Life is just about to get a lot tougher for illegal workers!

[avjones]

And all the rest of us have to do is photocopy a passport? It's a charming naivete (from people probably not in business) that you're safe from negligence if you've got a couple of photocopies. It doesn't work that way.

There is a defence under hte current rules of checking and copying documents.

[John]

Amanda, absolutely right! Anyone doubting that should have a good read of this document and in particular look at the table on page 5 of 19.

See all that green in the "FULL" column! In other words, do a full check .... no penalty .... even if it turns out that false but convincing documentation was supplied to the employer.

Again I emphasise that penalties will only be levied on those not carrying out full checks on their employees.

[OL7MAX]

This reminds me of the carousel fraud prevention measures. If I take all reasonable steps to check my suppliers sales invoice and believe it to be in order that is no defence if he later turns out to be a "missing trader". The trick, John, is in the subjective nature of 2.6, 2.8 and others. When they want to look tough/raise revenue they can always pick on a few more businesses.

Why don't the government do the checks - as some do - and then there's no onus on the untrained to "satisfy officials that they've taken the specified steps"?

[VictoriaS]

It's a good thing that every man on the Clapham omnibus has a daughter in the immigration business. And the guy who does the odd market stall on weekends to make some money for the kids' Christmas pressies. And the full time mum selling a few bits on eBay who needs someone to run the parcels down to the Post Office. And the local newsagent. I bet 90% of them don't even know which countries are in the EU and which ones aren't. But the law applies to them as much as it does to Tesco.

Hahaha! Yeah, fair point, but it doesn't take an immigration specialist to look at a passport and see if it is from an EU country.

My dad is a pretty good example of the Man on the Clapham Omnibus actually. He supervises a bunch of people, most of whom aren't British, and he works on the basis that if you can't prove that you are legal he won't give you job. That has to be the approach that the bloke on the market stall has to take.

I get phone calls each week from people saying "I want to employ this girl, this is what her visa says, can I give her a job?" and within 2 minutes I can tell them whether they can or not. That doesn't take specialist skills or a daughter in the business, it takes knowledge of how to use google and a telephone.

Victoria

[OL7MAX]

it takes knowledge of how to use google and a telephone.

It takes knowledge, yes. Knowledge far in excess of what the guy in the market stall possesses. I probably know how to use Google better than you do - I'm an expert on advanced Google searches; and I have several telephones at work and several at home. Plus mobiles. But I'd use an expert to suss a prospective employee.

If someone turns up with a foreign passport the guy in the market stall needs to know if the issuing country is one of the 26 other countries in the EU. The guy in the market stall would be hard pressesd to name ten. (Even I'm not sure if all those nationals can actually work here. I thought Poles could but Romanians couldn't. Or is it the other way round?)

What about countries outside the EU? The market stall guy needs to know that someone from those countries can work with an ILE or ILR. An IR what? You insulting me, mate? Assuming he knows what ILE/ILR stands for does he instinctively know whether it's a card, letter, stamp, or something else? Even assuming he knows it's a stamp, I can get one made at Staples for £3. Are you saying that all an illegal immigrant needs now is a fake Romanian passport - I believe the retail price is £6 each or 2 for £10 - or his own Bangladeshi passport with a £3 rubber stamp? And that if he does that the employer is safe from prosecution and fines? All I can say is LOL.

I can see the gangs rubbing their hands with glee. It's now piss easy to get every ferry stowaway the right papers for employment! All the employer needs to do is photocopy them ... and everyone is safe?!

This is rhetoric. Spin. Hot air. If the government were really serious about reducing illegal immigrants working they'd do the vetting and provide a Yes or No.

[Dawie]

The type of people who willfully employ illegal immigrants are not the type of people to care about these new penalties. They are more than likely involved in other types of activities that carry even heavier penalties anyway.

And how is the government going to enforce this anyway? An employer employing an illegal immigrant is unlikely to keep any records whatsoever of people working illegally for them. Unless enforcement officers actually catch illegal workers red handed working, there's no way to even prove their existence.

The government's suggestion that compulsory identity cards for foreigners will solve this problem is laughable if they do not make identity cards compulsory for British citizens too, which seems less and less likely now. If I was an illegal immigrant stopped in the street by the police and asked for an identity card, I would just say I was a British citizen and that I don't need to have one. Then what?

[Wanderer]

Why not make all immigrants wear a yellow star? It was successfully trialled in Germany in the late thirties with tremendous results and it's only a matter of time before it's tried here.

[OL7MAX]

An employer employing an illegal immigrant is unlikely to keep any records whatsoever of people working illegally for them

Exactly. But now they literally have a get out of jail card. Keep photocopies of fraudulent paperwork and suddenly they are in the clear! So, get a job lot of false papers and if you ever get caught red-handed with illegal workers it'll be up to the government to prove that you knew they were illegal?

If I was an illegal immigrant stopped in the street by the police and asked for an identity card, I would just say I was a British citizen and that I don't need to have one. Then what?

Nice one but you probably do realise that ID cards for immigrants isn't really about ID cards for immigrants. It's to get people used to the ID card idea before they all get one. That's the theory anyway.

Yellow star

Yes, round up all black people - and some brown and yellow ones - and make them all wear stars. That way there'll be no confusion over who's an immigrant and who was born here

[SYH]

An employer employing an illegal immigrant is unlikely to keep any records whatsoever of people working illegally for them

Exactly. But now they literally have a get out of jail card. Keep photocopies of fraudulent paperwork and suddenly they are in the clear! So, get a job lot of false papers and if you ever get caught red-handed with illegal workers it'll be up to the government to prove that you knew they were illegal?

Yellow star

Yes, round up all black people - and some brown and yellow ones - and make them all wear stars. That way there'll be no confusion over who's an immigrant and who was born here

Why round up black people, just round up the white ones, it will be easier to control the rest

[JA13I]

What debate would be complete without I putting my 2 cents in as well?

If someone turns up with a foreign passport the guy in the market stall needs to know if the issuing country is one of the 26 other countries in the EU.

Are you claiming that someone who knows the advanced functions of google and has several phones cannot find out which countries are in the EU? Wow! And to think no one has argued that point.

Knowing the entire countries of the EU is not the requisite to hiring someone. Do not know whether he is eligible to work? Let me check.. or the government is going to come after me with a financial bazooka. So, let me check. That is the basic idea of the law.

If someone was kind ehough to get a believeable £6 fake Romanian passport or the latest edition of the ILR stamp sold in Staples... and it look convincing enough with his photo instead of some chicken or bull, or some plastic passport lookalike that I was going to grant to my overeager nephew who wanted to run away from here, I am off the hook. Fake or no fake is not my problem. Checking or no checking is. Can't even do that and want the government to do that for me? I should be good for something at the very least!

The type of people who willfully employ illegal immigrants are not the type of people to care about these new penalties. They are more than likely involved in other types of activities that carry even heavier penalties anyway.

Another astonishing "fact" reproduced right from 'The book of true statistics that I have at the back of my head' that has not been challenged! In fact since it went in favour of the turn of tide of the thread, it got approval! If the people who do engage in such activities are asleep, one strict wakeup call and being made example of should do the trick.

And as pointed out, starting the id cards with immigrants is just a ploy to spread it to the general population.

[Dawie]

Why not make all immigrants wear a yellow star? It was successfully trialled in Germany in the late thirties with tremendous results and it's only a matter of time before it's tried here.

We already have the concentration camps, except they're called immigration detention centers here.

[OL7MAX]

Are you claiming that someone who knows the advanced functions of google and has several phones cannot find out which countries are in the EU?

Damn, now why didn't I think of using Google to show me the country list? And using Google alerts to tell me when new countries are added? Or Google images to tell me what a real ILR stamp and genuine Zimbabwean passport look like?

You don't need both the £6 fake passport and the £3 stamp. One is enough. I recommend the stamp as it's cheaper and you can design your own to use in your existing genuine/fake passport.

Good thing crooks don't know how to use Google or they'd make their fake stamp look like the real one!

[JA13I]

Dawie, comparing the real concentration camp to the immigration detention centre is belittling the suffering of the ones who were unfortunate to be in one.

[Wright]

Dawie, comparing the real concentration camp to the immigration detention centre is belittling the suffering of the ones who were unfortunate to be in one.

Will eventually be like the real concretration camp according to the first hand account of former inmate. Prisoners do get better treatment.

''I was transferred to Yarl's Wood immigration removal centre in Bedfordshire. I arrived at midnight. I told them I had just had a baby and had been separated from my kids, but they just gave me a paracetamol. I was distraught. My children weren't with me. I was crying all the time. I couldn't eat. They put me on antidepressants.

During the two weeks I was there, no one organised for me to see my kids or told me how they were. Whenever I asked one of the officers, "Please, I have to see my kids. I am breastfeeding. I am in pain," all they said was, "Have a paracetamol." I was told to take drugs to dry my milk. But I wanted Colin back, I wanted to breastfeed because I knew it was best for him.

Eventually, another woman in Yarl's Wood wrote a fax for me and sent it to the Black Women's Rape Action Project. A woman called Cristel Amiss called me back. She was shocked to hear my babies had been separated from me and said she would contact her breastfeeding network. She was in touch with me every day after that. One breastfeeding expert, Sheila Kitzinger, got Lord Avebury, a Liberal Democrat peer, to write to the minister for immigration.

Around the same time, one of the officers at the centre came to me with a smile on his face. "Good news, Janipher. We have booked you a flight back to Uganda." There was only my name on the notice of removal directions. I was distraught at the thought of being deported without my children. I know of at least one woman who is now back in Uganda while her children are still in foster care in this country.

I was frantic. I had one week until the plane left with me on it. I called Cristel for help to have the flight cancelled. They sent out an email to lots of people, many of whom sent protests to the Home Office, and thankfully my children were returned to me that week. Chantell was like a stick, she had eczema, her nails were too long. Colin was like a small rat. He was losing his appetite, he was very sick. The children had not been bathed the whole time they were away.

Yarl's Wood is a real prison. There is a lot of beloved and intimidation from the staff. You are locked up for 24 hours a day. They take your phone. You have no access to the internet. It's a horrible place for kids. The food is awful. It is the same every day - days-old reheated jacket potatoes, partially cooked fried eggs, food with hair, dirt and worse in it. There never seems to be enough and the serving people are rude. I saw a lot of people suffering. I personally knew one woman who had tried to commit suicide and I heard of other women who wanted to take their own lives out of desperation. While I was there, we went on hunger strike in protest against the conditions.''

www.guardian.co.uk/family/story/0,,2215967,00.html

[SYH]

Dawie, comparing the real concentration camp to the immigration detention centre is belittling the suffering of the ones who were unfortunate to be in one.

It isnt belittling it, it is emphasizing the slippery slope of human rights infringement

[avjones]

We already have the concentration camps, except they're called immigration detention centers here.

THat is both stupid and offensive.

[JA13I]

Will eventually be like the real concretration camp according to the first hand account of former inmate.

Wright, even overlooking the exaggeration that I would associate with such an account of events, I still think it is a long way off comparing with concentration camps.

It isnt belittling it, it is emphasizing the slippery slope of human rights infringement

SYH, maybe. But the example used is bit too harsh and raw to be compared with in the current state of events. A jail would have been more appropriate a term. I am not taking the side of the government here and saying that it will not turn one in the future. Infact, we are the closest ally to the closest comparision we may have of the concentration camp- the Guantanamo Bay.

[OL7MAX]

... stupid and offensive

May I ask, why?

"The Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd ed. defines concentration camp as: a camp where non-combatants of a district are accommodated, such as those instituted by Lord Spam during the South African war of 1899-1902; one for the internment of political prisoners, foreign nationals, etc., esp. as organized by the Nazi regime in Germany before and during the war of 1939-45."

Wikipedia says that the term was originally used by the English circa 1899. And that modern governments tend not to use the term for their own facilities prefering instead terms like... detention facility. However, if you call a spade a spade, here's a list of concentration camps. Pray, why does Yarl's Wood not qualify?

the exaggeration that I would associate with such an account of events

Wright, that's a moving story, thanks for the link. If someone with some inside information on how the detention centre operates would like to explain why this woman is a liar, I'd be interested in hearing it.

[avjones]

"The Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd ed. defines concentration camp as: a camp where non-combatants of a district are accommodated, such as those instituted by Lord Spam during the South African war of 1899-1902; one for the internment of political prisoners, foreign nationals, etc., esp. as organized by the Nazi regime in Germany before and during the war of 1939-45."

Pray, why does Yarl's Wood not qualify?

Detention centres are not designed to hold non-combatants or political prisoners. They are designed to hold, short-term, those due to be removed or deported. Concentration camps were desinged to hold people long term.

[jimquk]

I have to agree, as an advocate for rights of illegals to live as human beings, that the compariason with concentration camps, normally associated with Auschwitz and the like, is inappropriate.

However, it remains the case that refused people are often treated with a degree of brutality, official and freelance hatred, that should make us all firstly ashamed and secondly worried about where this might lead us.

A society that tolerates and even encourages witchhnts and victimisation against vulnerable groups can easily degenerate into one where everyone lives in fear. If we allow inhumanity free reign, who will be safe?

[tinux]

If you are a refused asylum seeker how can you be here legally?

A refused asylum seeker may be awaiting an appeal hearing, or awaiting documents which will allow him to leave the UK.

I agree totally,Jim. The removal of the right to work for asylum seekers was a shameful thing, and the main reason why I could never bring myself to vote for this Labour government.


Victoria

I second that
Plus giving the right to work works out better for the tax payers. think about it????????????? no work permit no right to benefit and the poor subject is told to wait for an outcome. this is sickening this labour government is a joke. if they really care then speed up the process faster and let people know instead of throwing their documents in the archive and hope some one withe better brain at Ho will deal with them.

[jimquk]

Inside wrote:

If you are a refused asylum seeker how can you be here legally?

Asylum seekers are given "tempoarary admission". They are generally required to report to a specified immigration office weekly or monthly, even daily sometimes, and to notify any change of address or circumstances. This does not change after refusal. Those with children or exceptional circumstances remain in Home Office accommodation, the rest are made homeless and destitute, but it is clear that at least until removal directions are issued they remain legally present in the UK, if unwelcome. (Actually, they are largely unwelcome even when granted status). Many continue signing for years, the Home Office clearly have no active plans to remove them. In many cases, removal is in fact impossible (country of origin refuses to accept) or against the Home Office's own policy (Zimbabwe, Arab Iraq). Moreover, many who claimed before about 2002 had and continue to have permission to work.

So can we be clear that refusal of asylum does not make you a criminal?

My position is not that refused people should not be removed, even though I wish that could be so. My position is simply that people should be allowed to live with dignity unless and until removal can be effected.

[JA13I]

If someone with some inside information on how the detention centre operates would like to explain why this woman is a liar, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Now that we have established that some people take everything that they read in the media to be the gospel truth with absolutely no leeway for even exaggerations, let us get to the next point at hand.

Detention centres are not designed to hold non-combatants or political prisoners.

Amanda, please do not negate a good (attempted) spin with facts. If he wants to equate a rattlesnake bite with a common garter's, why waste your time? Wiki says they are both snakes, you know!

[avjones]

I have to agree, as an advocate for rights of illegals to live as human beings, that the compariason with concentration camps, normally associated with Auschwitz and the like, is inappropriate.

I agree with you. Concentration camps left my grandfather in law with precisely no living relatives including his first wife and children, until he re-married and had a son. And his wife was one of 3 survivors of a family of parents, 9 children, and 6 grandchildren.

By all means, oppose detention centres. But to compare it to concentration camps is offensive.

[OL7MAX]

refused people are often treated with a degree of brutality, official and freelance hatred, that should make us all firstly ashamed

jimquk, it's a pleasure to read your carefully considered posts.

Amanda, Nazi concentration camps were nasty places. But they don't have an exclusivity. From the black hole of Calcutta to Idi Amin to Pol Pot mankind has inflicted enormous suffering on his own kind. The world is not stealing any mantle from Hitler's victims by calling other concentration camps by their real name, nor do these Holocaust survivors claim theirs was the worst ever suffering by a people in the history of the world.

It was bad. So was the Spanish Inquisition. But this is the 21st century and there's a lot we should have learnt from history by now. Ethic cleaning in Yugoslavia and Rwanda shouldn't be happening. But it does. Hundreds of thousands, no millions, have experienced suffering on par with what happened during WWII. They've been gand raped, had unborn babies ripped from their wombs, had their kids tortured and multiple amputated in front of their eyes, and worse.

Are the UK concentration camps as bad? No, they aren't. Does the UK turn a blind eye, allow, or even collude with the inflicting of torture? Not everybody is so sure that the answer is No. Do they treat asylum detainees the same way they treat prisoners? There's plenty of evidence to suggest they don't. Do they even treat them like humans? Ask some of the charities who work with these people.

she is exaggerating

But if, without any first hand knowledge of someone's experience, you cast aspersions on her story and hint at her unreliability as a witness, you are participating in that behaviour.

May you live a long and happy life to reflect on how fate has smiled on you.