Will a pregnancy help?

[frances2]

Thanks for all your input. I paid for 2 hours of the solicitors time. I've prepared the accompanying letters etc myself. I think i've done a pretty good job.... We'll see. She's going to look at these letters, then the rest is up to me... and him, but I'm in charge of this. I'm extremey pedantic and will make sure the case is the absolute best it can be...

I have to apply for a VV. There's nothing else we can apply for. Fiance visa is out because his divorce is not through yet. But I'm realistic about the chances. I'm putting together a very detailed application, so that even if it's refused, it'll be on record and can hopefully only help build a case for the future....

We will be submitting in early November, the wait is not long to find out if it's accepted. I will definitely keep you all posted, I really appreciate all your comments.

If anyones interested I could pm the letters/statements, I know I need all the help I can get... But I understand if this is a no no, from looking at the rest of the threads, there's a lot pf people out there need help and only a few experts to go round.

[frances2]

He may to you and others look dodgy, but he is not. And I do not appreciate ..

BTW, I know one or two people in Ireland who speak English. And there's no harm in learning French or Spanish. But I'm sure it won't come to that. Good luck. I'll watch out for updates to this thread.

Ok. You know more of this than I do. My family own a house in Spain - this may help. But I don't understand how he can apply to a country to which he has no ties, but we'll consider anything.

Furthermore, would I have to be living in said country? I'm in a well paid job here in the UK which is not that easily transferable to elsewhere.

[Wanderer]

He may to you and others look dodgy, but he is not. And I do not appreciate ..

BTW, I know one or two people in Ireland who speak English. :lol: And there's no harm in learning French or Spanish. But I'm sure it won't come to that. Good luck. I'll watch out for updates to this thread.

Ok. You know more of this than I do. My family own a house in Spain - this may help. But I don't understand how he can apply to a country to which he has no ties, but we'll consider anything.

Furthermore, would I have to be living in said country? I'm in a well paid job here in the UK which is not that easily transferable to elsewhere.

You need to be living/working/studying or otherwise self-sufficient in said EU state for six months although at least one person here got away with it on a holiday.

[avjones]

Furthermore, would I have to be living in said country? I'm in a well paid job here in the UK which is not that easily transferable to elsewhere.

You would have to be exercising Treaty Rights in another EU state - broadly speaking, that means working / studying / living off independent means.

[frances2]

Hi

We have now submitted our application for a visa. It has been declined. However it was accepted as a family visa application, so we can appeal.

I'm waiting for the delivery of the refusal letter, but it sounds like the refusal was based on the fact my boyfriend had previously overstayed.

When I have the full details infront of me I'm sure I'll be back, bending a few ears for advice.

[paulp]

Hi frances2,

As you may or may not have become aware by browsing the forum, the situation has changed very much since the last time you posted, particularly regarding overstayers and spouse visas. Have a look at the following thread:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=20370

[frances2]

Yes thanks, I'd read that thread.

Hopefully at appeal things may be different, but I need to see the refusal letter with my own eyes first.

I'm just relieved it was considered as a family visit, even though we're not family - yet - so that I get the chance to go to court.

[VictoriaS]

I think that there may be a problem.

Although the application has been considered as a family visit, and you have been given right of appeal, I think there is a good chance that was a mistake. You should prepare yourself for the possibility of getting to court, finding the HOPO argue this, and the judge throwing the case out.

You need to discuss this with your lawyer immediately. The definitition of 'family visit' is VERY tight, and I am very sure that 'mother of unborn child' does not count as a family member.


Victoria

[frances2]

Thanks Victoria.

Interestingly it was at the insistance of the person who processed the application in Kingston, that we put family visitor. We had just ticked visitor.

Surely if the mistake has been made by an officer of World Bridge and not recognised by the ECO, I will have a strong case for this to be considered under this criteria. It's there mistake.... not mine.....

The thing with the overstaying is concerning. Do the appeal courts have the same blancket view of overstayers? Or is this forum more open to reasonable consideration.

[avjones]

Hi Frances - we don't yet know the view that the tribunal and courts will take of the overstayer-equals-refusal case. It hasn't been considered yet.

[frances2]

Hi

I now the reason for refusal in my sweaty hand....

In essence it's been refused on rule 41 (i) and (ii).

However there are some factual errors within the refusal letter that suggest to me they have not even read the huge amount of supporting documents we submitted.

I have been given right to appeal but not full rights.
I can appeal under
84(1)(b)(c) Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act
Which are to do with race relations and human rights.

My head is in a bit of a spin, particularly in view of the fact that the time, effort etc has been completely ignored and that the factual errors made by the ECO suggest they've not read the application.

[avjones]

What type of factual errors were made?

Which paragraph of the Immigration Rules did they consider the application under?

[frances2]

What type of factual errors were made?

Which paragraph of the Immigration Rules did they consider the application under?

Factual errors
- they say he's applied for a 2 month holiday in the UK, the word holiday was not mentioned, the request was for 5 months so he could be at the birth of our child and look after me after my section
- they mention the fact that his marriage has broken down because of seperation, which it has, but then allude to the fact that he has started a relationship with me even though I live the UK. I've been to see him 4 times in the last 10 months alone and sent proof of this.
There are others, but the tone of the refusal smacks of total disregard for current circumstances. They also state that that his current circumstances lack credibility - but believe me there was reems and reems of evidence to validate our relationship, I just don't think they've bothered to look.

The application was considered under Section 41.

Thanks for your interest.
I thought there was a strong possibility the application would be refused, but it's hard to accept when I don't feel it's been considered properly or for that matter even read.

[avjones]

The word holiday is frequently used in terms of visitors' visas, I wouldn't worry about that. The 2 / 5 month thing does show a lack of attention, of course.

By s.41, I assume you mean Rule 41 of the Immigration Rules? It's the most likely rule. It reads:

41. The requirements to be met by a person seeking leave to enter the United Kingdom as a visitor are that he:

(i) is genuinely seeking entry as a visitor for a limited period as stated by him, not exceeding 6 months; and

(ii) intends to leave the United Kingdom at the end of the period of the visit as stated by him; and

(iii) does not intend to take employment in the United Kingdom; and

(iv) does not intend to produce goods or provide services within the United Kingdom, including the selling of goods or services direct to members of the public; and

(v) does not intend to undertake a course of study; and

(vi) will maintain and accommodate himself and any dependants adequately out of resources available to him without recourse to public funds or taking employment; or will, with any dependants, be maintained and accommodated adequately by relatives or friends; and

(vii) can meet the cost of the return or onward journey.; and

(viii) is not a child under the age of 18.


As refused under 41(i) and 41(ii), the ECO doubts that he is a genuine visitor, and doubts that he intends to return at the end of his visit.

Jamaica is renowned for being a place with a high refusal rate, I'm afraid. I think it very unlikely that a further application or review would change their minds, your only option would be an appeal. Remind me, when is your baby due?

The appeal might well fall on grounds of jurisdiction, as Victoria's already said.

[frances2]

My baby is due 15 May.

Yes they say they doubt he'll return etc etc. We both prepared lengthy statements for the application. In his he acknowleged the fact that the ECO may have concerns over his intention to return. He pointed out the fact he will definately return because we want to eventually live a normal life together in the UK and be able to come and go as we please from the UK. Also because he were to disappear and become illegal he wouldn't be able to live with me and his child.

I have a serious issue over the fact they doubted his credibilty over our relationship, that therefore means that I am also lieing! What right do they have to say I'm a liar. What redress do I have against this?

[avjones]

My baby is due 15 May.

Much sympathy - having a baby is a time when you don't need all this pressure, and do need the father around!

I have a serious issue over the fact they doubted his credibilty over our relationship, that therefore means that I am also lieing! What right do they have to say I'm a liar. What redress do I have against this?

They aren't, necessarily. It's about his intentions, not yours. You have no redress other than the AIT appeal route.

[OL7MAX]

that therefore means that I am also lieing! What right do they have to say I'm a liar. What redress do I have against this?

First, I'd calm down These jobsworths are just doing what they were told in the training class last week. They could have been told - and it's highly likely they were - to just turn down as many applications as they can and that there's a bonus for the one who is best at finding flimsy excuses on which to reject applications. It's not personal and if you take it personally you've lost.

Him pointing out that his intention is to eventually live a normal life here doesn't help his case. If he has intention to live here then he is "likely" to go underground on arrival. At least that's what they're thinking and that is what internal Rule Number One is for turning down applications. His claim that disappearing in the UK is not conducive to his long term plans may sound logical to him but sounds like flim-flam to an ECO. It's not something that can be proven so it's hot air, it's merit-less and can be completely ignored.

If you have provided "reems and reems" of documentation to validate the relationship then them turning you down on lack of relationship grounds should be easily overturned on appeal. However, that's not the case. I'd quit taking it personally and prepare to approach the main problem and it's not that they don't believe you have a genuine relationship. That doesn't seem to be what S41 is about.

[frances2]

OK! I've calmed down, well a bit.....

I take your point that you can say just about anything in a letter and it could just be rubbish, there's no way of proving it...

So how does anyone prove they'll return to their original country. Surely there must come a point where they have to take people at their word.

[OL7MAX]

No, the HO doesn't have need to take anyone's word for anything. Why should they? They've got the option of turning him down. Either he has very strong documentary proof or he hasn't. That's it.

[frances2]

Ok.

The grounds I have for appeal are Human rights Act, and Race Relations Act. I do not have leave to appeal under the Immigration Act. So in essence this application was not considered a family visit - you were right Victoria....

Seen as there's no point reapplying for a visitor visa, we can't apply for a settlement visa (divorce still pending - but being processed), I'm going to atleast try to excercise my right to appeal under the Human Rights Act.... My solicitor rightly told me there was not much point, so I'm going to put the case together without wasting valuable money on expensive legal bills.

I've read the act and the Human Rights Convention and put together a 4 page extravaganza. It'll no doubt be thrown straight in the bin by the appeal tribunal, but I know I'm right and I'm telling the truth. So if the Law goes against me, my partner and my baby, so be it...

I'm also going to send letters here, there and everywhere and generally make a nuisance of myself.

Does anyone know how long it is before I would expect to hear from the Appeal Tribunal once I've submitted my papers? If it gets to court it'll probably fall on my due date....

[sally12345]

Thanks for all your input. I paid for 2 hours of the solicitors time. I've prepared the accompanying letters etc myself. I think i've done a pretty good job.... We'll see. She's going to look at these letters, then the rest is up to me... and him, but I'm in charge of this. I'm extremey pedantic and will make sure the case is the absolute best it can be...

I have to apply for a VV. There's nothing else we can apply for. Fiance visa is out because his divorce is not through yet. But I'm realistic about the chances. I'm putting together a very detailed application, so that even if it's refused, it'll be on record and can hopefully only help build a case for the future....

We will be submitting in early November, the wait is not long to find out if it's accepted. I will definitely keep you all posted, I really appreciate all your comments.

If anyones interested I could pm the letters/statements, I know I need all the help I can get... But I understand if this is a no no, from looking at the rest of the threads, there's a lot pf people out there need help and only a few experts to go round.

Hi frances2, did you get my PM? I was wondering if you could supply me with those supporting letters? I want to see if I need to add more on my letter or cut it down by 5 pages!!!! Please could you do this I would be very grateful.

Good Luck with your appeal

[OL7MAX]

Appeal tribunals - as with most magistrates/judges/recorders in the legal system - get impressed by meticulously done research and careful preparation. It panders to their ego and makes them feel favourably disposed towards you.

My solicitor rightly told me there was not much point, so I'm going to put the case together without wasting valuable money on expensive legal bills.

The people who are capable of doing the research themselves usually end up spending time and money on solicitors before realising most solicitors are pretty useless when compared with a well-informed man on the street who's fighting his own case. If you're going to pay a lawyer pay them for this specific job: to pick holes in your carefully prepared case. A "no holes no pay" deal would be nice.

The overall impression of this man may be that if he entered into a "marriage of convenience" before (you did state she married him to "help him with his visa") he has shown bad faith and willingness to break the law and so shouldn't be allowed into the UK again. But I like your spunk and wish you good luck.

[avjones]

Hi Frances,

when you say you've read the Act, I imagine you are focusing on Article 8 (Right to respect for private and family life).

There is, not surprisingly, a great deal of case law about whtat this means in immigration terms.

The most recent House of Lords case is Huang v SSHD

http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKHL/2007/11.html

[frances2]

Thanks for all your input. I paid for 2 hours of the solicitors time. I've prepared the accompanying letters etc myself. I think i've done a pretty good job.... We'll see. She's going to look at these letters, then the rest is up to me... and him, but I'm in charge of this. I'm extremey pedantic and will make sure the case is the absolute best it can be...

I have to apply for a VV. There's nothing else we can apply for. Fiance visa is out because his divorce is not through yet. But I'm realistic about the chances. I'm putting together a very detailed application, so that even if it's refused, it'll be on record and can hopefully only help build a case for the future....

We will be submitting in early November, the wait is not long to find out if it's accepted. I will definitely keep you all posted, I really appreciate all your comments.

If anyones interested I could pm the letters/statements, I know I need all the help I can get... But I understand if this is a no no, from looking at the rest of the threads, there's a lot pf people out there need help and only a few experts to go round.

Hi frances2, did you get my PM? I was wondering if you could supply me with those supporting letters? I want to see if I need to add more on my letter or cut it down by 5 pages!!!! Please could you do this I would be very grateful.

Good Luck with your appeal

[frances2]

Sorry! I'm trying to be clever and quote Sally!

Sally. I've just had another look at the letters and they're very personal to myself and partner, so I don't think they'd be much use to you.

From what I've heard from your story so far it sounds as if you've got a really good case. Am I right in that you're married and living together in the UK, but want to make things "official" - please forgive me if I've got you're history wrong....

From what I'm gathering the most important thing you can get together is evidence of your life together, anything which has both your names on. Things that put him at your address etc etc. The work thing is a bit tricky as if he's not legal then he probably shouldn't be working and that might go against him? I'm not sure. I'm no expert...