naturalization certificate from the national archives. Was she a foreign national? Because foregoing nationals do not get the chance to get duplicate certificate, they can however obtain an index record. This is what happened with me when I applied to obtain my father's certificate.
His certificate's ref. number HO 409/27/17739
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... /C12181210

Could you tell me please what’s your mother ref. number

[mikeg333]

I am American born in the US but my mother is British. I applied to register as a British citizen using form UKM similar to UKF. When I applied back in April I had to get a certified copy of her naturalisation certificate from the National Archives as she lost hers and it was from the 1960s. They sent me an A4 embossed certified copy which I included in my UKM application.

I still need to do a ceremony oath for my registration and then need to apply for a UK passport.

[Antsmall]

Thank you Mikeg333 for the information about the citizenship ceremony, and congratulations on your success during this long process!

Yktamimi, the reason why Mikeg333 had to register instead of merely applying for a passport is, I suspect, because he or she was born before 1983. After 1983, mothers and civilly married fathers who were British 'otherwise than by descent' (meaning essentially by birth in Britain or naturalisation, though it's a bit more complicated) could both convey nationality for one generation to their children born abroad. Before then, only civilly married fathers could do that; nationality was not passed through the mother. The law changed and now people born abroad before 1983 to British mothers (who are not British only by descent) can obtain British citizenship if only they first register themselves for citizenship just as the UKF people (children of civilly unmarried fathers) are doing, but with a very similar form called UKM instead. So that is why Mike had to register before applying for a passport. It's all about the dates. Correct me Mike if I'm wrong.

Regarding replacement naturalisation certificates, you've probably seen this already but first of all there's this: https://www.gov.uk/get-replacement-citi ... ertificate As you can see, and as you've already been informed by the national archives, you can't get a *replacement* certificate for a naturalisation certificate issued before 1986, but you can get a certified copy from the archives. This is described here:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help ... 1949-1986/ This must have been what the national archives told you they could give you, what Mikeg333 got, and what your particular passport person rejected as 'not an official document'. It is possible that, as we've been seeing in several places on this forum, the *citizenship* authorities are more lenient than the *passport* authorities: for instance, this thread
http://www.immigrationboards.com/britis ... 83170.html
shows that while the citizenship authorities will allow a person to register or naturalise for citizenship in their married name even though their foreign passport is in their maiden name, the passport authorities won't issue a passport in the married name unless the foreign passport has also been issued in that name or, at their discretion and quite recently following efforts to obtain some flexibility, unless the dual national submits proof that they are unable to change the name on their foreign passport because their other country doesn't allow name changes. My point is that the passport authority is a different office from the citizenship authority and appears to be stricter; ironically, since Mike had to go through a more convoluted (hence from one perspective much more annoying) process to obtain citizenship and it involved the citizenship office, the certified copy of the naturalisation certificate was accepted and the citizenship registration certificate will be able to be used for gaining a passport, whereas your process is technically 'simpler' because you only have to apply directly for a passport, BUT you are facing difficulties due to the problem with your father's naturalisation certificate because the passport people, or just the specific official that handled you case, is being more constipated about this than Mike's citizenship official. It is an example of the Kafkaesque self-contradiction and complication that bureaucracies can develop.

Luckily though, you may now be able to by-pass this entire problem by obtaining a Nationality Status letter, so hopefully the above information will be rendered irrelevant.

So, congratulations to both of you and good luck to all.

[bfrenchfry]

Anstmall, I'm officially in the same boat now as your other contact. I'm 1.5 weeks shy of 6 months and just got the dreaded letter saying following assessment of my case I cannot be processed in the 6 months, also blaming an "outstanding policy issue which needs to be resolved". I'm guessing that's the biometric requirement which they haven't bothered setting up centers in the US to handle yet? My letter states "we expect to make a decision on your application by 28/12/2015, but we will write to you again if this is not going to be possible". So I guess I'm looking at 8 months of waiting if I'm lucky. This is absolutely insane. Oh and of course they didn't return my documents to me even though I've requested them through their site 3 times now!!

[lagos1980]

I've just heard from someone who is approaching, or has even possibly reached by now, the six-month mark since their application. They say that they've now received a letter from the Home Office recognising that their application was approaching the 'target' resolution date of six months, and stating that the person's case will probably be resolved by the 25th of December (hmm).

So at least once cases reach the six-month mark, or are about to do so, the Home Office may give signs of life. (We have only one example so far, but it's better than nothing). Also, the six-month mark does appear to have some significance for them: they imply that we have some vague right to expect that the case should have been resolved by then. In this panorama of almost uniform bleakness it is encouraging that they are communicating with someone if even in such a slow and unclear manner.

The letter also referred to some 'outstanding policy issues' that have to be sorted out in order for the case to be finalised, but was no clearer than that. Neither I nor the recipient of the letter have any clue what they could possibly mean. These mysterious 'issues' may be the reasons for all the delays we're seeing. After all, I know of only one person who got citizenship this way, and that may have been before these 'policy issues' came to light.

I wonder if some of the other earlier applicants will begin to receive similar letters in the near future.

Is this person applying from the US? I'm asking because if they are in the US, like bfrenchfry pointed out, the "outstanding policy issue" may be the absence of biometric info. In which case, those of us applying from countries where this isn't an issue can still be optimistic about a resolution within the 6 months.

[Antsmall]

The other person was applying from Australia. The only document they've issued
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... ule_v2.pdf
about the schedule of opening the biometric schedule (unless there's another one that I haven't found) gives Australia as one of the countries in category 3 (May 2015). Obviously they haven't obeyed their own schedule because the USA was in category 4 ('rest of the world', July 2015) and there hasn't been a peep about the biometric infrastructure there to date, but Australia was supposed to be sorted out earlier. Of course it could be that they still haven't opened the biometric thingies in Australia either, since the fact that they declare a date obviously doesn't mean much.

So basically we have no idea if it's the biometric thing or not.

I hate how they express it: "a decision on your application" and "policy issues which may affect your case" as if somehow the person's eligibility for citizenship were being questioned rather than it merely being a matter of them having to sort out some bureaucracy or infrastructure. They could have been kinder. They also could have refrained from ruining people's Christmas.

I'm sorry bfrenchfry that you have to go through this nonsense after waiting so long. I guess this is their modus operandi now and many of us will probably receive a similar letter soon enough. And this business of not returning your passport, preventing you from working, is truly disgraceful. Well the whole business is. They had more than a year between approval of the law in March 2014 and commencement in April 2015 and they still can't sort themselves out. Their incompetence is becoming disrespectful to us.

By the way, another example of the extreme negligence of such officials is the passport office's failure to address a Freedom of Information request I made on the 15th of April even though by law they should have responded long ago. It seems that negligence and unnecessary delays are rife in British bureaucracy.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... oose_h/new

[yktamimi]

Dear All
I just have a quick question about the proper supporting documents that should go along with the NS application form. according to the Home Office stuff (When I had a telephone coversation with him) he requested a Passport, but in some other forums they mentioned that I have to obtain an indexed record of naturalization certificate from the national archives, and get it sent over to the home office. This is necessary because the home office does not retain any records for certificates issued before 1986.

Could I have any input here.

[anahamilton]

Dear All
I just have a quick question about the proper supporting documents that should go along with the NS application form. according to the Home Office stuff (When I had a telephone coversation with him) he requested a Passport, but in some other forums they mentioned that I have to obtain an indexed record of naturalization certificate from the national archives, and get it sent over to the home office. This is necessary because the home office does not retain any records for certificates issued before 1986.

Could I have any input here.

This is a UKF Form related topic. Please, forward your message to the correct topic. Thanks.

[lagos1980]

The other person was applying from Australia. The only document they've issued
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... ule_v2.pdf
about the schedule of opening the biometric schedule (unless there's another one that I haven't found) gives Australia as one of the countries in category 3 (May 2015). Obviously they haven't obeyed their own schedule because the USA was in category 4 ('rest of the world', July 2015) and there hasn't been a peep about the biometric infrastructure there to date, but Australia was supposed to be sorted out earlier. Of course it could be that they still haven't opened the biometric thingies in Australia either, since the fact that they declare a date obviously doesn't mean much.

So basically we have no idea if it's the biometric thing or not.

I hate how they express it: "a decision on your application" and "policy issues which may affect your case" as if somehow the person's eligibility for citizenship were being questioned rather than it merely being a matter of them having to sort out some bureaucracy or infrastructure. They could have been kinder. They also could have refrained from ruining people's Christmas.

I'm sorry bfrenchfry that you have to go through this nonsense after waiting so long. I guess this is their modus operandi now and many of us will probably receive a similar letter soon enough. And this business of not returning your passport, preventing you from working, is truly disgraceful. Well the whole business is. They had more than a year between approval of the law in March 2014 and commencement in April 2015 and they still can't sort themselves out. Their incompetence is becoming disrespectful to us.

By the way, another example of the extreme negligence of such officials is the passport office's failure to address a Freedom of Information request I made on the 15th of April even though by law they should have responded long ago. It seems that negligence and unnecessary delays are rife in British bureaucracy.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... oose_h/new

Applicants from Australia, have any of you done your biometrics, or received a letter to do so?

[Antsmall]

In the meantime, here
http://www.immigrationboards.com/britis ... M#p1249141
there are several references to people in Australia (mostly UKM, citizenship through mothers, which is very similar to ours) having done their biometrics recently - in the past couple of months or so. It looks, therefore, as if the biometric centres have in fact been set up there. This would suggest that the mysterious 'policy issue' that is now being presented as a reason for these quite substantial and increasingly burdensome delays in citizenship applications is not related to the biometric procedures.

And here
http://www.immigrationboards.com/britis ... M#p1256172
there is another reference to people getting letters about the impossibility of their cases being processed within six months. There is also mention of a 'policy' though there is no indication of what it might be.

[mikeg333]

bfrenchfry I would still have hope as I received the same exact letter saying an outstanding policy issue and mine would be decided on December 24th. Two weeks after I got that letter I got my approval. I don't think they are requiring biometrics from US applicants until they have set it up.

As far as getting your passport back I tried that online form never got a reply. I emailed the FurtherNationality address that I had urgent travel as I was flying internationally and they had someone contact me within a few days to arrange the return of my passport.