Child's Nationality status after Both parents got BC

[ric1982]

Hi,

We have a 2 year old child who was Born in UK as Indian Citizen (With Right of Abode sticker on Indian Passport). At that time only one parent was BC. Now both of parents got BC. Could someone please let us know the child's Nationality status? The confusion is because of no clarity from the Indian embassy website and their staff.

Some says because both parents got BC the child looses Indian nationality while some says the child has both Indian and British nationality because he's minor (despite India dont allow dual citizenship).

What will happen if we apply for British Passport for the child. (Just to note that the Child does not yet have British passport.)

Also for travelling for few days with in Europe (holidays) do we need Shangun visa for our child? (I think he does but I might be wrong). Note that child has Indian Passport with Right of Abode sticker on it.

Any help is much appreciated.

Thanks,

[vinny]

Child is automatically British, as the CoE-RoA confirms.

I think child without a British passport may need a Schengen Visa.

See also Are you a minor, Indian by descent and also foreign citizen?

You may or may not be correct about child losing Indian nationality when both parents subsequently have British citizenship. I don't know. Do double check this.

[ric1982]

You may or may not be correct about child losing Indian nationality when both parents subsequently have British citizenship. I don't know. Do double check this.

Thanks Vinny, I can check on this but with whom!! This is the problem with Indian embassy they are not very helpful.

[ouflak1]

Hi,

We have a 2 year old child who was Born in UK as Indian Citizen (With Right of Abode sticker on Indian Passport). At that time only one parent was BC. Now both of parents got BC. Could someone please let us know the child's Nationality status? The confusion is because of no clarity from the Indian embassy website and their staff.

Some says because both parents got BC the child looses Indian nationality while some says the child has both Indian and British nationality because he's minor (despite India dont allow dual citizenship).

What will happen if we apply for British Passport for the child. (Just to note that the Child does not yet have British passport.)

Also for travelling for few days with in Europe (holidays) do we need Shangun visa for our child? (I think he does but I might be wrong). Note that child has Indian Passport with Right of Abode sticker on it.

Any help is much appreciated.

Thanks,

You can actually find the information. You just have to dig and dig and dig. Your child, in the eyes of India, still has Indian citizenship, and will continue to hold that citizenship until either his parents exercise any actions of citizenship for the child or he himself exercises actions of any other citizenship for himself. Since you have gotten him a passport recently, I believe you were made to sign a sworn statement saying that you had not already taken any actions to have that child exercise any other form of citizenship. Those actions include getting the child passport of another country, or he himself signing up for military service that is only available to citizens or running for political offices that are only available to citizens, etc.... As long as none of that happens, no matter what occurs with regards to the citizenship of his parents, he can claim to hold Indian citizenship and that claim will be honored by India.

He will need a Schengen Visa.

There is a nice summary here. You have to kind of piece things together, but it is clear once you do.

[ric1982]

Thanks,

That clarifies it much better.

Also have another question related to the same. When we apply for renewal of child's indian passport the Indian Embassy asks for parents passport/nationality details. Does it means that because now both parents have BC, we cant apply for further renewal of Indian passport for child?

[ouflak1]

Thanks,

That clarifies it much better.

Also have another question related to the same. When we apply for renewal of child's indian passport the Indian Embassy asks for parents passport/nationality details. Does it means that because now both parents have BC, we cant apply for further renewal of Indian passport for child?

The child's citizenship is his own. You will have to apply for his further passports according to the guidelines that are the same for all minors irrespective of their parent's citizenship. Note that since they are asking for these details, they may require you to again sign a sworn statement that you have not taken any actions on behalf of the child exercising any other citizenship.

[ric1982]

Thanks,

That clarifies it much better.

Also have another question related to the same. When we apply for renewal of child's indian passport the Indian Embassy asks for parents passport/nationality details. Does it means that because now both parents have BC, we cant apply for further renewal of Indian passport for child?

The child's citizenship is his own. You will have to apply for his further passports according to the guidelines that are the same for all minors irrespective of their parent's citizenship. Note that since they are asking for these details, they may require you to again sign a sworn statement that you have not taken any actions on behalf of the child exercising any other citizenship.

Aah then does it mean that if we apply for his British passport then we are "taking action on behalf of the child exercising British Citizenship"? or apply for British passport is irrelevant in this case?

[ouflak1]

Thanks,

That clarifies it much better.

Also have another question related to the same. When we apply for renewal of child's indian passport the Indian Embassy asks for parents passport/nationality details. Does it means that because now both parents have BC, we cant apply for further renewal of Indian passport for child?

The child's citizenship is his own. You will have to apply for his further passports according to the guidelines that are the same for all minors irrespective of their parent's citizenship. Note that since they are asking for these details, they may require you to again sign a sworn statement that you have not taken any actions on behalf of the child exercising any other citizenship.

Aah then does it mean that if we apply for his British passport then we are "taking action on behalf of the child exercising British Citizenship"?

Yes. If you apply for his British passport, he will, from that moment he acquires that passport, no longer be an Indian citizen as this is clearly exercising an act of another country's citizenship (in this case, the United Kingdom). In fact, in the eyes of India, this is probably the most defining action of exercising citizenship, even if you do it on behalf of your child.

[ric1982]

Many thanks to all of you for all quick response. It does clear things out for us.

Thanks,

[secret.simon]

Also see the rest of this thread.

As the CoE-RoA expressly does not state that the child has got British citizenship (only that he has the Right of Abode in the UK, a domestic status under UK law, not recognised by EU law), the child will need a Schengen visa. However, I believe that as the child is a British & hence EU citizen, the Schengen visa will be issued free of cost.

If he were to travel to the rest of the EU on a regular basis, it may also be worthwhile looking at getting a letter confirming British nationality status, for the purposes of EU law and EU border agencies, not of the UK.

[ouflak1]

Also see the rest of this thread.

From that thread:

Before her 18th birthday;

• She can have only one citizenship and must choose to become either British OR Indian. She can not be both.
  
  If she chooses to become Indian, her British citizenship and ROA ends.

I don't think this is true. British citizenship is not dependent on any other country's citizenship. The only way the child can actually lose the ability to claim British citizenship is to specifically renounce or have it deprived. The child (and eventually adult) can decide never to rely upon it or use it specifically, but cannot lose UK citizenship by simply never claiming it. And interestingly, Indian citizenship law does not require specific renunciation of other potential citizenships. It only requires that the child/adult never exercise any other nationality while exercising Indian nationality.

As the CoE-RoA expressly does not state that the child has got British citizenship (only that he has the Right of Abode in the UK, a domestic status under UK law, not recognised by EU law), the child will need a Schengen visa. However, I believe that as the child is a British & hence EU citizen, the Schengen visa will be issued free of cost.

I couldn't find any information of a free Schengen visa. Link?

If he were to travel to the rest of the EU on a regular basis, it may also be worthwhile looking at getting a letter confirming British nationality status, for the purposes of EU law and EU border agencies, not of the UK.

The problem here is that while the UK does explicitly differentiate between the concept of a 'citizen' and a 'national', India does not. Indeed, only a few dozen countries around the world have such explicit relationships defined. The government of India could easily define the act of obtaining a letter confirming British Nationality as an act exercising British citizenship.

[secret.simon]

British citizenship is not dependent on any other country's citizenship. The only way the child can actually lose the ability to claim British citizenship is to specifically renounce or have it deprived. The child (and eventually adult) can decide never to rely upon it or use it specifically, but cannot lose UK citizenship by simply never claiming it.

Agreed.

And interestingly, Indian citizenship law does not require specific renunciation of other potential citizenships. It only requires that the child/adult never exercise any other nationality while exercising Indian nationality.

Section 4(1A) of the (Indian) Citizenship Act 1955 states:

(1A) A minor who is a citizen of India by virtue of his [sic] section and is also a citizen of any other country shall cease to be a citizen of India if he does not renounce the citizenship or nationality of another country within six months of attaining full age.

Also, 6.5.

I couldn't find any information of a free Schengen visa. Link?

The child is an EU citizen by virtue of their British citizenship. As family members of EU citizens are entitled to a free visa to any other country within the EU (Article 5, Section 2 of Directive 2004/38/EC), I would presume that an EU citizen would be entitled to the same.

Another way of looking at it is that the child can get a free Schengen visa on the basis of his relationship to his parents, who are both UK & therefore EU citizens.

To be absolutely correct, the child does not need even a Schengen visa, just proof of their UK citizenship.

The problem here is that while the UK does explicitly differentiate between the concept of a 'citizen' and a 'national', India does not.

India does too, though it is by judicial decisions and case law rather than statute (see Comment (ii) at the end of Section 2 of this rather shabby scan of the Act).

The government of India could easily define the act of obtaining a letter confirming British Nationality as an act exercising British citizenship.

True, but to the best of my knowledge, it hasn't yet, as such a letter is not a travel document. But it can certainly help with the travel to the rest of the EU.

[ouflak1]

And interestingly, Indian citizenship law does not require specific renunciation of other potential citizenships. It only requires that the child/adult never exercise any other nationality while exercising Indian nationality.

Section 4(1A) of the (Indian) Citizenship Act 1955 states:

(1A) A minor who is a citizen of India by virtue of his [sic] section and is also a citizen of any other country shall cease to be a citizen of India if he does not renounce the citizenship or nationality of another country within six months of attaining full age.
Also, 6.5.

Don't know how I missed that as I was reading from the very same document earlier!

I couldn't find any information of a free Schengen visa. Link?

The child is an EU citizen by virtue of their British citizenship. As family members of EU citizens are entitled to a free visa to any other country within the EU (Article 5, Section 2 of Directive 2004/38/EC), I would presume that an EU citizen would be entitled to the same.

Another way of looking at it is that the child can get a free Schengen visa on the basis of his relationship to his parents, who are both UK & therefore EU citizens.

To be absolutely correct, the child does not need even a Schengen visa, just proof of their UK citizenship.

The instant that child, or the parents on the child's behalf, tries to demonstrate that proof of UK Citizenship, that child is no longer an Indian citizen. Atleast by my very strict reading of the law. Perhaps India would in reality allow some obvious and reasonable concessions. Afterall, they surely see enough ROA's in passports on a constant basis I would think.

The problem here is that while the UK does explicitly differentiate between the concept of a 'citizen' and a 'national', India does not.

India does too, though it is by judicial decisions and case law rather than statute (see Comment (ii) at the end of Section 2 of this rather shabby scan of the Act).

[Section 2] 4(ii) only states that those terms (nationality and citizenship) should not be used in interchangeably. There is no designation for what an Indian National is versus an India Citizen (such as does specifically exist for the UK, USA, France, et al...). I do not believe such a distinction exists for India. I don't mind being proven wrong as it would be very interesting if, somewhere in the obscure depths of Indian law, there was (or could be) such a class of people, even it was only theoretical.

The government of India could easily define the act of obtaining a letter confirming British Nationality as an act exercising British citizenship.

True, but to the best of my knowledge, it hasn't yet, as such a letter is not a travel document. But it can certainly help with the travel to the rest of the EU.

I wonder how many people have really battled with India over this. I am not under the impression that this is a popular law (or all that particularly unpopular). It would be interesting to see how far India would be willing to go to deny citizenship to those who by so many measures really would qualify for such.

[secret.simon]

And interestingly, Indian citizenship law does not require specific renunciation of other potential citizenships. It only requires that the child/adult never exercise any other nationality while exercising Indian nationality.

Section 4(1A) of the (Indian) Citizenship Act 1955 states:

(1A) A minor who is a citizen of India by virtue of his [sic] section and is also a citizen of any other country shall cease to be a citizen of India if he does not renounce the citizenship or nationality of another country within six months of attaining full age.
Also, 6.5.

Don't know how I missed that as I was reading from the very same document earlier!

My interpretation is that likely we are both correct. The section that I highlighted only applies to children born abroad who have inherited Indian citizenship. In case of the UK, it would be primarily children born in the UK to an Indian parent holding ILR. Such children must elect which citizenship they wish to keep for the rest of their lives at the age of 18 (or less if they are female and married at a younger age).

But that provision does not seem to apply to children born to a couple, one of whom is a British citizen and the other an Indian citizen, in India, as a child thus born would be an Indian citizen by birth and not by descent. I believe that your interpretation would be correct in that case.

I couldn't find any information of a free Schengen visa. Link?

The child is an EU citizen by virtue of their British citizenship. As family members of EU citizens are entitled to a free visa to any other country within the EU (Article 5, Section 2 of Directive 2004/38/EC), I would presume that an EU citizen would be entitled to the same.

Another way of looking at it is that the child can get a free Schengen visa on the basis of his relationship to his parents, who are both UK & therefore EU citizens.

To be absolutely correct, the child does not need even a Schengen visa, just proof of their UK citizenship.

The instant that child, or the parents on the child's behalf, tries to demonstrate that proof of UK Citizenship, that child is no longer an Indian citizen. Atleast by my very strict reading of the law. Perhaps India would in reality allow some obvious and reasonable concessions. Afterall, they surely see enough ROA's in passports on a constant basis I would think.

The RoA only states that the child has the right of abode in the UK, not that the child has British citizenship. That is precisely why it is acceptable to the Indian authorities.

In this instance, the child can get a free Schengen visa on the basis of his parents's UK/EU citizenship. Indeed,in theory, the child can travel without a visa within the EU if he is accompanying one of his parents purely on the basis of their relationship. They will of course need his birth certificate.