Is BRP compulsory if I already have ILR in passport

[Islander]

I have obtained Leave to Remain in UK for Indefinite Period in 1993. Since then, I lived in peace, working and paying tax, council tax, Pension and NI. Recently, I started thinking of changing job and approached some recruitment agencies. Out of blue, bomb dropped I was told to obtain BRP if I have permit to remain in UK indefinitely in my old passport.

1 I understand this topic popped up in the past but it was inconclusive. Is switching from the sticker on old passport to BRP card compulsory? New employer might want to see it, but I might go for freelance, self employed. In that case, I am responsible for my own employment. I phoned immigration office, emailed several mail addresses but have been sent in circles. One woman told me while I could pass with old passport and the latest one at border control, I must obtain BRP. When I questioned further to clarify, she repeated the same answer and did not give me a clear answer and got quite rude. Other man told me not to worry about it until my current passport expires. It doesn't make sense either as my current passport does no longer carry a stamp. Nobody seems to listen or read email properly Do they really understand English?
As it is very expensive to obtain one and the process seems quite painful, reading the forum, and I am extremely worried about sending all passports of 20 years by post even registered, half of me think I could do without one if it's not compulsory.

2, supposing I apply for one, the form for the person who already have the Indefinite permit, asks BRP ref no in Question 1.12. Other question such as NI have added part 'if you have one' but BRP Ref no does not have 'if you have one'. Where should I get the ref no. if I don't already have one? Since they charge the fee first before they start reading the rest of the form, I do not want to have it rejected on the base of lacking BRP ref no.

I very much appreciate it if somebody could shed a light on this issue. Thank you

[vinny]

1. Unfortunately.
2. Suggest putting "N/A" in section 1.2. The "if" appears in Section 4.

If you have a current grant of leave on a Biometric Residence Permit you must provide your Biometric Residence Permit for the application to be valid and complete.

[Islander]

Hi Vinny, Thank you for your response. Where did you find out it is compulsory to transfer LRI to BRP?
In August, you have advised on:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/genera ... l#p1232259
‘

you may legally work, unless your ILR was revoked or cancelled after being away for more than two years……
Moreover, if you were self-employed prior to expiry of your old passport, then you have already satisfied yourself of your right to work. It's a bit silly, isn't it?’

I am most likely to be self-employed. However, I would still like to be sure. This is gov web site.
https://www.gov.uk/biometric-residence-permits
‘1. Why you need a BRP
You must have a biometric residence permit (BRP) if you want to:

• apply to come to the UK
• apply to extend your visa or settle in the UK
• transfer your visa to a new passport
You don’t have to transfer your visa - you can carry both your old and new passports when travelling to or from the UK instead.’

I am not applying now, but it was 20 yrs ago. I do not need to extend as I already have LRI
It also states:

You can transfer your visa to a BRP by applying for a ‘no time limit stamp’ (NTL).

It does not say you SHOULD… It also states:

Use this form if you already have indefinite leave to remain in the UK in your passport and you now wish to transfer it to a biometric residence permit…..’

They give me an impression that it’s an option only if I wanted to…
However, I am a law abiding citizen, do not wish to get into trouble, and so check this one too.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... 2015.pdf33. An immigration

‘sanction will not be used where the person has existing indefinite leave to enter or remain in the UK, unless there are compelling reasons for cancelling this leave’

I do not meant to argue but need clarification. Thank you

[geriatrix]

Home Office seems to be asserting the following:

1. ILR vignette in expired passport + current passport = valid to live in the UK + valid to travel to/from UK.
2. ILR vignette in expired passport + current passport = not valid to demonstrate "legal right to work" in the UK = apply for a BRP.

I am yet to come across a formal document to suggest that 2. is now a poilcy / law ..... maybe haven't searched deep enough?

[vinny]

NTL is nothing more than a confirmation of Indefinite leave status (29). This may be analogous to a permanent residence card for a person residing under the EEA Regulations.

Similarly, a CoE-RoA and British passport is just evidence of a person's right of abode.

They do not confer the status, but are merely evidence of the status.

However, these status may be lost or revoked under limited circumstances.

The UKVI are using the threat of fines to discourage new employers from employing someone without a valid BRP nor a valid CoE-RoA, etc. Effectively, the UKVI are implicitly recruiting employers as untrained and unpaid immigration officers, without giving them the equivalent of option 1. Previously, an ILR in an expired passport was perfectly acceptable. But their Rules and Policies keep changing.

Moreover, their threat is not limited to just new employers, soon it will affect new landlords, or possibly others, as well.

[chickpea]

Home Office seems to be asserting the following:

1. ILR vignette in expired passport + current passport = valid to live in the UK + valid to travel to/from UK.
2. ILR vignette in expired passport + current passport = not valid to demonstrate "legal right to work" in the UK = apply for a BRP.

I am yet to come across a formal document to suggest that 2. is now a poilcy / law ..... maybe haven't searched deep enough?

I've just been through this (see my thread in this forum starting "Biometric...") and from my experience, what I have been told, etc the answer is yes. I've not found a law or any similar information on the gov.uk pages, even though they are generally quite good. I did check on the right to work checklist and the position seems ambivalent, and since my new employer required the BRP before I could start, I had no choice.

Here are the UKVI pages I referenced:
https://www.gov.uk/transfer-visa
https://www.gov.uk/biometric-residence-permits
and a checklist here...
https://www.gov.uk/legal-right-work-uk

Hope this helps.

[Islander]

Hi Chckpea, I have read your thread. The difference between us is that I am most likely to be self employed if I leave current employer with whom I started working when BRP hadn't existed. Mine is ILP, therefore the condition will not change. I also read in gov's website something like... if you received permit after May 2012(?) you need BRP. I obtained mine in 1993. I can see from employers point of view that they want to be absolutely sure that you are a legal worker hence need to check BRP. If I am to be self employed, I am the employer and I know I have ILR. So far, all I found is that employer needs to ensure the worker is legal; we have the option to transfer from ILR to BRP if we wanted. Border control is OK with old passport and the latest one. I did so in April when I come back from home country. No mention of BRP at passport control.
UK government attempted to enforce ID card to own citizens and failed as people and other politicians opposed to it. They decided to impose on us as foreigners can't do much to protest,, but it looks they haven't quite made it yet. As Vinny suggest, things could change... next year.... I suppose while I am not really convinced that I need it, I will probably give in while I have money to pay,when I get time to go to premium center. I will never send all passports by post even registered. I have experience of deliveries lost in post offices and witnesses docs lost in the office

[vinny]

If you are (going to be) self-employed, then you have already satisfied yourself of the validity of your ILR, since when they first granted it. Your passports are your own records of it, presumably showing that you haven't lost it by being continuously absent from the UK for over two years. Nor has it been revoked. Its validity was also confirmed recently by an Immigration Officer at the border.

I don't really think that you have to apply for NTL for the purpose of self-employment.

[Islander]

That's what I thought...
I will keep the option open. It's been a worry for me; , what if I am burgled and lose the very important old passport with the ILR sticker. The very reason I do not want to send application by post. BRP can be a back up, in case I lose the passport
The burden has lifted as I am sure it's only an option in my case. And so, I will apply when I have time (and while I am clean without any criminal record, debts, public fund )

[vinny]

In case of burglary, keep multiple copies of all your passports' pages. Have them certified by a solicitor?

Have you considered naturalisation?

[pnlakshmi]

Yes, BRP is going to be compulsory as the agents and employers getting worried about the
HO going strict with it and employers does not want to take a chance.
I was told this by an employment agency.