Life is just about to get a lot tougher for illegal workers!

[John]

A new webpage issued today gives lots of detail .... click here.

A penalty up to £10000 for employers employing illegal workers ..... and that increases to an unlimited fine and prison if they knowingly employ illegal workers. Which surely means that the penalties of up to £10000 are for when the employer happens to employ illegal workers, but is not aware, because they failed to check, that the workers are illegal. Ouch!

[olisun]

time for everybody to present their passports to the HR

[jimquk]

Perhaps time also for those legally present in the country like refused asylum-seekers to be given permission to work?

[INSIDER]

If you are a refused asylum seeker how can you be here legally?

[kg1983]

lol i wish. I can prove to the HO that i can never be a burden on this society, will contribute positively and have been represented in the HO for past 7 years, they still wont give me a stamp.

[OL7MAX]

Don't miss the ID cards by the back door.

First, impose them on the immigrant workforce who can't really protest. Once we've played fast and loose with the personal data of the visa victims we can roll it out to the rest of the UK. Perhaps moving on to benefit claimants next.

Eventually, all your ID are belong to us.

Double sided DVDs, anyone?

[Siggi]

So if you are ilegal, go home!

[VictoriaS]

If you are a refused asylum seeker how can you be here legally?

A refused asylum seeker may be awaiting an appeal hearing, or awaiting documents which will allow him to leave the UK.

I agree totally,Jim. The removal of the right to work for asylum seekers was a shameful thing, and the main reason why I could never bring myself to vote for this Labour government.


Victoria

[OL7MAX]

As an employer my bet is that I'll be paying more and more for government incompetence on immigration. Just like my accountant bill is inflated to administer convoluted and senseless revenue/tax legislation. Just like I pay my security company for a higher level of monitoring to make up for police incompetence (they don't investigate break-ins at business premises unless you have a CCTV video). I've a lot more examples.

Somehow I don't believe that rhetoric about it going to be easier than ever for employers to do checks. It won't be. Call it a hunch. Call it experience. It won't be easier for employers to follow the law but there will still be a higher financial cost for this claimed ease and the penalties for non-compliance will still go up.

This lot are morally corrupt.

[John]

Somehow I don't believe that rhetoric about it going to be easier than ever for employers to do checks. It won't be.

Not disagreeing with that. But the point is this. There are many employers who currently don't bother doing checks at all, or don't check all their employees. Those are the employers that the Government are really setting out to catch ... those making absolutely no effort at all at present.

So let's face it, for the majority of the population, well able to supply one document from List 1, such as a passport, the checks are very easy to do.

[OL7MAX]

John, my grouse isn't about which businesses are targeted but it's about which businesses are affected. Are you saying that if I don't step up my vigilance I'll still be eligible for the old penalties for employing people without permits?

So let's face it, for the majority of the population, well able to supply one document from List 1, such as a passport

My HR staff are no experts at telling a forged British passport from a real one - let alone Italian or Romanian. Reading all this BS about making it easy for employers... is the government going to take full responsibility for doing a search on a potential employee and giving me a Yea or Nay? Why not? Not even for a small fee?

Why is the onus on employers at all? If you're the experts at telling who's legal and who's not then do the searches for us and let us off all responsibility in the matter. You have a list of all British passport holders and biometrics for all non-British permit holders. So, it's a lot easier for you to do the searching. Wealth creators are not Brussel Sprouts (mandarins) and are better employed creating employment. Oh, hold on! No even the Sprouts can't get it right - they employ illegal cleaners and security staff and probably lots more!

Notice how thin the "Press Release" is on what the government is actually going to do to make it easier to check employees. Zilch!

[Dawie]

*Yawn* yet more hot air rhetoric from the Home Office, blah blah blah. Wake me up when they say something sensical...

[John]

My HR staff are no experts at telling a forged British passport from a real one - let alone Italian or Romanian.

Accepted, and they do not need to be. But they do need to have records that include extracts from the passport that is provided, and in the case of the Romanian, records of what gives that Romanian the legal ability to work in the UK.

There are many employers .... many paying cash-in-hand wages .... to restaurant workers etc etc ..... who do absolutely no checks at all. Those are the ones who will find life a lot tougher in the future.

There is already legislation on the Stature Book about all this. What is new is the issuing of penalty notices ..... much easier than taking the employer to Court.

[VictoriaS]

I don't have a massive amoutn of sympathy for employers in this situation, as it is quite easy to do checks.

When the rules started getting harsher, my dad did an immigration audit for his company. He asked everyone to come in to see him with their passports and any other relevant documentation, and checked a) UK citizenship b) EU citizenship c) A8 citizenship with worker registration c) non-EEA passports with ILR or ILE stamped on them. There were few which he wasn't sure about, so an hour in the pub with me checking them out not only got them sorted but meant that he knows what to do re: new staff.

Althoguh employers are not expected to be immigration consultants, checking passports and visas is not rocket science.

If someone has a forged passport, then the employer is not going to be liable, as long as it can be showed that he has made all reasonable attempts to ascertain legitimacy. So, if he has seen a British passport, ideally taken a photocopy and put that in a personel file, that is enough for him to be in the clear.

Of course, if anyone would like me to do an audit for them, please let me know! My fees are significantly cheaper than the fine!


Victoria

[vin123]

Good to see that there are new measures in place.

my grouse isn't about which businesses are targeted but it's about which businesses are affected.

My HR staff are no experts at telling a forged British passport from a real one - let alone Italian or Romanian. Reading all this BS about making it easy for employers... is the government going to take full responsibility for doing a search on a potential employee and giving me a Yea or Nay? Why not? Not even for a small fee?

Please bear in mind, this is not a legislation in place allowing employers to check forged passports of their employees.
Compliance is something that does not makes businesses "affected", rather, this is something for them to "ensure".
Or in other words, non of these measures introduced will technically become a burden if the employer was "compliance minded" when they started-up the business.
General truth is, that most immigrant run small businesses shove 'good practices' in their waste bin and employ illegal immigrants to multiply the profit short term. That is a fact, well, but soon going to be a thing of the past.

[VictoriaS]

I'm not sur ethat it is 'most' but it is a lot. How many people have we seen on these boards who want to apply for HSMP but are worried because they are not being paid the amount that the work permit says they should be? And how often in the past have we seen people being employed on TWES permits instead of full work permits because it gives the empoyer an excuse to pay less? It is this which must be stopped - althought I don't think that this government really have the welfare of the immigrant in mind when they bring these measures in.


Victoria

[Dawie]

All of this legislation does not change the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of people illegally in the UK who still need to earn a living.

Tighter restrictions on illegal working simply means that those illegal immigrants who were able to find work as cleaners or construction workers, albeit illegally, will now have to turn more nefarious means in order to survive.

Would you rather have an illegal immigrant cleaning your office or working as a prostitute? Or perhaps robbing banks or working in criminal gangs? Think about it.

The Home Office seems more concerned with treating the symptoms instead of concentrating on the cure.

[vin123]

Thats right. End of the day, Govt sees the effectivness of these measures as another cash cow feeding itself into the treasury. That is when the employers pay tax & NI legit for their employees/staff rather than employing someone illegally as a 'cash in hand' employee and writing it off as operational expenses.

I don't think that this government really have the welfare of the immigrant in mind when they bring these measures in.
Victoria

[John]

We should not overlook the fact that the Government has significantly toughened up the proposal as it progressed. The idea, related to Civil Penalties, was a maximum of £2000. And then a few months ago, they published another consultation paper, indicating that they were thinking about a maximum of either £5000 or £10000, instead of the previous idea of a maximum of £2000.

And now we learn of the firm proposal ..... maximum penalty of £10000! Clearly the Government means to get tough .... very tough .... on illegal workers and those employing them.

But as Victoria confirms, most of the checks are easily done. The Government really is out to catch those who continue to make no checks.

[VictoriaS]

Dawie, I absolutely agree with you.

Which is why the government should be looking at a scheme to regularise illegal immigrants, or at least give them the right to work while a repatriation scheme is being worked out, but at the same time prosecuting more gangmasters / brothel keepers / cowboy builders / sweatshop owners who put the lives of immigrants at risk on a daily basis.

Victoria

[vin123]

Right, but the percentage of people who will resort to the below will be far less when compared to those who would plan to leave the country for good reasons.
More over, this would ring a bell to all those future immigrants contemplating on illegal stay, follow and model as predecessors by the tried and tested 'schemes' set by their gurus to get away with it.

Would you rather have an illegal immigrant cleaning your office or working as a prostitute? Or perhaps robbing banks or working in criminal gangs? Think about it.

[Dawie]

Right, but the percentage of people who will resort to the below will be far less when compared to those who would plan to leave the country for good reasons.
More over, this would ring a bell to all those future immigrants contemplating on illegal stay and follow and model their predecessors tried and tested 'schemes'.

Would you rather have an illegal immigrant cleaning your office or working as a prostitute? Or perhaps robbing banks or working in criminal gangs? Think about it.

I think it's naive to think that stricter enforcement of illegal working in the UK would prevent even a single illegal immigrant from coming over here. Nor would it motivate anyone to just simply pack up their bags and leave!

[vin123]

Agreed - it will be stupid to think that the system will run at 100% efficiency.
This is what the government is planning, or atleast what it appears to be a of late reality check from their side.

I think it's naive to think that stricter enforcement of illegal working in the UK would prevent even a single illegal immigrant from coming over here. Nor would it motivate anyone to just simply pack up their bags and leave!

[EdgeHillMole]

All of this legislation does not change the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of people illegally in the UK who still need to earn a living.

Tighter restrictions on illegal working simply means that those illegal immigrants who were able to find work as cleaners or construction workers, albeit illegally, will now have to turn more nefarious means in order to survive.

Would you rather have an illegal immigrant cleaning your office or working as a prostitute? Or perhaps robbing banks or working in criminal gangs? Think about it.

The Home Office seems more concerned with treating the symptoms instead of concentrating on the cure.

You have hit the proverbial nail right on the head. I hope sufficient budget has been allocated for police recruitment?

[OL7MAX]

I don't have a massive amoutn of sympathy for employers in this situation, as it is quite easy to do checks. When the rules started getting harsher, my dad did an immigration audit .... There were few which he wasn't sure about, so an hour in the pub with me checking them out not only got them sorted but meant that he knows what to do re: new staff.

It's a good thing that every man on the Clapham omnibus has a daughter in the immigration business. And the guy who does the odd market stall on weekends to make some money for the kids' Christmas pressies. And the full time mum selling a few bits on eBay who needs someone to run the parcels down to the Post Office. And the local newsagent. I bet 90% of them don't even know which countries are in the EU and which ones aren't. But the law applies to them as much as it does to Tesco.

NCP Services, the company quoted in the Press (Gas) Release, has a huge HR department, trains staff on checking legal status, invests a lot in vetting employees before taking them on ... and still finds "very convincing forged documents". And all the rest of us have to do is photocopy a passport? It's a charming naivete (from people probably not in business) that you're safe from negligence if you've got a couple of photocopies. It doesn't work that way. Victoria, can I asked how you ruled out forged docs?

I agree with you that some sort of regularisation is required for the undocumented, if for no other reason than to get their taxes. And, for goodness sakes, let those able-bodied asylum seekers work. It's madness to require them to sit at home on social security when, unlike some British layabouts, they want the dignity of earning their keep.