5 year article 10 visa, using to work in another country?

[tebee]

My non-eu wife has a 5 year article 10 residence card as family of EU citizen for France. Unfortunately her profession is regulated here and her qualifications not recognized, so although she has the right to work, she is effectively limited to unskilled jobs .

However there are other EU countries she could work professionally in and although we have decided it would be impractical to move permanently, she has been talking to an agency about the possibility of doing short term ( circa 3 months) contracts there.

If these counties are in the Schengen area, would she need a local RC/visa there or can she use her existing one ? I could quite happily accompany her as my work in internet based, so I can be a digital nomad and would be quite happy to see more of europe.

If she does need to get a local RC/visa for where she is working, can she still retain her French one ? - she is not far off obtaining permanent residency here. We would be returning to the French base between contracts.

The agency seem totally confused about our situation, but I guess it may not be a common one.

[ALKB]

My non-eu wife has a 5 year article 10 residence card as family of EU citizen for France. Unfortunately her profession is regulated here and her qualifications not recognized, so although she has the right to work, she is effectively limited to unskilled jobs .

However there are other EU countries she could work professionally in and although we have decided it would be impractical to move permanently, she has been talking to an agency about the possibility of doing short term ( circa 3 months) contracts there.

If these counties are in the Schengen area, would she need a local RC/visa there or can she use her existing one ? I could quite happily accompany her as my work in internet based, so I can be a digital nomad and would be quite happy to see more of europe.

If she does need to get a local RC/visa for where she is working, can she still retain her French one ? - she is not far off obtaining permanent residency here. We would be returning to the French base between contracts.

The agency seem totally confused about our situation, but I guess it may not be a common one.

She can visit for up to 90 days but not work.

Is the agency located in France?

[tebee]

No the agency is in Poland, though Chinese run!

Now I thought she did have the absolute right to work anywhere within the EU as the Spouse of an EU citizen exercising treaty rights? Certainly on both visits to the UK so far we have got a stamp that allows her to work for up to 6 months.

[ALKB]

No the agency is in Poland, though Chinese run!

Now I thought she did have the absolute right to work anywhere within the EU as the Spouse of an EU citizen exercising treaty rights? Certainly on both visits to the UK so far we have got a stamp that allows her to work for up to 6 months.

Her rights to work under EU law depend on you (her EU spouse) exercising treaty rights in THAT country, as you are doing in France.

When going visiting the UK, she basically gets an EEA family permit on arrival under Surinder Singh rules, as you are exercising treaty rights in another non-UK EEA country because you are a UK citizen. As you are not a Polish citizen returning to Poland after exercising treaty rights elsewhere, this does not apply to Poland.

Also when living and working in Poland, both you and her have to comply with local registration, tax and labour laws, which in case of Poland I have no idea about.

Surely the Polish agency would have to provide proof of her eligibility to work to the Polish authorities when employing a non-EEA foreigner?

How close is she to permanent residence?

Check with the authorities how long she can stay outside of France before she loses her PR. In Germany it's 6 months for instance (if longer absence was not pre-arranged with the alien department), in the UK it's 2 years.

When is she eligible to apply for French citizenship? After that she'd be free of all of those hassles.

[liksah]

She would most likely need to get a RC to work in Poland. (this should be really easy though because you can easily prove you are exercising treaty rights there.., it may take a few months to acquire though)

I don't think you can juggle the two situations though because I would imagine her French residence duration would get terminated if you officially 'moved' to Poland. If she's almost got permanent residence in France (and this is something she wants..) then you should probably suck it up for a little longer.

You could 'visit' for 90/180 days but without an RC it's unlikely that any formal employer will take her on even though technically she has the right to work if you're exercising treaty rights. It seems like a catch-22 kind of situation on that front. Has right to work. Needs RC. Can get RC. But French residency counter stops/resets.

[ALKB]

She would most likely need to get a RC to work in Poland. (this should be really easy though because you can easily prove you are exercising treaty rights there.., it may take a few months to acquire though)

I don't think you can juggle the two situations though because I would imagine her French residence duration would get terminated if you officially 'moved' to Poland. If she's almost got permanent residence in France (and this is something she wants..) then you should probably suck it up for a little longer.

You could 'visit' for 90/180 days but without an RC it's unlikely that any formal employer will take her on even though technically she has the right to work if you're exercising treaty rights. It seems like a catch-22 kind of situation on that front. Has right to work. Needs RC. Can get RC. But French residency counter stops/resets.

The OP said they don't want to move permanently but only spend 3 months at a time in Poland.

How would he exercise treaty rights working remotely for a non-Polish company?

They might be able to apply as self-sufficient through his French employment but then there is CS to consider and also Polish income tax and possibly contributions to social systems on his income while he is living in Poland.

[tebee]

My spouses right to reside with me is NOT dependent on my exercising treaty rights in that country, rather it depends on the fact that I have exercised treaty rights in a previous country.

Surinder Singh, for instance, depends on me exercising treaty rights in another EU country, not in the UK on my return.

In http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/re ... dex_en.htm
it states

Equal treatment

During their stay in your new country, your spouse, (grand)children and (grand)parents should be treated as nationals of the country, notably as regards access to employment, pay, benefits facilitating access to work, enrolment in schools, etc.

Which which is saying she does have the right to work - but, of course it may be hard to get employers to accept without the right paperwork.

Although the Agency is in Poland the work is holiday, sickness and maternity replacement and could potentially be in any EU country , through Holland, Germany and Switzerland are the most likely.

[ALKB]

My spouses right to reside with me is NOT dependent on my exercising treaty rights in that country, rather it depends on the fact that I have exercised treaty rights in a previous country.

Surinder Singh, for instance, depends on me exercising treaty rights in another EU country, not in the UK on my return.

In http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/re ... dex_en.htm
it states

Equal treatment

During their stay in your new country, your spouse, (grand)children and (grand)parents should be treated as nationals of the country, notably as regards access to employment, pay, benefits facilitating access to work, enrolment in schools, etc.

Which which is saying she does have the right to work - but, of course it may be hard to get employers to accept without the right paperwork.

Although the Agency is in Poland the work is holiday, sickness and maternity replacement and could potentially be in any EU country , through Holland, Germany and Switzerland are the most likely.

Surinder Singh only applies when returning to your country of citizenship after you exercised treaty rights in another EU country.

Which profession is that? Germany and Switzerland are notorious for restricting professions, just as or worse than France.

In any case, this is quite complicated and I will be interested to see whether anybody else replies.

[tebee]

I appreciate Surinder Singh only applies to my home country - what I am pointing out is that her right to live and work there with me after my return derives not from me living and working there, but from the fact that I previously done so in another country.

In this case if I move to a third country, she would instantly get those same rights in that country without me having exercise treaty rights there. As family of an eu citizen she has the same rights as an EU citizen, not some sub-set of them.

She is a Doctor - but of Chinese traditional medicine. The problem with France is it uniquely requires requires you also to have a degree in Western medicine to practice this. In Switzerland for instance her Chinese qualifications are accepted, though as of next year she would need to pass a local test too.

[liksah]

Well, rights or no rights - unfortunately when it comes to things like employing people, employers like to play it safe. Meaning they would most likely ask for an RC. If you can find an employer who is willing to actually read the rules and understand that yes your wife does have the right to work - then you're good to go.

My reasoning is that your wife could move with you for 90 days of stay and have the right to work with no limits regardless of whether you exercise treaty rights (same rights as you). If you stay more than 90 days though then you would need to be exercising treaty rights (this could also mean just being self sufficient which pretty much means - having enough money in the bank + health insurance) but you would need to prove this somehow to get her an RC. So what I understand is that up to 90 days the rights are not a subset but beyond 90 days it seems like they must be 'derived' off you. Weird, right? Is my reasoning incorrect?

Your situation and what you're planning to do sounds too complex so I would much rather suggest that you speak to an experienced attorney about this kind of stuff.

Also, can't she freelance Chinese medicine work (provided it's not regulated in said country)? Or is there not enough demand/a viable platform? (I mean like classifieds, craigslist, that kind of stuff?)

[tebee]

That was pretty much my reasoning - as regards the +90 days it says - Those who are employed or self-employed do not need to meet any other conditions. It doesn't say you need to be employed by a business in that country - you could be posted there by a company in your home country for instance.

I wonder that if you were to return home for a short while at the end of three months does this reset the clock?

But as you say all of this may be irrelevant if you can't persuade an employer that you do have these rights. On the other hand it might take more than 3 months for the new country to process the paperwork anyway.

The problem with France is it is effectively illegal to practice Chinese medicine, so you can't advertise anywhere - as in €5000 fine if they catch you doing it. There is apparently an underground network in Paris advertised by word of mouth only, but as someone who needs a visa to live in the country, she doesn't want to get involved with that.

[syomfa]

Hello Tebee,

I recently wanted to register myself in Poland as a self sufficient EU citizen. The process was simple in terms of documents required - but then they invited me for an interview - they wanted to know if I will really live in Poland, how long I will live etc. (The interview did not happen because I had to abort even before)

I also asked them about registering a family member. They said it will heavily depend on where you pay your income tax, and how long you intend to live in Poland.

In your particular case - your wife can go work in different EU countries up to 3 months, and then return home, whether you accompany her or not. Instead of getting confused or giving others opportunity to be confused, just present her article 10 card as the work permit without restrictions (and if someone asks, only then present 2008 38 EC printout to them - brief and straight without hesitation).

An important point to keep in mind is where she will pay her income tax. In order to keep it easy to understand, she can pay her taxes in France.

I hope this information solves your problem.


Would you like to tell in some detail, how she initially came to EU? was it under 2008 38 EU? if yes, from which embassy and how they responded to 2008 38 EU?

[tebee]

Under directive 2004/38/EU - 2008/38/EU seems to be about animal feedstuffs ?

Got a short term schengen visa from the French Embassy in Bangkok then applied for her article 10 card ( carte du Sejour ) when she arrived here. Took almost a year for them to process.

My opinion was that although it's a French card, it's issued under EU legislation and should be valid throughout Europe. It lets her exercise toutes activites professionnelles - the agency seemed unsure, which is why I asked here. Though I guess if we can't convince them and their clients we have a very hollow victory.

I think your advice is good, will have to see if they accept it - I emailed a scan of the card to the agency, if they refuse, I guess will have to see what solvit says.

She's disappearing off to Thailand for a few weeks now - working for the ministry of health there, organising the graduation exams for the next batch of TCM doctors - these international jet setters !

[liksah]

In your particular case - your wife can go work in different EU countries up to 3 months, and then return home, whether you accompany her or not.

Can a person holding a family member of an EU citizen residence card:
1. Travel without their spouse in the Schengen reason for up to 90 days? (I think, yes?)
2. Work in another country without their spouse? (Not sure about this since the right to work is supposed to be derived.. because you need to be a family unit..)

[syomfa]

Hi Likesh,

The answer to your first question is definitely YES.

The answer to your second question, I think contrary to what I said earlier, you are right. The spouse can work in another country ONLY if the EU citizen accompanies her there. For the first three months, no paper work will be needed. After that, a residence card from that country.