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Points based system - English language tests

Archived UK Tier 1 (General) points system forum. This route no longer exists.

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pantaiema
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Post by pantaiema » Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:01 pm

See the following FT global rankings 2007 of MBA school
Ceibs (ranking 11 of world top[ universities) is located in CHina
(http://rankings.ft.com/global-mba-rankings)


500 Top universities ranking: (http://www.arwu.org/)
Tsinghua Univ Asia/Pac China
Nanjing Univ Asia/Pac China
Peking Univ Asia/Pac China
Shanghai Jiao Tong Univ China
Zhejiang Univ China
Fudan Univ China
Indian Inst Sci India
Indian Inst Tech – Kharagpur
Jilin Univ China
Lanzhou Univ China
Nankai Univ China
Shandong Univ China
Tianjin Univ China
Zhongshan Univ China

Although they are not in the MBA provision but Keep in mind that these universities are in developing countries. They are better than majority universities in the UK and US.
Well, that may be closer to the truth than the Government would wish to admit. Quite apart from the English requirement, it's worth noting that, of all the business schools in the MBA provision, only one is in a developing country, and that is neither in India nor in Pakistan. I think one can take the MBA provision as a less-than-subtle indication of the sort of people they might seek to attract.
quote]
Pantaiema

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Post by UKbound » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:26 pm

Ceibs is #11,but it's the only top 100 university for MBA's on your list.

The number of universities that you can be granted the HSMP waiver for is meant to represent the top 50. Ceibs is included in the provision.

global gypsy
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Post by global gypsy » Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:45 pm

Couple of observations on this topic:

1. Re: Victoria's point that employers should be the ones to decide on whom they wish to employ based on their English skills, you are missing one crucial point here: employers can interview these people only after they have come in to the country in the first place. So the government does need to use language criteria for immigration after all, yes? Maybe some of us may feel they are unfair, but criteria the govt must use.

2. When people complain the Aussies and Kiwis are gaining an unfair advantage on the language front, they seem to forget that these countries are included with the UK for the salary criteria, which means someone in NZ needs to make close to NZ$110,000 to get the max points for salary. At the same time, the salary requirements for someone from India are much lower to attain the same points. Would you claim this amounts to discrimination against Kiwis (and Aussies)?

As Gordon points out, no system can be absolutely perfect.
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VictoriaS
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Post by VictoriaS » Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:04 pm

Your second point is valid, and I think that the earnings criteria is fair in that respect - at the moment it is US nationals who are suffering the most, as the weak dollar has resulted in many people who would have qualified six months ago now finding that they don't.

As for the language test - well, I am a fan of the idea that someone should be allowed to come to the UK, and then if they can't get a job they are free to return home again. If people were made aware of how hard it is to get jobs without language skills then this would be another way for the scheme to be self policing. As it is, even if I accept the point that the government need to restrict, this doesn't mean that it must be as high a restriction as only those with IELTS level 8!!!

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global gypsy
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Post by global gypsy » Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:28 pm

Victoria - not sure I agree with you.

Why do you restrict your 'laissez-faire' approach to just the language criterion? Why not let in anyone in (regardless of education, work background etc.) and let them seek a job here in the open market? The problem with this is that those who can't find jobs may not go back to their home countries, they may end up in ghettos and/or resort to crime. And this is precisely what a well-planned immigration policy is supposed to prevent.

I don't see why language criterion is different from other criteria such as work experience and education.
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VictoriaS
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Post by VictoriaS » Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:52 pm

global gypsy wrote:Victoria - not sure I agree with you.

Why do you restrict your 'laissez-faire' approach to just the language criterion? Why not let in anyone in (regardless of education, work background etc.) and let them seek a job here in the open market? The problem with this is that those who can't find jobs may not go back to their home countries, they may end up in ghettos and/or resort to crime. And this is precisely what a well-planned immigration policy is supposed to prevent.

I don't see why language criterion is different from other criteria such as work experience and education.
In an ideal world I wouldn't restrict it. And how would we know what a well planned immigration policy is supposed to prevent? We haven't had one for decades.

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pantaiema
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Post by pantaiema » Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:19 pm

U probably have missed the point. The problem here is that the language criterion for tier 1 IELTS is 8.0 (by aspiration) is ridiculously high for the people which come from non English speaking countries. This offer unfair advantage to people come from English speaking countries.

FYI:
1. Australia Skilled Immigration Points Calculator
Minimum Requirement:
“You must be at least at "competent" English to be eligible to apply for occupations other than trade occupations. You should have a high enough level of English that would enable you to score at least a "6" on all four components of the IELTS (International English Language Testing System) examination. However, if your nominated occupation is a trade occupation, a score of "5" (vocational) will suffice.
Source: http://www.workpermit.com/australia/poi ... ulator.htm

2. New Zealand Visa Requirements: Skilled Migrant
Proof of English language ability must be shown where English is not the primary language of the applicant, including:
Applicants must be able to reach an overall band score of at least 6.5 in the International English Language Testing System (IELTS) General or Academic Module
Source: http://www.spammer.com/newzealand/sk ... grant.aspx

3. To become NHS doctor: IELTS 7.0. NHS nurse IELST 7.0.

4. Many People who by definition should be included in tier 1 have reached a reasonable level of English proficiency to work in the UK but can not meet this criteria. Extreme example:: Japanese Nobel Prize winner, other examples: NHS doctors, Science professor from countries like Korea, China, Japan with reasonable amount of publications in int. journals.

5. In many hipgly skilled Jobs, There is no evidence toi suggest that people having IELTS of 8.0 will perform better in the Job with people having (Say IELTS 7.0). Just see for instance highly skilled people working in Financial banking, IT, engineering, science.

6. Many people in this forum do not aware how the score IELTS 8.0 means because they never sit for IELTS. They juts use: Letter from university.
A teacher and native English speaking person in this forum claimed that he could discern people who have achieved this standard. In fact he himselves never sit for IELTS, he is not an IELTS examiner either. How come this person could appreciate how IELTS 8.0 mean. This is an example how people might not aware what 8.0 mean ?


global gypsy wrote: I don't see why language criterion is different from other criteria such as work experience and education.
Pantaiema

global gypsy
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Post by global gypsy » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:19 pm

Pantaiema - my comment was not about the 8.0 vs 6.0 score on IELTS; it was more a statement that it's quite valid to include language in the selection criteria for immigration.
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gordon
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Post by gordon » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:42 pm

pantaiema wrote:A teacher and native English speaking person in this forum claimed that he could discern people who have achieved this standard. In fact he himselves never sit for IELTS, he is not an IELTS examiner either. How come this person could appreciate how IELTS 8.0 mean. This is an example how people might not aware what 8.0 mean ?
University lecturers can discern differences between English-language proficiency test scores because they review overseas students' applications, see the test scores, teach the admitted students in their classes and seminars, mark the students' essays and examinations, and conduct their vivas. As they are able to relate test scores to performance for many foreign students, one could quite reasonably argue that they have, at the very least, an equal claim on knowledge of the outward or functional value of such tests, compared to examinees who merely sit the tests once or twice.

global gypsy
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Post by global gypsy » Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:18 pm

I feel the IELTS (or another equivalent) test should be made mandatory for ALL applicants, regardless of where they did their studies. This will ensure a standard measure of comparison. I've taught in US universities in the business program, and used to be shocked to read through some of the stuff that students would write. And these were 'native' American students, mind you.
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gordon
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Post by gordon » Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:41 pm

Well, that much is certainly true. Depending where one goes (in the US and UK), there can be some variance in English proficiency even among the native speakers ! But in principle of equity, yes, it would make sense for all migrants to sit the exam; somehow I don't think that will happen here. Australia, however, have taken an interesting alternate approach: native English speakers may take the IELTS to garner more points; it makes a curious comparison with HSMP's binary approach to language.

Tibu
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IELTS query

Post by Tibu » Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:48 pm

I am planning to Write IELTS for Applying for HSMP for Jan 08.
so while applying IELTS i have come accross a section in form
where the test results needs to be informed or not....
i am really confused what i should be filling out the address with ...
Should i be filling in this fields. Can any one suggest.

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Post by avjones » Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:35 pm

pantaiema wrote:
Amanda, you probably compare yourselves with the foreign NHS doctors. You are barrister and native speaker therefore I think you should not compare it with foreign NHS doctor.
I don't think "fair" is what the system is for, to be honest. It's designed to benefit the UK, that's the whole point of it.

I do think that there is a problem with some (not all, of course) NHS doctors for whom English is a second language.
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

global gypsy
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Post by global gypsy » Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:15 pm

>>I do think that there is a problem with some (not all, of course) NHS doctors for whom English is a second language.<<

I am sure you are referring to some of those docs from Europe?
:lol:
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global gypsy
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Post by global gypsy » Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:21 pm

Tibu - I assume you are referring to the page where they provide space for Names and addresses of institutions to whom you want the IELTS scores to be sent directly. This is relevant for e.g. an institution that you are applying to have asked for the scores already. Keep in mind that IELTS is used for univ applications etc. in addition to for immigration.

In your case you can leave this page blank.
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Tibu
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thanks man..

Post by Tibu » Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:08 pm

thanks for the info.
i have done as same.

pantaiema
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Re: IELTS query

Post by pantaiema » Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:44 pm

No U do not need to.
If U r studying in prestigious school they require IELTS test centre (but in reality they are not very strict about this), to send the result directly to tyhe school. REason: more secure and trusted.

The HO/HSMP do not require this, U could send the score bu yourselves.
Tibu wrote:I am planning to Write IELTS for Applying for HSMP for Jan 08.
so while applying IELTS i have come accross a section in form
where the test results needs to be informed or not....
i am really confused what i should be filling out the address with ...
Should i be filling in this fields. Can any one suggest.
Pantaiema

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