Life is just about to get a lot tougher for illegal workers!

[Wright]

I have to agree, as an advocate for rights of illegals to live as human beings, that the compariason with concentration camps, normally associated with Auschwitz and the like, is inappropriate.

However, it remains the case that refused people are often treated with a degree of brutality, official and freelance hatred, that should make us all firstly ashamed and secondly worried about where this might lead us.

A society that tolerates and even encourages witchhnts and victimisation against vulnerable groups can easily degenerate into one where everyone lives in fear. If we allow inhumanity free reign, who will be safe?

Indeed. The question is where this might lead us?

[chibage]

delete

[Dawie]

We already have the concentration camps, except they're called immigration detention centers here.

THat is both stupid and offensive.

I don't think it is at all. And offensive to who? Jews don't have a monopoly on concentration camps, I'm afraid.

It's well known that illegal immigrants in detention centres in the UK are regularly abused, mistreated and generally treated as sub-humans.

Might I just add as well that the British invented concentration camps during the Anglo-Boer war in South Africa in the 19th century.

[SYH]

We already have the concentration camps, except they're called immigration detention centers here.

THat is both stupid and offensive.

I don't think it is at all. And offensive to who? Jews don't have a monopoly on concentration camps, I'm afraid.

It's well known that illegal immigrants in detention centres in the UK are regularly abused, mistreated and generally treated as sub-humans.

Might I just add as well that the British invented concentration camps during the Anglo-Boer war in South Africa in the 19th century.

Continuing on this line of thought, Japanese were interned in the USA, and I am a bit sick and tired of the Jews thinking they are the only ones who have suffered. Blacks in the USA continue to get the short end of the stick interms of socioeconomics where the jewish are thriving much better. NO doubt the Jewish plight was atrocious but I don't think it is so sacred that it can't be compared to other things. I can understand the sensitivity to the subject but I don't subscribe to this out and out putting the event as something that one cant compare it to anything or you are being stupid or someting. This is just like the Muhammed bear thing, I think people are just overreacting and being too sensitive.

[VictoriaS]

We already have the concentration camps, except they're called immigration detention centers here.

THat is both stupid and offensive.

I don't think it is at all. And offensive to who? Jews don't have a monopoly on concentration camps, I'm afraid.

It's well known that illegal immigrants in detention centres in the UK are regularly abused, mistreated and generally treated as sub-humans.

Might I just add as well that the British invented concentration camps during the Anglo-Boer war in South Africa in the 19th century.

Continuing on this line of thought, Japanese were interned in the USA, and I am a bit sick and tired of the Jews thinking they are the only ones who have suffered. Blacks in the USA continue to get the short end of the stick interms of socioeconomics where the jewish are thriving much better. NO doubt the Jewish plight was atrocious but I don't think it is so sacred that it can't be compared to other things. I can understand the sensitivity to the subject but I don't subscribe to this out and out putting the event as something that one cant compare it to anything or you are being stupid or someting. This is just like the Muhammed bear thing, I think people are just overreacting and being too sensitive.

PLEASE can we not go down this route? We are discussing the conditions of removal centres in the UK, and posts which include the lines "...I am sick and tired of the Jews thinking..." etc etc have no place here, are not relevant to the conversation, and are only ever going to bring in high emotion and bad feeling.

In fact, I think it might be a good idea to edit or delete your own post here, for the sake of the unity of the forum.

Victoria

[SYH]

PLEASE can we not go down this route? We are discussing the conditions of removal centres in the UK, and posts which include the lines "...I am sick and tired of the Jews thinking..." etc etc have no place here, are not relevant to the conversation, and are only ever going to bring in high emotion and bad feeling.

In fact, I think it might be a good idea to edit or delete your own post here, for the sake of the unity of the forum.

Victoria

I dont see why my thoughts are any more censorable than Dawies
I am sick of tired of any group thinking they got the monopoly of atrocities done to them.

[John]

Indeed Victoria, and as the person who started this topic, anything off-topic from now on will be promptly deleted.

But discussion on-topic very much welcome.

[ma_siddiqui]

I feel illegal workers normally work in hospitality industry like hotels/restaurents or maybe in retail and in small or medium companies

[Siggi]

Ma Siddiqui
So what on earth does illegal worker in the hospitality industry have to do with the tread?

[John]

As the person who started this topic, I think that is entirely relevant, given that it is about illegal workers, and how life is going to get a lot more difficult for them from next February.

And whilst "hospitality industry like hotels/restaurents or maybe in retail and in small or medium companies" have been mentioned, there are some other industries as well that, well, if I were working (which I don't) for the Home Office and planning where to target my resources first, those would be checked first, well before larger companies with well-organised and knowledgeable HR departments.

[OL7MAX]

What no one seems to have challenged is this: The spin suggests it will be easier than ever for employers to check. Reading more carefully it actually looks like it's not easier to check at all but it's easier for employers to avoid prosecution. P*ss easy!

Here's an example: The fixer arranges me some cheap labour and now includes paperwork in the deal. He does some crude forgeries - gets some UK passports and sticks the worker photo on it with sellotape before photocopying. I get warehouse staff at £2 an hour. In my filing cabinet I've got paperwork that looks like I was duped with fraudulent passports. Poor me. But at least I'm safe from prosecution because I personally took a photocopy of each passport these employees gave me. Who's to prove I didn't? Those British passport with these illegal immigrant names don't exist, of course. But how's the HO to prove that?

But ministers are clever and left themselves a nice escape hatch: subjectivity.

Given the strong feeling in the country about illegal working what's going to happen when the government needs to show that the current announcement is working? Like before the next election? I'll tell you - it's by HO officers being less easily convinced that "specified steps" were taken under section 2.8. And that will lead to more prosecutions of business (as a percentage of those checked) even if businesses overall have been more vigilant!

Think I'm a cynic? I've been dealing with government departments around the world since before some of the current crop of ministers were born, I know them a bit better than some.

[sakura]

As the person who started this topic, I think that is entirely relevant, given that it is about illegal workers, and how life is going to get a lot more difficult for them from next February.

And whilst "hospitality industry like hotels/restaurents or maybe in retail and in small or medium companies" have been mentioned, there are some other industries as well that, well, if I were working (which I don't) for the Home Office and planning where to target my resources first, those would be checked first, well before larger companies with well-organised and knowledgeable HR departments.

Very very good point (and also ma_saddiqui). Places like Chinatown would be easy targets precisely because they are obvious hot spots (i.e. they were in the past and continue to be targetted by HO) for illegals/overstayers to find work. Much like the raid in Chinatown a few weeks back...

[John]

that will lead to more prosecutions of business

Ah, you are overlooking something. Prosecutions can happen now, but are very rare! The new regime still permits prosecutions, but most will not be prosecuted ..... they will simply be issued with penalty notices ... up to £10000 per illegal employee .... but in concept terms very much like a parking ticket!

So I disagree that prosecutions will increase in number .... but the number of business issued with a penalty notice will be far greater than the current number of prosecutions.

[OL7MAX]

So I disagree that prosecutions will increase in number .... but the number of business issued with a penalty notice will be far greater

OK, it makes sense to fine rather than prosecute. Change prosecute to fine in my last post and the whole post is still valid. By imposing fines HMRC get some money while Labour meets electioneering objectives. Two birds. Brilliant! It's just a shame there isn't a system where business can pay fines directly into Labour coffers to get concessions. Oh, wait, maybe there is....

[Hernancortes]

"So if you are ilegal, go home!"

I love the self righteousness by some posters on these boards.

[John]

Hernancortes, but that is the point, isn't it! The UK Government is changing the rules and the effect of those changes is that employers will be less likely to employ illegal workers, especially knowingly.

So advising illegal workers to "go home" is merely pointing out the option to them, before life starts getting extremely tough.

[OL7MAX]

I don't believe that that's the point at all.

It's smokescreen. It's meant to look tough. It's now easier to be illegal and work here. Those businesses who like employing illegal workers now have a safe way to do it!

No, it's not about reducing illegal working, it's about looking like they are. Self-righteous, indeed!

[EdgeHillMole]

We've just had a number of arrests here in town about a week ago. It was a round-up of illegals working at a restaurant. The papers reporting the story reminded employers about the £10,000 fine.

I still think this is going to push illegals out of the legal marketplace and onto the black market. End result: More crime.

This will help future stats show a stronger correlation between [illegal] immigrants and crime (The word "illegal" may be omitted here, depending on the politician's desired spin).

[Hernancortes]

"So advising illegal workers to "go home" is merely pointing out the option to them, before life starts getting extremely tough."

You assume many people have the luxury of departing the UK for a better future. If you are a failed asylum seeker from Congo, Darfur, Somalia, Afghanistan Iraq etc, you will do anything to stay here as long as possible. Merely saying that illegals should go home assumes that many have homes to go to or their lives will be guaranteed by their governments when they land. Life may get extremely tough but faced with war, poverty, ethnic cleansing, unemployment inter alia, many will choose to stay and tough it out. I wish them well in the UK, as they are just trying to make a better life for themselves otr their families.

Another thing, the government's aim is to make life very uncomfortable for undocumented migrants but they forget it is these migrants who will be turning up at their MP surgeries seeking any form of assistance for them and their families. when they cannot access NHS primary care, banking, employment etc. What will the government do then?

[kayter54]

refused people are often treated with a degree of brutality, official and freelance hatred, that should make us all firstly ashamed

jimquk, it's a pleasure to read your carefully considered posts.

Amanda, Nazi concentration camps were nasty places. But they don't have an exclusivity. From the black hole of Calcutta to Idi Amin to Pol Pot mankind has inflicted enormous suffering on his own kind. The world is not stealing any mantle from Hitler's victims by calling other concentration camps by their real name, nor do these Holocaust survivors claim theirs was the worst ever suffering by a people in the history of the world.

It was bad. So was the Spanish Inquisition. But this is the 21st century and there's a lot we should have learnt from history by now. Ethic cleaning in Yugoslavia and Rwanda shouldn't be happening. But it does. Hundreds of thousands, no millions, have experienced suffering on par with what happened during WWII. They've been gand raped, had unborn babies ripped from their wombs, had their kids tortured and multiple amputated in front of their eyes, and worse.

Are the UK concentration camps as bad? No, they aren't. Does the UK turn a blind eye, allow, or even collude with the inflicting of torture? Not everybody is so sure that the answer is No. Do they treat asylum detainees the same way they treat prisoners? There's plenty of evidence to suggest they don't. Do they even treat them like humans? Ask some of the charities who work with these people.

she is exaggerating

But if, without any first hand knowledge of someone's experience, you cast aspersions on her story and hint at her unreliability as a witness, you are participating in that behaviour.

May you live a long and happy life to reflect on how fate has smiled on you.

I agree with both of you, I was in Auschwitz (with organized tour) last summer, I saw the terrible picture, I heard a scary story about life there, I have never seen such cruelty as there, Everyone have to go there to see what people can do it to each other ...