Problem with Belgian Embassy

[Humb]

Thanks for your help Directive! And the board's.

In the end we got the visa that we required.

But i will write to Solvit and see what they can do.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

It looks like the embassy web site has been updated slightly. They now say

(*) Exceptions: Official partners (spouses, civil partners …) of Belgian citizens as well as foreign diplomatic and service passport holders can apply directly at the Embassy from Monday to Friday, from 9 to 11 am.
All other visa applicants can still apply at the visa section of this Embassy but strictly by appointment only (tel : +44 (020) 7470 3703/04 between 15.00 pm and 16.00 pm).

Has anyone gotten any word back from the embassy yet?

[Fairtrade]

From the Belgium embassy's website in london:

http://www.diplomatie.be/london/default ... =10&mnu=36

Under Schengen Visas it says:

Please note that additional documents might be requested when lodging your application, even if you are the spouse or child of an EU citizen.


The Schengen form itself says EU spouses don't need to fill in all the questions on the schengen form but now it seems the Belgium embassy in london may ask for any futher information???


I thought the whole thing about the EU was to allow EU citizens and their partners free movement to travel within the EU, it is bad enough to fill in a form for a schengen visa surely it is just crazy to now to ask the partner for further information as they please???

Is this even legal to ask for further information to the EU spouse??

Surely if you are an EU citizen you may decide to move to anywhere within the EU without further questions or proof of any funds.

It's like telling the EU husband yes you may go and live and work anywhere in Europe anytime you want, but your wife can't go untill she proofs she has enough funds to look after herself, return tickets, letter from her employer etc, etc........

Does the EU make any sense??? Saying one thing and doing exactly the opposite???

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

In most cases they can not require any additional information beyond travel documents and proof of the relationship.

In a few cases they can, specifically when they suspect a marriage is fraudulent. In that case, they can ask for proof that the marriage is real.

They can also ask for other things, like "What is your favourate song?" or "Do you like chilli peppers?". You do not have to provide them with an answer, should not provide them with an answer, and they still must issue the visa.

[jumpinggene]

Does anybody have a proper contact number for the Belgian Visa Application Center?? Because I applied two weeks ago, and have been stonewalled by them ever since. I'll be going to Belgium on the 2nd of July, so there's still a fair amount of time left. However, I'm panicking since I'm a South African citizen in the UK, and have issues when it comes to knowing where my passport is (which is "missing" somewhere between Newcastle and London at the moment).

The number (020 7811 3979) provided at the website contains a recorded message (followed by what seems to be access to the post box containing the message - I was seriously tempted to try to break in and change it). They've ignored my e-mails so far, and the people who work at the Belgian Embassy are they're usual grumpy selves (not helpful at all). Also, the online application tracking system has scripting errors, so no joy there...

How do I get a human being on the other side of the line, or should I just cough up £60-80 and take the train down to London? My application was about £88 in total, and contained my passport and a *lot* of personal information. If that should "get lost"...

[skchatterjee2006]

I have read through the detailed communication as regards the harassment & chaos which all of us have been facing at the Belgian Visa Application Centre (VAC) in London, (address 5 Lower Belgrave Street, Victoria, London SW1W 0NR). The reason that I am writing about my case is to seek recourse as to what action should I be taking next. As noticing that there are many individuals such as myself who have previously been through this predicament, & are still going through this predicament such as that I am going through, it would be good if we could somehow start a serious complaint & grievance process, which would involve the media, as well as any suggestions which you may have.

Let me summarise the details of my case in fact form.

1. I am a British Citizen, a British passport holder, travelling to Belgium on a regular basis.
2. My wife is an Indian passport holder with an Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR) on her passport. She also has a 10 year USA B1/B2 visa on her passport, as well as a previous Schengen Visa (from the French Embassy…getting that was a nightmare best forgotten!) which has expired on August 2007 this year.
3. As previous, we were advised by the Belgium Embassy to visit the Belgian Visa Application Centre in London so as to get the Schengen visa for my wife (she would be accompanying me on regular trips to Belgium) as when-ever it suits her.
4. I being British, & my wife being a spouse of a British Citizen, filled in the Schengen Visa application form as requested, & provided all the documentation that we need to provide (as was previously done for the Schengen Visa which she had from the French Embassy).
5. The documentation that is needed is our passports, our marriage certificate, 2 passport photographs, & the Schengen Visa application form.
6. Also it is my understanding that we do not need to fill in those sections of the Schengen Visa application form which have been marked with an asterisk (*). In the form it specifically mentions that those areas marked with an asterisk (*) do not need to be filled in by spouses of EU/EEA/British Citizens.
7. We (my wife) submitted the form at the visa centre in London (we do not live in London, so it was a hassle to get there. As I did not need to make an application, I was told very rudely not to sit next to her, as that would jeopardise the application process, which was not only embarrassing but also made me feel that I was committing some fraud!!
8. My wife was asked when & where she would be travelling, followed by a plethora of documentation that was requested which included the following:- 6 months bank statements, original travel tickets, hotel bookings, full journey itinerary, travel insurance, employer letters, home office letters, life insurance policies, invitation letter/purpose of journey letter from Belgium.
9. When I intervened & challenged the individual clerk concerned at the visa application centre, I was told that if those documents are not provided then the application would be rejected. Further, she mentioned that although the Schengen visa form had asterisks on them, we would still need to fill in the full form, & provide the full-visa fee & the application fee as well.
10. I obviously was completely taken aback by all this, & when I tried to intervene again, I was abruptly told to leave the premises, as I was seriously hindering the application process.
11. My wife mentioned that she would be travelling with me to Belgium in the next week sometime, as the tickets would be provided to us at the station (St Pancras) as they are in e-ticket format, provided as a gift to us by our friends. I would then be getting other tickets while staying in Belgium to travel around a bit with my wife in Europe (as she has not done that much travelling but I have due to my work purposes).
12. When she mentioned the above, the clerk at the VAC said that she would not be able to take the application. At this point I again intervened (I had not left as you may have guessed), & mentioned & explained how we propose to spend the near 3 weeks holiday in Belgium, & probably in some other countries as well (we make up trips as we go along – as we hate package holidays!)
13. When I mentioned Eurostar as our mode of travel, it was mentioned that tickets to Eurostar would not be valid (firstly because the were e-tickets, as the originals you get only when you punch in the numbers on the vending machine with your credit card at St Pancras in London, & secondly, because Eurostar would not travel to Belgium directly, but would go via France, hence my wife could not get a Schengen from Belgium!)
14. Then they mentioned that if we were to travel by Eurostar, she could only get a Schengen visa from France (although we would be going to Belgium, staying in Belgium & not travelling to France at all!) After this argument failed, they mentioned that we could not get the Eurostar to Europe (Belgium) as France becomes the first point of contact. When I mentioned that we would be spending the most time in Belgium, they said flying was the only option.
15. When I then mentioned that what I would do with the e-tickets on the Eurostar, which I have already paid for, they said that I should not have booked the tickets, although the very next moment they said that we needed to show the original tickets (a complete oxymoron!!)
16. At this point I was really losing it, but I kept calm & let my wife apply anyway, as we would be hitting Belgium next week anyway. They happily then proceeded towards payment, & charged us a hefty amount (£64), which when I asked, came down (they were charging for the visa fee as well if I had not pointed it out!) They still charged £22 which is apparently illegal, & have sent the passport to the Belgian Embassy.
17. Now, it as been a week & they are not replying to any phone-call, email, letter or communication at all. Whenever I or my wife has contacted them, they are saying that it is in process, & refuse to comment on what the status is, & when the passport will be returned with the Schengen Visa. When we applied, the VAC said it would take 48 hours (& so did the Belgian Embassy), but it has long gone over 48 hours.
18. What we are concerned is that all our December holiday plans would be jeopardised. Although we are also going to Italy & probably Germany & Austria as well, & could have applied at the Italian Embassy, they are even worse (no appointment before second week of January 2008, & we would be spending a longer time in Belgium, as well as visiting Belgium more number of times), hence the approach to the Belgium Embassy.
19. After all this we are in a serious conundrum. My wife’s passport is stuck at the Embassy, they are being deliberately non-responsive (I think they realised that they would not be able to get the documentation that they are looking for, & that the documentation that they are asking for is not a pre-requisite anyway…as I have learnt from the communication that I have followed through on your website, hence them being non-responsive!!), & they have charged £22 which they are not willing to refund as well.
20. We both a trying desperately to get back the passport, but have had not much of a success at present. If they reply & give the Schengen visa by this week, then its going to be fine, or else we would loose all the money on our tickets & the bookings for the tickets, car-hire etc, & even the money for the hotels etc etc.
21. I am thinking of a way…I have used this site before, & previously some advice that was provided to me was very accurate & really helpful, so I am asking for the next course of action that I/we should take. Worst comes to worst, should we be going to the police? It is quite strange, but in my 35 years in UK (I am British born), & my wife’s nearly 5 years in UK, we both have never been treated so badly & embarrassingly before. I really need to make this public, make others like myself aware of all this, & I think we need to take a joint & collective action against this with immediate effect.
22. Just to add, after mentioning that I was a local government staff, & my wife a medic, working in public health within the NHS, they seemed to calm down slightly (as before that the staff at the VAC were shouting & behaving very rudely).

With all the above in details, what would you suggest should be the next best course of action? Please help. Thanking Mr & Mrs S K Chatterjee.

[Dawie]

Has anyone thought of using their local county court to reclaim their money from the Belgian embassy?

HMCS (Her Majesty's Courts Service) has a very useful website that will allow you to file papers online in order to pursue a monetary claim from any third party.

https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco2/index.jsp

Perhaps it's time that these power hungry idiots started being taken to a county court and shown that they can't get away this anymore.

If you have the names of any individuals working at the Belgian embassy or the Belgian VAC, perhaps you can pursue claims against these individuals for your money.

If you win your claim, the other party will be responsible for your costs (which will be something like £25).

Remember you can also claim back any extra expenses that you incurred unnecesarrily in trying to obtain your visa (train tickets, ridiculous 09 number charges etc). Also if you make a court claim and they do not respond to it (which in their arrogance they probably won't), a judgement will be made in your favour and all costs will be awarded to you.

If this has worked for reclaiming ridiculous bank charges from large High street banks, why not against embassies?

[mym]

If you have the names of any individuals working at the Belgian embassy or the Belgian VAC, perhaps you can pursue claims against these individuals for your money.

I'll get some on Thursday 6th December, when my russian Civil Partner and I are going to the Belgian Embassy to an appointment that we booked on the 19th November (you can, if you are not belgian, book an appointment, see http://www.diplomatie.be/london/default ... =10&mnu=36

"Official partners (spouses, civil partners …) of Belgian citizens as well as foreign diplomatic and service passport holders can apply directly at the Embassy from Monday to Friday, from 9 to 11 am. All other applicants can still apply at the visa section of this Embassy but strictly by appointment only! (tel : (020) 7470 3703/04 between 15.00 pm and 16.00 pm only!). ")

When I called to make that appointment I was explicitly told that they would want proof of income, travel, accommodation etc etc and that all the questions of the form were to be filled in despite the form itself saying that they do not need to be. I asked them to confirm this in writing which they promised to do via email (which never appeared).

I have no intention whatsoever of complying with this illegal intrusion into our private life and will be taking the directive and various other rules and regulations with me.

If they refuse to issue the visa I will be appealing and will sue for any losses incurred.

Though, as we are travelling on Eurostar on Saturday 8th, I will also have to try out the part of the Directive that states that we can, at a border, enter with passports and proof of family relationship only.

I'll report back later.

[mym]

Incidentally, I already complained earlier this year about the mandatory £22 fee. Here is the response SOLVIT UK sent me a few weeks later:

Good morning Mr Ynys-Mon

Yesterday afternoon I received a response from SOLVIT Belgium.

The spouse of an EU national is not obliged to make a payment to obtain a visa, and any applicant is free to file their application directly with the Belgian Embassy in London, this advice can be found in the following link:

http://www.diplomatie.be/en/travel/visa ... XTID=40117

However, the Embassy also includes on its website the services of a private company, VFS, which can help the citizen obtain a quicker visa and avoid the need to make an appointment and go in person to the Embassy, the services of this private company are not free, it costs £22, but a citizen does not have to use the company, a direct application to the Embassy can be made.

I appreciate on reading through the website of the Embassy in London that there will be some confusion. Where advice is provided about how to obtain a visa, the response is that a citizen must make an appointment and go in person, following this route the citizen would not be charged. But for some citizens this is not practical or possible and so another route is provided through a private company.

Regards

Christine Korcz
UK SOLVIT Centre

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

The head of the Belgium embassy section which handles visas is

Mr Eric Jacquemin
Embassy of Belgium
17 Grosvenor Crescent
London SW1X 7EE

He is well aware of the requirements for handling visas for family members of EU citizens (1) for free, (2) on the basis of an accelerated process and (3) as soon as possible.

If you have a problem dealing with the person you are talking with, you might consider asking for him to join the discussion.

Note that in Belgium, Directive 2004/38/EC has direct effect as a law since they have not (yet) passed local implementing legislation.

[mym]

The head of the Belgium embassy section which handles visas is

Mr Eric Jacquemin
Embassy of Belgium
17 Grosvenor Crescent
London SW1X 7EE

He is well aware of the requirements for handling visas for family members of EU citizens (1) for free, (2) on the basis of an accelerated process and (3) as soon as possible.

Unfortunately he is also aware that he can demand travel and accommodation details and bank statements etc etc from third-country nationals because (apparently) the Schengen rules allow him to do so and the Directive merely states that a visa in accordance with those rules must be issued.

That's the outcome of enquiries to Signpost.

I'm disputing this but it looks like it won't help me on Thursday...

If you have a problem dealing with the person you are talking with, you might consider asking for him to join the discussion.

I'll bear it in mind, thanks.

Note that in Belgium, Directive 2004/38/EC has direct effect as a law since they have not (yet) passed local implementing legislation.

They may have now incorporate dthem. Signpost commented thus:

"In Belgium, the EU rules are implemented by Law of 15 December 1980 as last amended in 2006. You will find this law on the Belgian immigration office_s website: http://www.dofi.fgov.be/fr/nieuw/wet15121980.htm "

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Do you have an appointment at the embassy or at VFS?

[mym]

Do you have an appointment at the embassy or at VFS?

At the Embassy (though apparently an 'appointment' means just you just turn up between 8.30 and 12).

SOLVIT UK were as useless as everyone usually says, they virtually shrugged and said they weren't interested in any probably misapplication of the law - I'm going to formally complain about them.

I quote below the reply from Signpost (note the sudden reference to "your wife" in the middle of it, indicating that the central portion is a cut and paste standard reply):

__________

Dear Sir,

Thank you for your enquiry.

Directive 2004/38 regulates the travel rights of EU citizens and their family members.

According to Article 5(2): _Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 [Schengen visa] or, where appropriate, with national law. [_]

Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas. Such visas shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure._

Registered partners are included in the category of _family members_ if the country where you wish to travel recognises registered partners. We understand this is the case in Belgium.

Since the UK is not part of the countries that have signed the Schengen agreements, as a non-EU citizen, you partner must have a Schengen visa issued to him in order to enter the Schengen single travel area, to which Belgium belongs.

This means that your partner has a right to travel with you and therefore to obtain a Schengen visa to travel to Belgium. It also means that the embassy authorities must issue a visa to you _free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure_.

According to the Schengen Convention, your partner must fulfil the following conditions to be allowed to enter the EU:

_Article 5
1. For visits not exceeding three months, aliens fulfilling the following conditions may be granted entry into the territories of the Contracting Parties:
(a) the possession of a valid document or documents, as defined by the Executive Committee, authorising them to cross the border;
(b) the possession of a valid visa if required;
(c) if applicable, the aliens shall produce documents substantiating the purpose and the conditions of the planned visit and shall have adequate means of support, both for the period of the planned visit and the return to their country of origin or transit to a non-member country, where their admission is guaranteed, or shall be in a position to acquire such means legally;
(d) the aliens shall not be persons for whom an alert has been issued for the purposes of refusing entry;
(e) the aliens shall not be considered to be a threat to public policy, national security or the international relations of any of the Contracting Parties._

For processing your wife_s application, the Belgian authorities are entitled to ask for the documents listed in Section 1.4 of the Common Consular Manual.
http://europa.eu.int/smartapi/cgi/sga_d ... l=guichett

The list of documents is not exhaustive and national authorities may ask for additional documents relating to _the purpose of the journey, means of transport and return, means of subsistence and accommodation_.

_V EXAMINATION OF APPLICATIONS AND DECISIONS TAKEN
[_]
1.4. Verification of other documents depending on the application
The number and type of supporting documents required depend on the possible risk of illegal immigration and the local situation (for example whether the currency is convertible) and may vary from one country to another. As concerns assessment of the supporting documents, the diplomatic missions or consular posts of the Contracting Parties may agree on practical arrangements adapted to suit local circumstances.
The supporting documents shall cover the purpose of the journey, means of transport and return, means of subsistence and accommodation:
- supporting documents regarding the purpose of the journey shall mean, for example:
- a letter of invitation,
- a summons,
- an organised trip;
- supporting documents regarding means of transport and return shall mean, for example:
- a return ticket,
- currency for petrol or car insurance;
- supporting documents regarding means of subsistence:
the following may be accepted as proof of means of subsistence: cash in convertible currency, travellers cheques, cheque books for a foreign currency account, credit cards or any other means that guarantees funds in hard currency.
The level of means of subsistence shall be proportionate to the length of visit and purpose of the visit, and also the cost of living in the Schengen State or States to be visited. To this end, reference amounts shall be fixed each year for the crossing of borders by the national authorities of the Contracting Parties (see Annex 7)(4);
- supporting documents regarding accommodation:
the following documents inter alia may be accepted as proof of accommodation:
(a) hotel reservation or reservation for a similar establishment.
(b) documents proving the existence of a lease or a property title, in the applicant's name, proving ownership of a property situated in the country to be visited.
(c) where an alien states that he/she shall stay at a person's home or in an institution, the diplomatic missions and consular posts shall verify whether the alien will actually be accommodated there:
- either by checking with the national authorities, where such checks are necessary,
- or by requiring that a certificate be presented which vouches for the commitment to accommodate, in the form of a harmonised form filled in by the host/institution and stamped by the competent authority of the Contracting Party, according to the provisions laid down in its national legislation. A model of the form may be adopted by the Executive Committee,
- or by requiring that a certificate or an official or public document be presented which vouches for the commitment to accommodate, worded and checked in accordance with the internal law of the Contracting Party concerned._

It therefore appears legitimate for the Belgian authorities not to process your partner_s application until he provided the documents requested.

You will find out more about the EU rules on residence on this website:
http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAct ... anguage=en

The rules themselves are contained in Directive 2004/38:
http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/lex/LexUri ... 1):EN:HTML

In Belgium, the EU rules are implemented by Law of 15 December 1980 as last amended in 2006. You will find this law on the Belgian immigration office_s website:
http://www.dofi.fgov.be/fr/nieuw/wet15121980.htm

We hope this answers your query.

You should feel free to contact us if this does not resolve your situation.

Yours sincerely,

Citizens Signpost Service

The advice given by the Signpost Service legal experts is independent advice and shall not be considered to be the opinion of the European Commission. As such it will not in anyway bind the Commission.

[Richard66]

... appreciate on reading through the website of the Embassy in London that there will be some confusion. Where advice is provided about how to obtain a visa, the response is that a citizen must make an appointment and go in person, following this route the citizen would not be charged. But for some citizens this is not practical or possible and so another route is provided through a private company.

Regards

Christine Korcz
UK SOLVIT Centre

Good Old Christine Korcz! She's the one who guaranteed me that my wife could never get an EEA FP to go to the UK on a visit (I'm a British citizen exercising treaty rights in Italy) unless a court decision were taken! Well, she only opened her mouth to put her foot in, because some days later the UK Embassy said my wife could apply for an EEA FP and UK Visas placed information confirming this on their Internet site. Called attention to this she has carefully refrained form commenting. So much for Solvit UK.

[mym]

Good Old Christine Korcz! :lol: She's the one who guaranteed me that my wife could never get an EEA FP to go to the UK on a visit (I'm a British citizen exercising treaty rights in Italy) unless a court decision were taken! Well, she only opened her mouth to put her foot in, because some days later the UK Embassy said my wife could apply for an EEA FP and UK Visas placed information confirming this on their Internet site. Called attention to this she has carefully refrained form commenting. So much for Solvit UK.

More exchanges from today:

CK: I have tried to be practical in my assistance to you. Whether or not a Member State can request the information, most Member States will. Member States consider that they are interpreting the Directive correctly, and this position the Commission is aware of.


MYM: I appreciate the time you personally have taken to reply to me, I will
however be complaining about SOLVIT's evident lack of interest in the
matter. You are not paid to just shrug your shoulders when a citizen
complains of misapplication of EU Law. Please send me details, by return, of your complaints procedure.


CK: I am copying this e-mail to my manager, Mrs Celia Kissoon, Head of the UK SOLVIT Centre, in order that she can respond to you directly in respect of the way in which I have dealt with your complaint. She is in Brussels until Friday, I shall ensure that she responds to you at her earliest opportunity on her return.


Care to make a joint complaint Richard? :)

Chris and her friends are of course part of the UK Civil Service (see the foot of http://www.dti.gov.uk/europeandtrade/eu ... 19813.html), so it's no surprise they are not as independent in their attitudes as we might wish.

[Richard66]

Care to make a joint complaint Richard?

That might be an idea In my case her answers were fired within 30 minutes of being received. I doubt they were even read and the answer was posssibly ready beforehand.

[archigabe]

Good Old Christine Korcz! She's the one who guaranteed me that my wife could never get an EEA FP to go to the UK on a visit (I'm a British citizen exercising treaty rights in Italy) unless a court decision were taken! Well, she only opened her mouth to put her foot in, because some days later the UK Embassy said my wife could apply for an EEA FP and UK Visas placed information confirming this on their Internet site. Called attention to this she has carefully refrained form commenting. So much for Solvit UK.

More exchanges from today:

CK: I have tried to be practical in my assistance to you. Whether or not a Member State can request the information, most Member States will. Member States consider that they are interpreting the Directive correctly, and this position the Commission is aware of.


MYM: I appreciate the time you personally have taken to reply to me, I will
however be complaining about SOLVIT's evident lack of interest in the
matter. You are not paid to just shrug your shoulders when a citizen
complains of misapplication of EU Law. Please send me details, by return, of your complaints procedure.


CK: I am copying this e-mail to my manager, Mrs Celia Kissoon, Head of the UK SOLVIT Centre, in order that she can respond to you directly in respect of the way in which I have dealt with your complaint. She is in Brussels until Friday, I shall ensure that she responds to you at her earliest opportunity on her return.


Care to make a joint complaint Richard?

Chris and her friends are of course part of the UK Civil Service (see the foot of http://www.dti.gov.uk/europeandtrade/eu ... 19813.html), so it's no surprise they are not as independent in their attitudes as we might wish.

We had the same response with SOLVIT Ireland...basically all they did was acknowledge our complaint and said they couldn't do anything unless the Irish government was willing to change it's mind...And solvit Ireland seems a part of the Irish department of Trade. I dont know what the point is in having an organization which just seems to tell you they have their hands tied unless the government changes their mind.

I guess one option would be to complain to the E.U Ombudsman which is the organization to make complaints against E.U bodies.

http://ombudsman.europa.eu/

http://europa.eu/institutions/index_en.htm

[geoffsinclair]

EU Ombudsman will not be able to assist in this matter as UK Solvit is part of the national administration not an EU institution.

http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/site/about/index_en.htm

[Richard66]

EU Ombudsman will not be able to assist in this matter as UK Solvit is part of the national administration not an EU institution.

At least Solvit Italy is part of the Italian Presidency. If it's independent or nor I don't know, but at least they don't have ready-made answers. It seems to me there is no EU institution to deal with complaints. Maybe a petition to the European Parliament is called for?

[Richard66]

Yes, but the big boys at Solvit sit in Brussels. Just take a look at the e-mail address for complaints:

SOLVIT@ec.europa.eu

[mym]

When I called to make that appointment I was explicitly told that they would want proof of income, travel, accommodation etc etc and that all the questions of the form were to be filled in despite the form itself saying that they do not need to be. I asked them to confirm this in writing which they promised to do via email (which never appeared).

I have no intention whatsoever of complying with this illegal intrusion into our private life and will be taking the directive and various other rules and regulations with me.

...

I'll report back later.

Well what happened was that I caved in a bit, mainly as I needed an actual breach to complain about.

At the embassy I was asked the following "illegal" things:

To see the travel tickets (which they photocopied)

That I fill in the starred "who is your host and what is their address" question on the visa form (reason given was "that is because we have to enter that detail on the computer". I did not, and was not asked to, fill in any of the other starred questions.

I then asked if we would get a one year multi-entry visa as we had requested and mentioned that we intended to revisit Belgium in the next month or so, and also visit Italy. The advice was that it was up to the Consul to decide that, but usually first visas were only for the trip that tickets had been supplied for. "However if your host can fax us a letter inviting you and saying that you will be visiting them again soon, that might help". We got our host to fax a letter saying that.

At that point the visa staff member smiled and said that we could collect the passport with the visa tomorrow. On being asked if same day was possible he said "maybe. Try calling here between 3 and 4 this afternoon."

We did, and received a 6 month multiple entry visa at 3.45pm.

I'll now consider a complaint.

[Dawie]

It just goes to show that their visa issuance procedures seem to follow the whims of whoever is processing your visa, rather than any sort of standard procedures or rules.

[skchatterjee2006]

Yes I agree, exactly the same has happened with me. My wife (Indian passport, with Indefinite Leave to Remain in UK), myself British Citizen (British passport), went to Belgian Visa Centre & the mayhem started (see my previous post giving details). I forced them to give the passport back, which they have done, but without the visa. We are travelling to Belgium on the 10th December 2007 by Eurostar, so my wife will enter Belgium with me without a visa....& we will see the fun!!

I have faxed to the Belgian Embassy all the relevant papers (NO NOT WHAT THEY WANTED BUT THE DOCUMENTS WHICH CLEARLY SHOW THEM BREACHING THE EU LAW!!)...& they have said that our file has now gone to the Belgian Home Office in Brussels. What was real funny was that the Belgian Embassy was adamant that the document I was sending was not a part of Belgian law....but were pleasantly surprised to find that it was signed in Brussels...then they said that they cannot do anything as the file is with Brussels.

Obviously pulled the passport out as we need to travel, but as they have not provided the visa before our travel, hence have violated the provision of providing my wife a visa without hindrance, not used any accelerated procedure, & have not granted the visa (hence complete breach of the directive 2004/38/EC1).

I think it's now time we all got together to start a serious action against the Belgian Embassy in London, as well as the visa application centre (for their charging of £22).

How do people view this? As a starter, I am planning to engage the BBC (how about watchdog), & maybe Panorama as well....but I need numbers (in terms of actual individual cases, how many were messed about with, which embassies were involved, ....as we would need to target all the embassies that are behaving in a similar way with our spouses ....i.e. in the case of EU/EEA/UK citizens..not just for Belgium....

Any help, support, ways to attack this would be much appreciated.

[mym]

One last email arrived today from UK SOLVIT:

___________

I wish to make one final point.

Member States will agree that they can only request minimal documentation in respect of a visa application. However, they will also say that they are entitled under the general terms of the Directive to ensure that the applicants are eligible under the Directive, that they will not become a burden on that State, hence the common request for bank statements or proof of income to ensure that the citizen has sufficient funds for his trip and to return home without the need for financial assistance, travel insurance so that the citizen does not end up being treated for free in that Member State.

In respect of entering the Schengen Area from outside, as you would be if travelling into Europe from the UK, the Schengen Agreement requires the visa to be issued by the Member State where the citizen will spend the bulk of their time, even though the visa will then allow that citizen to travel through and to anywhere in the Schengen Area without further formality until it expires. In order to ensure that the visa is issued by the correct Member State, the travel arrangements will be requested.

I appreciate that you are unhappy at having to comply with these requirements, and as I have advised the Commission is aware of this common position throughout most of the EU. I am not aware of whether the Commission intends to take any action.


___________

I still think she doesn't actually understand this, note that she says "citizen" throughout that, when no EU citizen needs a visa of any sort. She must be thinking of a citizen's non-citizen family...

[Richard66]

Is this still dear Miss CB who sent you this e-mail, Mark? She might in part be right, but only in part. What I mean is, that from what I know the border police might ask you and your family member for these details once you attempt to enter another EEA state (the Italian border police recently sent back to Romania some people whom they suspected of fraud), but this might happen once every 1,000 years or so. Does anyone else agre with this or am I saying something outrageous?

What is wrong is that the embassies cannot ask for this beforehand from everyone.

From my reading of all these regulations and directives it's all very confusing, with one contradicting the other. It's so easy to pick and choose which particular regulation or law to apply.