EU1A application: it appears that they don't have a clue

[a.s.b.o]

about what exactly they do. Unless I am terribly wrong. Any comments?

My email:

This is further to the EU1A application in relation to dependent family
members of an EEA national. I am Irish national and reside in UK. Upon
returning to Ireland, as per guidance, I will be treated as an EEA national
for purposes of bringing my dependent family members who are residing with
me in UK. They are in possession of Residence Cards of an EEA family
member.

As per guidance, I need to demonstrate their dependence on me. This was
done and promulgated at the UK Immigration Tribunal, as the consequence of
which my parents received their UK-issued residence cards. Therefore, they
have been clearly dependent on me in order to satisfy their issuance and
entry into UK. My query is whether the same dependence needs to be
demonstrated for the period of their post-entry into UK. As members of my
household they are entitled to work and I want to know if this would impede
their acceptance as my dependent family members for purposes of returning
to Ireland.

INIS response:

If you are claiming that your parents are dependent on you, you must
demonstrate this in Ireland.

The fact that they have been recognised in the UK has no bearing on the
application.

If your parents intend to work in Ireland, then they cannot be regarded as
dependent.


Best regards,

xxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx
EU Treaty Rights Unit
Residence Division
Irish Naturalisation & Immigration Service
13-14 Burgh Quay
Dublin 2

[noajthan]

about what exactly they do. Unless I am terribly wrong. Any comments?

My email:

...
...

INIS response:

If you are claiming that your parents are dependent on you, you must
demonstrate this in Ireland.

The fact that they have been recognised in the UK has no bearing on the
application.

If your parents intend to work in Ireland, then they cannot be regarded as
dependent.

...
...

Name removed to protect the innocent.

Indeed.
Case law: Reyes:

Court stated that family members cannot be required to prove that they have searched for a job in the country of origin and that whether they will eventually manage to find employment in the host Member State is an irrelevant factor with regards to the interpretation of ‘dependant’

Ref: http://europeanlawblog.eu/?p=2329

[a.s.b.o]

Name removed to protect the innocent.

Indeed.
Case law: Reyes:

Court stated that family members cannot be required to prove that they have searched for a job in the country of origin and that whether they will eventually manage to find employment in the host Member State is an irrelevant factor with regards to the interpretation of ‘dependant’

Ref: http://europeanlawblog.eu/?p=2329

Innocent??? If I was a judge in the court of stupidity I would find him guilty on all charges )))) funny, if not sad.

Ok, so reading Reyes would indicate that Ireland would accept them as my dependents? Is this in any way contingent on their employment/ not engagement into employment while stile in UK? Thanks

PS To demonstrate that I do my homework, it appears that my case would relate to the second point of Reyes. Can you please affirm that to ensure that I am clear as to my precise stance. Thank you

[noajthan]

...Innocent??? If I was a judge in the court of stupidity I would find him guilty on all charges )))) funny, if not sad.

Ok, so reading Reyes would indicate that Ireland would accept them as my dependents? Is this in any way contingent on their employment/ not engagement into employment while stile in UK? Thanks

PS To demonstrate that I do my homework, it appears that my case would relate to the second point of Reyes. Can you please affirm that to ensure that I am clear as to my precise stance. Thank you

My understanding aligns with yours, especially regarding relevance of second point.

My further understanding is that you will need to demonstrate your dependents' financial/emotional dependency &/or membership of your household in the last country you (all, including your dependents) resided in prior to your home country (in your case Eire).
This is not necessarily the country of birth if you and parents have lived elsewhere.

Although case law of Pedro ruled that dependency can arise as a matter of fact not as a matter of history.
ie if parents were in your country & then suddenly became dependent on you.
(Of course that begs the question of how they would have achieved entry into Eire in the first place - that set of circumstances is more likely for EEA parents rather than non-EEA parents).

More on Reyes here:
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/cjeu-de ... n-of-fact/

The following scenarios seem to be totally out of order & inadmissible....
Questions such as could they work in home country; if so why don't they.
And:
Will they work in future - if they can/could then they are not dependents.
In other words motive and personal choices don't come into the determination of whether someone is a dependent (or can't be used against them).

[a.s.b.o]

...Innocent??? If I was a judge in the court of stupidity I would find him guilty on all charges )))) funny, if not sad.

Ok, so reading Reyes would indicate that Ireland would accept them as my dependents? Is this in any way contingent on their employment/ not engagement into employment while stile in UK? Thanks

PS To demonstrate that I do my homework, it appears that my case would relate to the second point of Reyes. Can you please affirm that to ensure that I am clear as to my precise stance. Thank you

My understanding aligns with yours, especially regarding relevance of second point.

My further understanding is that you will need to demonstrate your dependents' financial/emotional dependency &/or membership of your household in the last country you (all, including your dependents) resided in prior to your home country (in your case Eire).
This is not necessarily the country of birth if you and parents have lived elsewhere.

Although case law of Pedro ruled that dependency can arise as a matter of fact not as a matter of history.
ie if parents were in your country & then suddenly became dependent on you.
(Of course that begs the question of how they would have achieved entry into Eire in the first place - that set of circumstances is more likely for EEA parents rather than non-EEA parents).

I think to simplify this, my parents were dependent on me while in Russia (to then gain entry into UK based on this) where I reside. Following that, they became the members of my household in UK. So, to boil it down, the question is of necessity to remain financially dependent on me in order to gain entry into Ireland under SS (Meetock ?! in Irish case)?

Thank you

[a.s.b.o]

parade of stupidity continues (oh, how I miss my second home!!!):

My response to (stupidity Number 1):

With all due respect, it appears that this position does not take ECJ
Judgement in C‑423/12 Reyes vs. Migrationverket (16 January 2014) into
consideration. This is surprising because it clearly contradicts to the
view you have given. Can I ask you to respond in the view of Reyes?


"As regards the second question, the Court states that any prospects of
obtaining work in the host Member State, which would result in the family
member no longer being depended on the Union citizen, cannot affect the
interpretation of the condition of being a ‘dependant’. A different
approach would in practice discourage family members from looking for
employment in the host Member State, which would contradict Art. 23 of the
Directive that clearly provides family members with a right to employment
and self-employment"

See more at: http://europeanlawblog.eu/?p=2329#sthash.XGhUrsbX.dpuf"


Thank you

Response (INIS, aka stupidity square):

Dear XXX

A decision will be made based on the documentation on file at that time.


Best regards,

xxxxx x xxxxxxxxx
Residence Division
Irish Naturalisation & Immigration Service
13-14 Burgh Quay
Dublin 2

PS I leave names in. We should know ones who are in charge but not sure themselves of what in.

[noajthan]

PS I leave names in. We should know ones who are in charge but not sure themselves of what in.

Details removed - kindly refrain from posting such names.

Whatever your thoughts about this official (& I'm beginning to get the picture) he is only a functionary in a bigger machine;
he is also unable to readily defend himself here.

By all means post the responses & the office they emanate from - but leave the individual out of it.

[a.s.b.o]

PS I leave names in. We should know ones who are in charge but not sure themselves of what in.

Details removed - kindly refrain from posting such names.

Whatever your thoughts about this official (& I'm beginning to get the picture) he is only a functionary in a bigger machine;
he is also unable to readily defend himself here.

By all means post the responses & the office they emanate from - but leave the individual out of it.

Ok.

Can you hint as to the current stance of INIS. I am not sure if you are familiar with the Irish practice. But it boils down to bringing my parents back to Ireland and I cannot tease out how/what changes affected my ability to do so. Previously, if read correctly, upon my return to Ireland my parents obtain a residence card for 5 years and at which point their residence is not 'attached' to my residence (i.e. exercising treaty rights in my own country of citizenship). Their residence with me in NI will count them in as members of my household. Their employment in UK (casual, given their health) is irrelevant. I guess what I am aiming at in corresponding with INIS - and clearly fail - is to get the jist of the new changes affecting the key aspects i have just outlined.

Thank you for that.

[noajthan]

...

Ok.

Can you hint as to the current stance of INIS. I am not sure if you are familiar with the Irish practice. But it boils down to bringing my parents back to Ireland and I cannot tease out how/what changes affected my ability to do so. Previously, if read correctly, upon my return to Ireland my parents obtain a residence card for 5 years and at which point their residence is not 'attached' to my residence (i.e. exercising treaty rights in my own country of citizenship). Their residence with me in NI will count them in as members of my household. Their employment in UK (casual, given their health) is irrelevant. I guess what I am aiming at in corresponding with INIS - and clearly fail - is to get the jist of the new changes affecting the key aspects i have just outlined.

Thank you for that.

Other members have more experience of the situation in Ireland.

But you have clearly been receiving robotic messages from that office; responses which will not stand up when measured against EU case law.

Yes your parents' activity/employment in UK is immaterial. Whether or not they (choose to) work in future is immaterial.
What is critical is the matter of fact of dependency - not the whys & wherefores.

I don't know abut impact of recent changes (if you mean what's been coming out of Europe in past days) but nothing is implemented anywhere yet.
If perhaps you mean some other changes (specific to Ireland?) they still need to align with and be compatible with current EU law in the end.

[notrouble]

about what exactly they do. Unless I am terribly wrong. Any comments?

My email:

This is further to the EU1A application in relation to dependent family
members of an EEA national. I am Irish national and reside in UK. Upon
returning to Ireland, as per guidance, I will be treated as an EEA national
for purposes of bringing my dependent family members who are residing with
me in UK. They are in possession of Residence Cards of an EEA family
member.

As per guidance, I need to demonstrate their dependence on me. This was
done and promulgated at the UK Immigration Tribunal, as the consequence of
which my parents received their UK-issued residence cards. Therefore, they
have been clearly dependent on me in order to satisfy their issuance and
entry into UK. My query is whether the same dependence needs to be
demonstrated for the period of their post-entry into UK. As members of my
household they are entitled to work and I want to know if this would impede
their acceptance as my dependent family members for purposes of returning
to Ireland.

INIS response:

If you are claiming that your parents are dependent on you, you must
demonstrate this in Ireland.

The fact that they have been recognised in the UK has no bearing on the
application.

If your parents intend to work in Ireland, then they cannot be regarded as
dependent.


Best regards,

xxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx
EU Treaty Rights Unit
Residence Division
Irish Naturalisation & Immigration Service
13-14 Burgh Quay
Dublin 2

But does it mean that if one's parents are not dependant on their EU citizen child (or the Irish authorities do not want to see it this way), the parents would then be considered by the Irish authorities as 'permitted relatives'?

The EU Directive reads (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 123:en:PDF):

2. Without prejudice to any right to free movement and residence the persons concerned may have in their own right, the host Member State shall, in accordance with its national legislation, facilitate entry and residence for the following persons:
(a) any other family members, irrespective of their nationality, not falling under the definition in point 2 of Article 2 who, in the country from which they have come, are dependants or members of the household of the Union citizen having the primary right of residence, or where serious health grounds strictly require the personal care of the family member by the Union citizen;