Clarify British passport and citizenship nder section 3(2)

[IconBoy]

After reading the UK government website regarding passing on citizenship to a child — under section 3(2) — I am none the wiser about what route to take and hope someone can give clear information regarding the situation as it appears rather ambiguous concerning the answer.

• I lived in the UK from December 2000 until middle of 2007.

• From end of 2000 to middle of 2001 I was on a student visa. I applied to change status and (understandably) was denied and left UK, coming back later that year of 2001 on an Ancestry Visa.

• In 2003 the law changed and I was able to get citizenship under the MN1 category instead of going through the Ancestry route.
  (Took 24 days to apply and get UK citizenship. Amazing how quickly it took and got UK passport 12 days later!)

• In 2007 I left UK and currently reside in USA with wife and three kids (two born in UK and have UK/USA citizenship and youngest born in USA and currently has only USA citizenship).

The government website says that I can pass on UK citizenship to my youngest child through entitlement, even though I got mine through descent as well, because:

• I am a British citizen by descent and lived in the UK for a continuous period of 3 years at any time before my child’s birth.

• During that period I did not have absences exceeding 270 days.

• The youngest child is 7 years old, born in 2008.

(I realise I could also go the section 3(5) route but we're not sure if we'll end up back in UK just yet.)

Here's where I am confused:
I can either apply for citizenship for my child and pay the huge £749 fee and after that apply for a British passport or, I can (apparently) register them, get two references, pay the £80 fee and get them a passport that way (without going the MN1 route), but it's at the Home Office discretion.

If my child is eligible for a British passport (as they're automatically seen as a British citizen) and we don't have to go the MN1 route, I'd rather do that.
If it turns out we have to fill in MN1 for them, I'm more than willing to go down that road and pay the hefty fee if it means they can get British citizenship.

Hoping some folks on this forum can give clarity.
Many thanks.

[ouflak1]

Here's where I am confused:
I can either apply for citizenship for my child and pay the huge £749 fee (and after that apply for a British passport)...

That MN1 application is what is known as 'registration'.

or, I can (apparently) register them, get two references, pay the £80 fee and get them a passport that way (without going the MN1 route), but it's at the Home Office discretion.

I think you may have gotten things confused. 'Registration' is the MN1 application process. If I have got your dates and background correct, the child is not a British citizen yet, and you must register them under 3(2). Perhaps you were thinking of the Confirmation of Nationality application?

[ohara]

If you got British citizenship through registration (by using form MN1), you are a British citizen otherwise than by descent and any children born outside the UK after that date will be British citizens by descent and are entitled to apply directly for a passport.

The only way you can be a British citizen by descent is if you are born outside the UK to a British citizen otherwise than by descent. All other roads to British citizenship (being born in the UK, being adopted, being registered, being naturalised) will lead to British citizenship otherwise than by descent.

[secret.simon]

Well spotted, Ohara.

Sections 3(2) and 3(5) both apply to children of British citizens by descent. Prima facie, you are not a British citizen by descent as you gained your British citizenship by registration. Do you recall under which section of the British Nationality Act 1981 did you apply for registration under?

When was your youngest child born?

You mentioned that you came to the UK on an Ancestry visa in 2001. That suggests that you have atleast one Commonwealth citizenship. Why has your youngest child, which has only US citizenship according to you, not inherited the Commonwealth citizenship?

There is a really detailed guide on the Gov.UK website to figure out if you were a British citizen by descent or otherwise than by descent. You may also wish to read Sections 2, 3 & 4(A-D) of the British Nationality Act 1981.

[noajthan]

Well spotted, Ohara.

Sections 3(2) and 3(5) both apply to children of British citizens by descent. Prima facie, you are not a British citizen by descent as you gained your British citizenship by registration.

...

All other roads to British citizenship (being born in the UK, being adopted, being registered, being naturalised) will lead to British citizenship otherwise than by descent

My understanding is one of the 3(2) & 3(5) BNA routes does create a citizen by descent.

It may be that OP registered using form MN1 & became a citizen by descent by whichever option creates citizens by descent.
(On my cellphone so can't easily look up which is which).

[CR001]

In 2003 the law changed and I was able to get citizenship under the MN1 category instead of going through the Ancestry route.

It is quite important if the Poster can advise what law he is referring to (I don't remember any laws specifically in 2003) and through who or which parent did he claim and apply for British Citizenship.

[secret.simon]

My understanding is one of the 3(2) & 3(5) BNA routes does create a citizen by descent.

Actually, it is the other way round. The first requirement of both sections is "that the parent in question was a British citizen by descent at the time of the birth".

So, even assuming that the OP is a British citizen by descent by registration (possible under some sections of the BNA 1981 listed in Section 14 of that Act), if he acquired the British citizenship subsequent to the birth of the child, the registration under either Section would still fail.

[secret.simon]

In 2003 the law changed and I was able to get citizenship under the MN1 category instead of going through the Ancestry route.

It is quite important if the Poster can advise what law he is referring to (I don't remember any laws specifically in 2003) and through who or which parent did he claim and apply for British Citizenship.

Likely either the British Overseas Territories Act 2002 (which extended British citizenship to BOTCs by inserting Section 4A into the BNA 1981) or the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 (which inserted most of Sections 4B-4D) into the BNA 1981.

Most likely (educated guess), the OP was registered under Section 4C, which allowed British citizenship through British mothers for children born before 1983. But I understand that that would have been through Form UKM, not MN1. If that is the correct section that I have guessed, the OP would be a British citizen by descent under Section 14(1)(d) of the BNA 1981.

It boils down to whether he had acquired British citizenship by descent thorough registration before his youngest child was born or not.

[noajthan]

OP says he (thinks he) is a citizen by descent, since 2003.
He went to US in 2007 or so & had a child there.

So it seems parent is BC by descent before his foreign-born child was born.

My understanding is that the child qualifies for a 3(x) BNA registration on form MN1.

[secret.simon]

OP says he (thinks he) is a citizen by descent, since 2003.
He went to US in 2007 or so & had a child there.

So it seems parent is BC by descent before his foreign-born child was born.

My understanding is that the child qualifies for a 3(x) BNA registration on form MN1.

If these assumptions are true, I concur. He should read the relevant Sections of the BNA 1981 carefully and apply accordingly.

I am sure the OP has enough reading material for a few days.

[ohara]

He could do a confirmation of British natiionality request on Form NS, to find out for absolute certain his status? It's £162 (for now at least) and he should get a solid answer from HO (as well as a certificate as proof).

[secret.simon]

I am not sure that a Home office letter in response to Form NS states a person is a British citizen by descent or otherwise than by descent. It will likely just state that the person is a British citizen. The OP's registration certificate may have more information.

Perhaps somebody who has got such a letter (in response to Form NS) could advise.

[ohara]

I'm sure HO don't get many form NS applications. I know their word is not gospel by any means, but I was advised by both HO and HMPO to complete an NS to find out how my mother obtained her British citizenship, in order to determine whether I was British by descent. I was also considering just applying for a passport on the basis that I was British by descent, but it stated in the guidance that you should do form NS first and submit the certificate as evidence.

In the end I didn't need to, but I assume the reason why I was advised to do this as it would show how she was British.

[Richard W]

Actually, it is the other way round. The first requirement of both sections is "that the parent in question was a British citizen by descent at the time of the birth".

So, even assuming that the OP is a British citizen by descent by registration (possible under some sections of the BNA 1981 listed in Section 14 of that Act), if he acquired the British citizenship subsequent to the birth of the child, the registration under either Section would still fail.

I think Mrs IconBoy is a USA citizen. If IconBoy was originally Australian, then his children will not have been born Australian - they would have to be registered as Australian to become Australian. I get the impression IconBoy became British in 2003, and in any case before he left the UK. The 3rd child was born in the USA, so only acquired the right (Section 3(3)) to buy British citizenship.

[secret.simon]

Interesting. The more I learn about the nationality laws of other countries, the more I think that British citizenship has relatively mild conditions.

In another thread, I learnt that Dutch nationality can be lost if the person leaves the EU or the Netherlands for more than 10 years.

[ohara]

Interesting. The more I learn about the nationality laws of other countries, the more I think that British citizenship has relatively mild conditions.

In another thread, I learnt that Dutch nationality can be lost if the person leaves the EU or the Netherlands for more than 10 years.

Finland has some strange ones as well. I think the UK is one of the most relaxed countries in the world regarding its nationality laws. They don't care about multiple citizenships, and you can't lose British citizenship for any stupid reasons

A person born and resident abroad who has dual nationality (Finland and another country) may have to forfeit Finnish citizenship on reaching the age of 22.
A Finnish citizen who is also a citizen of a foreign country can keep Finnish citizenship only if he or she has a sufficiently strong link with Finland. What this means is defined in the Finnish Citizenship Act.
A sufficiently strong link is considered to exist if one of the following criteria is fulfilled:
1) if you were born in Finland and are domiciled in Finland when turning 22,
2) if you have lived in Finland, or another Nordic country (Iceland, Norway, Sweden or Denmark) for a total of seven years before reaching the age of 22,
3) if you were issued a Finnish passport at the age 18-21,
4) if you at the age 18-21 have stated in writing to a Finnish diplomatic mission abroad or to a Finnish local registry office, that you wish to retain Finnish citizenship. The declaration is free-form and can be submitted either in person or by post.
5) if you have done military or non-military service at the age 18-21.

[mbianco21]

Hello:

I received my UKM approval letter January 7, 2016. I live in Arizona. I have not received my ceremony letter? Has anyone in the western USA (I believe my consulate would be in Los Angeles) attended or received their ceremony letter?

Thank you.

[IconBoy]

Apologies for the months of quiet with no reply...life gets you busy and you forget about these important things.

I got UK citizenship in 2003 through UKM.
My Mom was British, born in UK in late 30s. (Her parents and grandparents were all born and lived in UK).
I was born in South Africa in late 60s with UK Mom and SA Dad living in SA at the time.

As previously stated, I seemingly fulfil the obligations of Sections 3(2) of being able to pass on citizenship through descent even if I got mine through descent because of my years living in UK before I got citizenship as well as after I got citizenship. I'm a dual national so hold SA and UK passports.

My certificate of registration shows this information.(Upper caps are how it's typed on the certificate, not shouting):

HOME OFFICE
British Nationality Act 1981
Certificate of Registration
as a
BRITISH CITIZEN
The Secretary of State, in.exercise of the powers conferred by the British Nationality Act of 1981, has registered the person named below as a
BRITISH CITIZEN

Name
Date of birth
Place and country of birth

Issued on the direction of the Secretary of State
HOME OFFICE LONDON
Certificate #: xxxxxxx Date: xx July 2003
Reference #: Rxxxxxxx Section: 4C
BRITISH CITIZEN

Some folks say I am a UK citizen by registration and not descent. Others say it is by descent even though certificate says registration — thus the reason for the whole confusion in the first place: wondering if I can apply for a UK passport for my USA born child (born in 2008) directly or if they have to be regslistered as a citizen first (form MN1 I believe), then apply for UK passport.

[Richard W]

Some folks say I am a UK citizen by registration and not descent. Others say it is by descent even though certificate says registration — thus the reason for the whole confusion in the first place: wondering if I can apply for a UK passport for my USA born child (born in 2008) directly or if they have to be regslistered as a citizen first (form MN1 I believe), then apply for UK passport.

I concur with the view that you are British by descent, despite being registered as such. Now, one might think that this is by section 4C(3C). However, I believe the the applicable form of Section 4C is that given by Section 13 of the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002, which is much easier to understand. Either way, the OP is only British by descent.

Consequently, your youngest child must first be registered as British to obtain a British passport.

[IconBoy]

Either way, the OP is only British by descent.
...[snip]...
Consequently, your youngest child must first be registered as British to obtain a British passport.

Thanks for the clarification. I thought as much so will go the registration route first.
Why do they make these rules/laws so ambiguous?

[noajthan]

...

My certificate of registration shows this information.(Upper caps are how it's typed on the certificate, not shouting):

HOME OFFICE
British Nationality Act 1981
Certificate of Registration
as a
BRITISH CITIZEN
The Secretary of State, in.exercise of the powers conferred by the British Nationality Act of 1981, has registered the person named below as a
BRITISH CITIZEN

...

Certificate #: xxxxxxx Date: xx July 2003
Reference #: Rxxxxxxx Section: 4C
BRITISH CITIZEN

Some folks say I am a UK citizen by registration and not descent. Others say it is by descent even though certificate says registration — thus the reason for the whole confusion in the first place: wondering if I can apply for a UK passport for my USA born child (born in 2008) directly or if they have to be regslistered as a citizen first (form MN1 I believe), then apply for UK passport.

You have bee registered as a citizen by descent under section 4C of BNA (as stated on your Certificate).

7.1.4 Registration under s.4C gives British citizenship by descent

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... apter7.pdf

[ohara]

You are a British citizen by descent. It doesn't matter that it was through registration.