Important info needed. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease help

av_raje · Post by **av_raje** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:20 pm

Hi
My husband and I are from India. We came here 5.5 years ago. We have two daughters aged 3 and 1. We had the citizenship ceremony and got the naturalisation cetificate on 8th Nov. After that my brother's wedding was fixed in India. Since my 1 year old didn't have any passport, we applied for the British passport on 12th Nov through Post Office Checking service for the four of us. The turnaround times were 2 weeks they said. But now they say they have sent passport only my elder daughter. My husband is waiting at the Liverpool IPS office and they said they will give the younger daughter's passport by 5 p.m today. We have to get Indian visitor visa for them tomorrow. We are travelling on 11th Dec i.e Tuesday next week. For me and my husband, they said because we are first time passport applicant over 18, we need to attend interview and that cannot happen any sooner now. I asked them that whether we can have our Indian passports back, so that we can travel for the wedding. They said that is fine, we can come back from India and submit our Indian passports and they will issue an interview date. Basically my husband is in Liverpool office today to collect our Indian passports back as well.

My doubt is can we travel with our Indian passports, when we have british citizenship status? Will they stop us somewhere and make criminal records to our names for travelling in Indian passport.

I have bought Â£1750 non refundable, non-changeable air tickets and many other arrangements in the hope that we will be able to travel to India. It is very important for me to be at my brothers wedding as well. I am the only sister for my three brothers.

Please anybody respond!!!

INSIDER · Post by **INSIDER** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:29 pm

In the UK you are perfectly entitled to have dual citizenship and no offence is committed. I believe it is the same for India, I know many Indian nationals who travel on Indian passports and use a UK passport to come back to the UK.

Put all your worries aside and enjoy the wedding you are not committing any offence.

av_raje · Post by **av_raje** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:35 pm

wow!!! thanks a lot 'INSIDER'. I am so relieved to know this. Thanks once again.

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:40 pm

INSIDER wrote:In the UK you are perfectly entitled to have dual citizenship and no offence is committed. I believe it is the same for India, I know many Indian nationals who travel on Indian passports and use a UK passport to come back to the UK.

Put all your worries aside and enjoy the wedding you are not committing any offence.

That is quite incorrect. When an Indian citizen aquires another citizenship he AUTOMATICALLY loses his Indian citizenship.

VictoriaS · Post by **VictoriaS** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:02 pm

So, when you travel, is the advice to not inform the Indian authorities of the dual citizenship?

Victoria

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:09 pm

VictoriaS wrote:So, when you travel, is the advice to not inform the Indian authorities of the dual citizenship?

Victoria

This topic has been covered many many times on this board. According to Indian citizenship law, if an Indian national aquires another country's citizenship they automatically lose their Indian nationality from the moment they acquired the other citizenship. Consequently the Indian passport they hold automatically becomes invalid and cannot be used for international travel. There is no formal renunciation required as the loss is automatic.

If you want to travel to India you can apply for Overseas Indian Citizenship (OIC) which is not really a citizenship but is actually a type of Indian permanent residency visa that will allow you to live and work in India on almost the same terms as an Indian citizen.

Bottom line: you CANNOT use your Indian passports to travel ANYWHERE. They became invalid the moment you swore allegiance to the Queen and took possession of your naturalisation certificate. They are invalid and you will be committing an offence if you use them and are caught.

VictoriaS · Post by **VictoriaS** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:19 pm

But it is an offence only in India, not in the UK, and if the Indian authorities are not aware of the situation then...?

This is a catch 22. They can't travel on Indian passports because they are technically no longer valid, but they don't yet have their British passports, so can't travel on those.

Victoria

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:22 pm

I believe travelling on an invalid passport is an offence in almost every country in the world! Obviously if the Indian authorities are unaware of your British citizenship then you might get away with it.

However if you used an Indian passport to travel to India and kept your British passport hidden in your luggage to use it return to the UK and you get stopped at Indian customs and they find the UK passport? Then the games up and you will be arrested for passport fraud.

VictoriaS · Post by **VictoriaS** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:27 pm

Yep, but he doesn't have his British passport yet, that's the point!

Victoria

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:36 pm

VictoriaS wrote:Yep, but he doesn't have his British passport yet, that's the point!

Victoria

Yeah, I see what you mean. However I'm sure you, as an immigration advisor, would not advise someone to knowingly commit a crime?

Whether the Indian government is aware of it or not, the fact of the matter is that according to Indian law these 2 individuals are no longer Indian citizens. The consequence of this fact is that their Indian passports are no longer valid.

Now I have no doubt that they will get away with using their Indian passports, but they will be committing a crime if they do in both the UK (for using an invalid passport) and in India (for using an invalid passport, trying to enter India without the correct visa).

VictoriaS · Post by **VictoriaS** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:41 pm

Dawie wrote:
Yeah, I see what you mean. However I'm sure you, as an immigration advisor, would not advise someone to knowingly commit a crime?

Of course not. Which is why I have posted questions and musings, and have not given advice on this matter.

Victoria

INSIDER · Post by **INSIDER** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:10 pm

Thanks for the education Dawie.

I was talking about committing an offence in the UK,
I think unless the Indian passport has been cancelled, pragmatically
it is very unlikely the poster would be charged with anything
on arrival back in the UK.

av_raje · Post by **av_raje** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:18 pm

Thanks to everyone who have responded. Both me and my husband have repeatedly asked the consultant in IPS, Liverpool who deals with our application whether we can travel, they said there is no problem. They have also advised us that when we get back from India, we can ring them whether they will still need our Indian passports or if they have made the copies already.

When my husband asked them to give a us letter just in case someone stopped us, they said they cannot give letter. The lady dealing with the application also consulted with her colleagues in the Liverpool IPS office and said that we can use our passports.

I read about Dual Nationality, it is stated that we don't have to give up the other country's citizenship, which means we don't have to give up the passport as well isn't it?

Only in India we might face problem, but because we don't have any passport other than Indian passport I don't think they will stop us. And I seriously hope, they don't.

Cheers.

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:35 pm

av_raje wrote:Thanks to everyone who have responded. Both me and my husband have repeatedly asked the consultant in IPS, Liverpool who deals with our application whether we can travel, they said there is no problem. They have also advised us that when we get back from India, we can ring them whether they will still need our Indian passports or if they have made the copies already.

When my husband asked them to give a us letter just in case someone stopped us, they said they cannot give letter. The lady dealing with the application also consulted with her colleagues in the Liverpool IPS office and said that we can use our passports.

I read about Dual Nationality, it is stated that we don't have to give up the other country's citizenship, which means we don't have to give up the passport as well isn't it?

Only in India we might face problem, but because we don't have any passport other than Indian passport I don't think they will stop us. And I seriously hope, they don't.

Cheers.

With respect, IPS consultants deal with matters relating to the issuance of British passports in the UK. Why you think they would be able to advise you on Indian nationality matters, I have no idea! I can't state this enough, Indian citizenship HAS GOT NOTHING to do with the UK, or IPS consultants or anyone else who works for the UK government. UK government officials cannot give advice about whether or not you are still an Indian citizen or whether you can travel on your Indian passport. The Indian goverment makes Indian citizenship laws not the IPS!

In fact the Home Office has even published a document relating to this effect:

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/docume ... iew=Binary

You are now a UK citizen, not an Indian citizen. Forget about those Indian passports, they are no longer valid.

6. Dual nationality
6.1 Indian citizenship cannot normally be held in combination with any other
citizenship. Section 9 of the 1955 Act provides that
"Any citizen of India who by naturalisation, registration or otherwise voluntarily
acquires.....the citizenship of another country..... shall, upon such acquisition,.....
cease to be a citizen of India".
6.2 This means that no adult (18 and over) can hold Indian citizenship in conjunction
with any other nationality or citizenship. This applies irrespective of whether the
person holds any passports (either Indian or that of their other nationality/citizenship).
6.3 Further, if an Indian minor obtains another nationality or citizenship (for example
by registration as a BN(O)) the child will automatically lose its Indian citizenship. This
applies even where the registration is made by the parents/guardian on behalf of the
child.
6.4 The only exception to this general ban on dual citizenship is where a child is a
dual national by birth. In such cases that child can remain a dual citizen until either:
a. they obtain a passport in their other citizenship (while under the age of 18); or
b. they reach the age of majority (18)
6.5 If a child who is a dual national by birth fails to renounce their other citizenship
prior to reaching the age of majority or acquires a passport in their other nationality
before reaching the age of 18 they will lose Indian citizenship.

impactcrew · Post by **impactcrew** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:49 pm

My suggestion would be to explain the situation to the Indian Embassy and see what there response is! In view of Dual citizenship i thought it is possible to have dual citizenships until u are issued with a british passport! AV another question would be to check yr indian passports and see if you still have yr valid uk visa's if so then there should be no problem and enjoy yr brothers wedding but I would still seek clarification on the matter from the Indian Embassy! What ever u do good luck! One word of advice is never book tickets unless u have valid passports.

av_raje · Post by **av_raje** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:57 pm

Thanks impactcrew and Dawie.

I am also thinking that I shouldn't make the travel with the Indian passports, although I am pretty sure that the Indian officials will not raise any concern.

As Dawie has suggested I am going to Indian Embassy tommorrow and ask them permission for us to travel. We still have valid work permit visa till 2010 and indefinite leave to remain visa on our Indian passports. If they allow us, no problem.

Otherwise as plan B I have thought of asking IPS about when our interview dates will be and bin our existing tickets and rebook them if they give us an indication of the interview dates. THe wedding is on 26th.

If they say 'we cannot tell anything, you will get the dates in the post'........That will make us very very unhappy and distressed. Already my mom back home is saying that she will postpone the wedding if I don't turn up and she is complaining of ill health because of my situation. I feel so stuck My brother whose wedding it is, is also extremely distressed.

impactcrew · Post by **impactcrew** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:54 pm

Av - best thing is relax and don't stress over the matter as I do know that IPS can issue passports the same day if you can prove to them that u have a medical emergency but the costs are extortionate. I wld say leave the worst for later and see if you can travel on yr indian passports as they are still valid and have all the necessary permits in them. Do let us know how u get on at the indian embassy tomorrow. Another thing is u could ring the home office and ask them for advice on the matter?

VictoriaS · Post by **VictoriaS** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:00 pm

av_raje wrote:

As Dawie has suggested I am going to Indian Embassy tommorrow and ask them permission for us to travel.

I suspect that if you go to the Indian HC and tell them you have now got British Citizenship they may just ask for your Indian passports back...

Victoria

Post by **JAJ** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:05 pm

Dawie wrote:Now I have no doubt that they will get away with using their Indian passports, but they will be committing a crime if they do in both the UK (for using an invalid passport) and in India (for using an invalid passport, trying to enter India without the correct visa).

Maybe a crime in India, but surely not a crime in the U.K. as they are British citizens anyway.

VictoriaS · Post by **VictoriaS** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:11 pm

Definitely not a crime in the UK.

I also know lots of Indian nationals who are also British nationals and just swap passports when they travel.

Victoria

av_raje · Post by **av_raje** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:31 am

Hi all

my husband is at the Indian Embassy in Birmingham today. He showed all of our passports including the girls British passorts, explained the situation that our British passports are getting delayed and we have to travel urgently. They have said that there is no problem, we can travel with our Indian passports. They have asked to take visitor visa on the girls british passports.

So I can travel confidently, can't I ?

I once again thank you everyone for your loving responses. This is an excellent forum.

Cheers

impactcrew · Post by **impactcrew** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:03 am

Thats great news Av and hope u do some balle balle shava shava at yr brothers wedding!

Al lthe best!

av_raje · Post by **av_raje** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:07 am

Thanks impactcrew

impactcrew · Post by **impactcrew** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:36 pm

Totally up to you and don't feel obliged and not sure if allowed on this forum but a few pics of yr trip would be nice!

av_raje · Post by **av_raje** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:19 pm

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Important info needed. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease help

Important info needed. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease help